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Nuts and Bolts of a Green New Deal

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Thoughts on a free-market oriented Green New Deal?

US citizen: support
18
32%
US citizen: oppose
11
19%
US citizen: mixed
8
14%
Non-US: support
14
25%
Non-US: oppose
5
9%
Non-US: mixed
1
2%
 
Total votes : 57

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Pagan Trapistan
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Founded: Jan 12, 2019
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Postby Pagan Trapistan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:16 pm

The free market hasnt been a force for innovation, that was the military that started the internet. All the market did was create a big ass bubble and a bunch of media platforms that censor themselves to death. That shit is just wrong.

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Achidyemay
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Postby Achidyemay » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:26 pm

The focus is too much on what the people in DC will do, which as near as I can tell, have never had any bearing in my life. Right now multiple states have decided to enact resolutions to keep themselves in line with the Paris accords, even though they never signed anything. Cities too are constantly rolling out green programs. And as long as it is fashionable, businesses will want to be green because they can use it in advertising.

Putting programs like this through congress is a long shot, but modifying the proposal so that it is personalized and effective for each state, I wouldn't be surprised by a 65% adoption rate.
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Pagan Trapistan
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Founded: Jan 12, 2019
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Postby Pagan Trapistan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:31 pm

Yes but it would be simpler to just have the state start rolling out solar panels.

You may not like the state, but the political system will run a lot better once some Chinese systems are implemented to sort this shit out.

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Liriena
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:32 pm

Pagan Trapistan wrote:The free market hasnt been a force for innovation, that was the military that started the internet. All the market did was create a big ass bubble and a bunch of media platforms that censor themselves to death. That shit is just wrong.

State-funded research gave us the components to create the iPhone. The free market gave us the marketing-fueled yearly ritual of buying an only marginally upgraded version of it while trying to ignore the fact that the factory making them has suicide prevention nets.
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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:34 pm

Liriena wrote:
Pagan Trapistan wrote:The free market hasnt been a force for innovation, that was the military that started the internet. All the market did was create a big ass bubble and a bunch of media platforms that censor themselves to death. That shit is just wrong.

State-funded research gave us the components to create the iPhone. The free market gave us the marketing-fueled yearly ritual of buying an only marginally upgraded version of it while trying to ignore the fact that the factory making them has suicide prevention nets.


I certainly don't see those space exploration companies do anything useful aside from basic deliveries into orbit (which NASA, a state-owned organization, began) and worthless publicity stunts.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:37 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Liriena wrote:State-funded research gave us the components to create the iPhone. The free market gave us the marketing-fueled yearly ritual of buying an only marginally upgraded version of it while trying to ignore the fact that the factory making them has suicide prevention nets.


I certainly don't see those space exploration companies do anything useful aside from basic deliveries into orbit (which NASA, a state-owned organization, began) and worthless publicity stunts.

Elon Musk is the worst daddy
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

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Western Vale Confederacy
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Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:40 pm

Liriena wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
I certainly don't see those space exploration companies do anything useful aside from basic deliveries into orbit (which NASA, a state-owned organization, began) and worthless publicity stunts.

Elon Musk is the worst daddy


He's got charisma and a machine already going, but where is the initiative? The innovation!?

Don't send cars into space, send us to bloody Mars already!

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Pagan Trapistan
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Postby Pagan Trapistan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:49 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:I certainly don't see those space exploration companies do anything useful aside from basic deliveries into orbit (which NASA, a state-owned organization, began) and worthless publicity stunts.

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html

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Achidyemay
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Posts: 1633
Founded: Oct 14, 2013
New York Times Democracy

Postby Achidyemay » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:59 pm

Pagan Trapistan wrote:Yes but it would be simpler to just have the state start rolling out solar panels.

You may not like the state, but the political system will run a lot better once some Chinese systems are implemented to sort this shit out.

The state can give me solar panels, that's cool, but let me install them please, I am the steward of this land, I know where they should and shouldn't go. When the government eminent domains, things always get messy.
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Pagan Trapistan
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Founded: Jan 12, 2019
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Postby Pagan Trapistan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:13 pm

Achidyemay wrote:The state can give me solar panels, that's cool, but let me install them please, I am the steward of this land, I know where they should and shouldn't go. When the government eminent domains, things always get messy.

Sure, the state should work with people.

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Novus America
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Posts: 21246
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:08 pm

Pagan Trapistan wrote:Yes but it would be simpler to just have the state start rolling out solar panels.

You may not like the state, but the political system will run a lot better once some Chinese systems are implemented to sort this shit out.


Rapant corruption, slave labor, and dumping dangerous by-products of the manufacturing process into rivers?
No thanks.

We should make our own solar panels, and make them in a more sustainable manner.

Carbon emissions are not the only source of pollution, and not always the worst.
China has a horrible environmental record. Sure they have made some recent positive steps, but still refuse to reign in overcapacity of their zombie companies.

But solar alone will not solve the problem.
It takes up too much space and uses up to many resources, plus is not reliable enough.

The most reliable and most environmentally friendly power source is nuclear, it uses the least amount of resources and land per unit of power produced.
Last edited by Novus America on Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:10 pm

Liriena wrote:
Pagan Trapistan wrote:The free market hasnt been a force for innovation, that was the military that started the internet. All the market did was create a big ass bubble and a bunch of media platforms that censor themselves to death. That shit is just wrong.

State-funded research gave us the components to create the iPhone. The free market gave us the marketing-fueled yearly ritual of buying an only marginally upgraded version of it while trying to ignore the fact that the factory making them has suicide prevention nets.


But with just the state alone they would not exist. We have public/private partnerships for a reason.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Auze
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Founded: Oct 31, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Auze » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:39 pm

Novus America wrote:
Pagan Trapistan wrote:Yes but it would be simpler to just have the state start rolling out solar panels.

You may not like the state, but the political system will run a lot better once some Chinese systems are implemented to sort this shit out.


Rapant corruption, slave labor, and dumping dangerous by-products of the manufacturing process into rivers?
No thanks.

We should make our own solar panels, and make them in a more sustainable manner.

Carbon emissions are not the only source of pollution, and not always the worst.
China has a horrible environmental record. Sure they have made some recent positive steps, but still refuse to reign in overcapacity of their zombie companies.

But solar alone will not solve the problem.
It takes up too much space and uses up to many resources, plus is not reliable enough.

The most reliable and most environmentally friendly power source is nuclear, it uses the least amount of resources and land per unit of power produced.

You are mistaken about the amount of land needed for renewables. Not only that but you seem to ignore the construction time and costs of nuclear power plants, as well as the requirement for a fuel that high quality ore for minimum waste or carbon is in not very high supply. Nuclear may serve a purpose, but not nearly as much as renewables can.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:46 pm

Auze wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Rapant corruption, slave labor, and dumping dangerous by-products of the manufacturing process into rivers?
No thanks.

We should make our own solar panels, and make them in a more sustainable manner.

Carbon emissions are not the only source of pollution, and not always the worst.
China has a horrible environmental record. Sure they have made some recent positive steps, but still refuse to reign in overcapacity of their zombie companies.

But solar alone will not solve the problem.
It takes up too much space and uses up to many resources, plus is not reliable enough.

The most reliable and most environmentally friendly power source is nuclear, it uses the least amount of resources and land per unit of power produced.

You are mistaken about the amount of land needed for renewables. Not only that but you seem to ignore the construction time and costs of nuclear power plants, as well as the requirement for a fuel that high quality ore for minimum waste or carbon is in not very high supply. Nuclear may serve a purpose, but not nearly as much as renewables can.


Your source does not compare nuclear with wind.
Nuclear uses far less land than any other source.
http://environmentalprogress.org/why-cl ... in-crisis/
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... ormat=750w
https://www.science20.com/cool_science/ ... ric-155642
Nuclear has the lowest impact overall, even acounging for the cost of mining and waste.
Last edited by Novus America on Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Achidyemay
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Founded: Oct 14, 2013
New York Times Democracy

Postby Achidyemay » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:47 pm

Auze wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Rapant corruption, slave labor, and dumping dangerous by-products of the manufacturing process into rivers?
No thanks.

We should make our own solar panels, and make them in a more sustainable manner.

Carbon emissions are not the only source of pollution, and not always the worst.
China has a horrible environmental record. Sure they have made some recent positive steps, but still refuse to reign in overcapacity of their zombie companies.

But solar alone will not solve the problem.
It takes up too much space and uses up to many resources, plus is not reliable enough.

The most reliable and most environmentally friendly power source is nuclear, it uses the least amount of resources and land per unit of power produced.

You are mistaken about the amount of land needed for renewables. Not only that but you seem to ignore the construction time and costs of nuclear power plants, as well as the requirement for a fuel that high quality ore for minimum waste or carbon is in not very high supply. Nuclear may serve a purpose, but not nearly as much as renewables can.

I would add that we still have no clue what to do with the waste and for the most part we just sort of barrel it up
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Novus America
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
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Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:54 pm

Achidyemay wrote:
Auze wrote:You are mistaken about the amount of land needed for renewables. Not only that but you seem to ignore the construction time and costs of nuclear power plants, as well as the requirement for a fuel that high quality ore for minimum waste or carbon is in not very high supply. Nuclear may serve a purpose, but not nearly as much as renewables can.

I would add that we still have no clue what to do with the waste and for the most part we just sort of barrel it up


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... lanet/amp/
All power sources produce waste, but nuclear produces only a tiny amount compared to the power produced. Production of solar panels creates far more toxic waste.

Barreling up nuclear waste harms no one.

Or we could reprocess it into more fuel.

Any Green plan or goals that do not treat nuclear as a clean fuel and granted the same status as other clean fuels is a bad plan.
Last edited by Novus America on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Imperializt Russia
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Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:48 am

Pagan Trapistan wrote:Carbon tax is pointless. If they're doing something economically productive, and you want to go green, tax them normally and put it toward solar panels (or other technology). Don't punish productivity (carbon), just use said productivity to fuel progress and less-polluting technology (instead of badly made jets).

China was massively subsidizing solar panels long before talking about a minor carbon tax late 2017, and thats the sensible way to do it. They might have a ways to go environmentally, but they've been putting more into it than the U.S..

Shaping the market is nonsense. The market just goes to Indian telemarketets. You only want the market at all to ramp up development before going technosocialism.

Thats what China does. (Okay maybe not but I can dream)

Technically, no such thing as a "carbon tax" exists. It's not a government levy, it's not even a system of fines. The term, obviously, comes from what stuck from opponents of the scheme because taxes all sound mean and scary.

Carbon taxes specifically allow companies to trade with each other for carbon credits. Everyone starts at the nominal level and then low-polluting firms get to sell their excess credits to the exchange, allowing bigger polluters to buy those credits suitable to their needs and "allowing" them to emit that much.

Because the credits continually renew, bigger polluters have to keep shelling out for the 'right' to pollute. If they breach their carbon credits, then they get fined by the regulatory body.
They then choose to find means to reduce their pollution and footprint, so they have to spend less money in the exchange.

The money generated through the exchange can be used basically however the government wants it to, but in Australia iirc it was used to subsidise the energy bills of taxpayers and to part-fund measures allowing industries to reduce their footprint.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:50 am

Achidyemay wrote:I would add that we still have no clue what to do with the waste and for the most part we just sort of barrel it up

And?
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
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Arlenton
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Postby Arlenton » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:18 pm

"Green" doesn't quite seem very "industrial". Quotes in the OP don't have me convinced.

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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:37 am

Arlenton wrote:"Green" doesn't quite seem very "industrial". Quotes in the OP don't have me convinced.


Most "green deals" fail horribly because they somehow decide that nuclear and hydroelectric (literally THE two most efficient green power sources) power is either too dangerous or too destructive, and thus go for alternate means of electricity generation that are too expensive, too situational/unreliable, or experimental.

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Confederate States of German America
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Founded: Dec 04, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Confederate States of German America » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:02 am

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Arlenton wrote:"Green" doesn't quite seem very "industrial". Quotes in the OP don't have me convinced.


Most "green deals" fail horribly because they somehow decide that nuclear and hydroelectric (literally THE two most efficient green power sources) power is either too dangerous or too destructive, and thus go for alternate means of electricity generation that are too expensive, too situational/unreliable, or experimental.


I use to be a big advocate for Space Based Solar Power until I realized doing such means you're effectively creating a new breed of WMD weapons.
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Western Vale Confederacy
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:50 am

Confederate States of German America wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Most "green deals" fail horribly because they somehow decide that nuclear and hydroelectric (literally THE two most efficient green power sources) power is either too dangerous or too destructive, and thus go for alternate means of electricity generation that are too expensive, too situational/unreliable, or experimental.


I use to be a big advocate for Space Based Solar Power until I realized doing such means you're effectively creating a new breed of WMD weapons.


German sun gun...

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Imperializt Russia
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Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:49 am

Confederate States of German America wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Most "green deals" fail horribly because they somehow decide that nuclear and hydroelectric (literally THE two most efficient green power sources) power is either too dangerous or too destructive, and thus go for alternate means of electricity generation that are too expensive, too situational/unreliable, or experimental.


I use to be a big advocate for Space Based Solar Power until I realized doing such means you're effectively creating a new breed of WMD weapons.

Space based solar solves the issues of weather and (ground level) dirt, but introduces the new challenge of transmission.

It really is not viable.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
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Esternial
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Founded: May 09, 2009
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Esternial » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:08 am

Novus America wrote:
Achidyemay wrote:I would add that we still have no clue what to do with the waste and for the most part we just sort of barrel it up


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... lanet/amp/
All power sources produce waste, but nuclear produces only a tiny amount compared to the power produced. Production of solar panels creates far more toxic waste.

Barreling up nuclear waste harms no one.

Or we could reprocess it into more fuel.

Any Green plan or goals that do not treat nuclear as a clean fuel and granted the same status as other clean fuels is a bad plan.

Indeed, newer generations of nuclear power plants can use radioactive waste from older variants as fuel.

Improving the technology behind nuclear fission reactors to increase overall efficiency is a green and worthwhile investment.

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Imperializt Russia
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Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:15 am

Esternial wrote:
Novus America wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... lanet/amp/
All power sources produce waste, but nuclear produces only a tiny amount compared to the power produced. Production of solar panels creates far more toxic waste.

Barreling up nuclear waste harms no one.

Or we could reprocess it into more fuel.

Any Green plan or goals that do not treat nuclear as a clean fuel and granted the same status as other clean fuels is a bad plan.

Indeed, newer generations of nuclear power plants can use radioactive waste from older variants as fuel.

Improving the technology behind nuclear fission reactors to increase overall efficiency is a green and worthwhile investment.

Well, there's nothing generational about it, fast reactors aren't much younger than thermal reactors.

Fast reactors have serious commercial and legislative hurdles. Namely, NPT issues. They are "efficient" in that they can close the fuel cycle and have interesting properties.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
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