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Denver and New York State Bans Conversion Therapy

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Boy George
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Postby Boy George » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
You can't debate the effectiveness of chiropractic if you have any respect for science. It is kind of helpful for temporarily addressing back pain, almost as helpful as getting a massage in fact, but every claim about improving health and wellbeing including helping scoliosis. People are injured, paralyzed, and killed receiving adjustments.


Sure. Why are we talking about chiropractic, exactly?

Chiropractic isn't part of institutionalized religious dogma that has ingrained an ignorant pseudo-scientific practice into ritual itself.

If chiropractic were as hotly contested an issue as conversion therapy, there would be... ANYBODY talking about it.


It was brought up as a parallel, about parental choice involving medical treatments without real scientific basis.

I personally do respect science, but lets face it, that doesn't stop people debating things. Unfortunately the case people make for conversion therapy is based on pseudoscience which they sadly believe, otherwise the entire subject could have been settled on science alone.

I mean in my own personal world, where reality doesn't exist, I would attempt to convert all of those poor brainwashed religious fanatics. But at the end of the day that would make me a hypocrite.

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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
The same reason we haven't driven all the chiropractors into the sea.


What is the equivalence?

Chiropractors are a bunch of quacks that we allow people to go to. They don’t do anything of value
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:41 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:Because it doesn't help can hurt and is practiced on children at the behest of their dumb parents by people representing themselves as professionals.

I don't think you can ban one but not both.


Then I'm sure there's a mounting social movement against the social indignities of chiropractic therapy.

Oh what's that. Nobody cares? Des-Bal is only bringing this up to have some kind of counter-point that isn't immediately refutable just to be a contrarian? It only gave him 10 extra seconds?

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Look, Des, I don't disagree chiropractors are charlatans and quacks, but comparing it to conversion therapy is disingenuous and insultingly downplays the impact conversion therapy can have.

They're not even the same kind of pseudo-science. Conversion is religious pseudo-psychology, chiropractic is alternative pseudo-medicine.

I hardly see how he's being contrarian. It seems like he's applying the logic behind banning conversion "therapy" for children to argue that it's consistent to then apply that logic to banning chiropractic for children. It seems reasonable enough to me to say that it's inconsistent to ban one and not the other.
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:43 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Adults can make informed decisions, minors cannot. It's wholly inappropriate to tell adults they can't do something because it may be bad for them.

and very few adults go through it.

I wonder why?
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:47 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
What is the equivalence?

Chiropractors are a bunch of quacks that we allow people to go to. They don’t do anything of value


Chiropractors is a fancy name for masseuses. My masseuse studied it. Sure, it probably didn't make her a better masseuse, but maybe it did, because my back feels great.

Can conversion therapists use their ill-gotten training as said therapists to be slightly better masseuses?

The fact of the matter is, the equivalence you guys are pushing to be contrarian about this ban is not valid at all, because conversion therapy was never about treating a disease, and it never treated a disease.

Yes, chiropractic is a pseudo-science. It isn't at all similar to conversion therapy, and it is nowhere near as destructive, or for that matter, ingrained in Christian fundamentalism.
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:48 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Then I'm sure there's a mounting social movement against the social indignities of chiropractic therapy.

Oh what's that. Nobody cares? Des-Bal is only bringing this up to have some kind of counter-point that isn't immediately refutable just to be a contrarian? It only gave him 10 extra seconds?

Thank you, Lenin's corpse!

(Image)

Look, Des, I don't disagree chiropractors are charlatans and quacks, but comparing it to conversion therapy is disingenuous and insultingly downplays the impact conversion therapy can have.

They're not even the same kind of pseudo-science. Conversion is religious pseudo-psychology, chiropractic is alternative pseudo-medicine.



Whoa sir, watch out! You almost walked right into my fucking point. The REASON there is a rabid objection to conversion therapy but not chiropractic is because it's quackery tied to crystal hippie vitalism rather than scary-preacher organized religion. Because chiropractic doesn't question that homosexuality is both an immutable and benign aspect of who a person is. Say what you want about "torture" and "assault" the real reason people are upset is because people have ideas they don't like.

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Postby Neutraligon » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:48 pm

It should be illegal for children to get conversion therapy. It should be illegal for psychologists and psychiatrists to advertise conversion therapy as a legitimate medical practice.
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Postby Agarntrop » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:50 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:I believe it is totalitarian to ban conversion therapy and that it should remain legal.

Why should children be subject to abuse and possible irreparable physical and emotional harm for something that is not a choice?

For consenting adults only, of course.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:50 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Chiropractors is a fancy name for masseuses. My masseuse studied it. Sure, it probably didn't make her a better masseuse, but maybe it did, because my back feels great.

Can conversion therapists use their ill-gotten training as said therapists to be slightly better masseuses?

The fact of the matter is, the equivalence you guys are pushing to be contrarian about this ban is not valid at all, because conversion therapy was never about treating a disease, and it never treated a disease.

Yes, chiropractic is a pseudo-science. It isn't at all similar to conversion therapy, and it is nowhere near as destructive, or for that matter, ingrained in Christian fundamentalism.


People are injured, paralyzed, and killed by chiropractors. Vertical Subluxation isn't a disease but what conversion therapists have over chiropractors is that homosexuality is real.

We get back to the real issue here, you aren't protecting children you're battling those nasty fundies.
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Boy George
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Postby Boy George » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:50 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Chiropractors are a bunch of quacks that we allow people to go to. They don’t do anything of value


Chiropractors is a fancy name for masseuses. My masseuse studied it. Sure, it probably didn't make her a better masseuse, but maybe it did, because my back feels great.

Can conversion therapists use their ill-gotten training as said therapists to be slightly better masseuses?

The fact of the matter is, the equivalence you guys are pushing to be contrarian about this ban is not valid at all, because conversion therapy was never about treating a disease, and it never treated a disease.

Yes, chiropractic is a pseudo-science. It isn't at all similar to conversion therapy, and it is nowhere near as destructive, or for that matter, ingrained in Christian fundamentalism.


Very true, conversion therapy does not treat a disease at all, it causes disease.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:52 pm

Des-Bal wrote:Say what you want about "torture" and "assault" the real reason people are upset is because people have ideas they don't like.


No, I'm pretty sure it's because you're upset that your pseudo-science has been labeled as such.

Hey, start a campaign against chiropractic. Maybe you'll be successful if it's just as bad as conversion therapy.

I'm sure there's plenty of people out there whose lives have been ruined by a chiropractor. (づ◔ ͜ʖ◔)づ
Last edited by The Rich Port on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Azurius » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:56 pm

Scomagia wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Then I'm sure there's a mounting social movement against the social indignities of chiropractic therapy.

Oh what's that. Nobody cares? Des-Bal is only bringing this up to have some kind of counter-point that isn't immediately refutable just to be a contrarian? It only gave him 10 extra seconds?

Thank you, Lenin's corpse!

Image

Look, Des, I don't disagree chiropractors are charlatans and quacks, but comparing it to conversion therapy is disingenuous and insultingly downplays the impact conversion therapy can have.

They're not even the same kind of pseudo-science. Conversion is religious pseudo-psychology, chiropractic is alternative pseudo-medicine.

I hardly see how he's being contrarian. It seems like he's applying the logic behind banning conversion "therapy" for children to argue that it's consistent to then apply that logic to banning chiropractic for children. It seems reasonable enough to me to say that it's inconsistent to ban one and not the other.


1: Chiropractice is safe as long as practictioners don´t mess with the spine or neck, which is why for instance Germany is debatting to ban manipulation of neck and spine by chiropractictioners rather then outright ban it, since chiropractice can be an effective alternative treatment for stiffness or cramps for instance, but gets dangerous as soon as practicioners mess with the neck or spine. This btw. is hard science, as well as the fact that manipulation of the neck can indeed lead to a stroke or other implacations, science again. Science also clearly states that besides reliefing aching muscles, chiropractice has no validated effects either, but that´s off the point since people are free to ingest as much snake oil as they want too.

He is comparing apples and oranges here.

2: Conversion theraphy is entirely harmfull even when "only" practiced psychological, there is literaly no benefit here but only harm, harm and more harm. That and mounting costs for our healthcare systems which are entirely avoidable, not to mention that lives are saved this way(suicide).

I´ll give you an example: You are free to speak your mind or even practice quackery, so long as this quackery doesn´t cause any serious harm and that´s where we draw the line in our law system too. Conversion theraphy is just that: Entirely and utterly harmfull quackery, hence it´s banned and rightfully so too. Just like we ban dangerous medication/only give them when there is no other choice. Conversion theraphy is more equivalent to an outdated cancer medication that has been banned due to side-effects and the fact that better alternatives exist.

3: You also leave out the clear moral aspects of this. You are literaly allowing humans to degrade other humans(via conversion theraphy). I don´t know about your laws but here these kinds of things are banned by our constitution. Telling them they are "wrong", "worthless", "an error of nature" etc. goes against at least 2 if not more constitutional laws in my country. And a dozen or more if you worse force a child into it.

Comparing chiropractice to conversion theraphy is indeed a very bad match.

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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:59 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure it's because you're upset that your pseudo-science has been labeled as such.

Hey, start a campaign against chiropractic. Maybe you'll be successful if it's just as bad as conversion therapy.

I'm sure there's plenty of people out there whose lives have been ruined by a chiropractor. (づ◔ ͜ʖ◔)づ



I hate religion and I like gay people, I'm not sure why you think that this is "my" pseudoscience or why I'm upset by it's labeling as such. I have never by word or deed implied that gay conversion therapy works or confers any benefits. My entire point is that it's quackery and that it should be treated the same as any other stupid, ineffective, and potentially harmful pseudoscience.

There are plenty of people whose lives have been ruined by a chiropractor, you know because of permanent injury, paralysis, and death.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:03 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure it's because you're upset that your pseudo-science has been labeled as such.

Hey, start a campaign against chiropractic. Maybe you'll be successful if it's just as bad as conversion therapy.

I'm sure there's plenty of people out there whose lives have been ruined by a chiropractor. (づ◔ ͜ʖ◔)づ



I hate religion and I like gay people, I'm not sure why you think that this is "my" pseudoscience or why I'm upset by it's labeling as such. I have never by word or deed implied that gay conversion therapy works or confers any benefits. My entire point is that it's quackery and that it should be treated the same as any other stupid, ineffective, and potentially harmful pseudoscience.

There are plenty of people whose lives have been ruined by a chiropractor, you know because of permanent injury, paralysis, and death.


So you're just being contrarian because you hate the tyranny of banning something that has done absolutely nothing to better humankind, because we haven't banned the other thing that has done nothing to better humankind, ergo it is hypocritical to put a stop to it?

Rather than campaign to simply put a stop to the other pseudo-science?

Instead of being productive and starting a thread about how chiropractors are charlatans and quacks, you instead argue that this decision should be reversed. Because it is... A prelude to tyranny?
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:07 pm

Azurius wrote:1: Chiropractice is safe as long as practictioners don´t mess with the spine or neck, which is why for instance Germany is debatting to ban manipulation of neck and spine by chiropractictioners rather then outright ban it, since chiropractice can be an effective alternative treatment for stiffness or cramps for instance, but gets dangerous as soon as practicioners mess with the neck or spine. This btw. is hard science, as well as the fact that manipulation of the neck can indeed lead to a stroke or other implacations, science again. Science also clearly states that besides reliefing aching muscles, chiropractice has no validated effects either, but that´s off the point since people are free to ingest as much snake oil as they want too.

He is comparing apples and oranges here.

2: Conversion theraphy is entirely harmfull even when "only" practiced psychological, there is literaly no benefit here but only harm, harm and more harm. That and mounting costs for our healthcare systems which are entirely avoidable, not to mention that lives are saved this way(suicide).

I´ll give you an example: You are free to speak your mind or even practice quackery, so long as this quackery doesn´t cause any serious harm and that´s where we draw the line in our law system too. Conversion theraphy is just that: Entirely and utterly harmfull quackery, hence it´s banned and rightfully so too. Just like we ban dangerous medication/only give them when there is no other choice. Conversion theraphy is more equivalent to an outdated cancer medication that has been banned due to side-effects and the fact that better alternatives exist.

3: You also leave out the clear moral aspects of this. You are literaly allowing humans to degrade other humans(via conversion theraphy). I don´t know about your laws but here these kinds of things are banned by our constitution. Telling them they are "wrong", "worthless", "an error of nature" etc. goes against at least 2 if not more constitutional laws in my country. And a dozen or more if you worse force a child into it.

Comparing chiropractice to conversion theraphy is indeed a very bad match.


Points one and two don't really amount to much, it's not helpful and it's often harmful- that's precisely why the comparison works. Given that spine and neck manipulation are not banned in denver I don't see what you're getting at.

To point three I'll say that Germany's policies on controlling the thoughts and opinions of people are nothing to aspire to.
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:11 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Azurius wrote:1: Chiropractice is safe as long as practictioners don´t mess with the spine or neck, which is why for instance Germany is debatting to ban manipulation of neck and spine by chiropractictioners rather then outright ban it, since chiropractice can be an effective alternative treatment for stiffness or cramps for instance, but gets dangerous as soon as practicioners mess with the neck or spine. This btw. is hard science, as well as the fact that manipulation of the neck can indeed lead to a stroke or other implacations, science again. Science also clearly states that besides reliefing aching muscles, chiropractice has no validated effects either, but that´s off the point since people are free to ingest as much snake oil as they want too.

He is comparing apples and oranges here.

2: Conversion theraphy is entirely harmfull even when "only" practiced psychological, there is literaly no benefit here but only harm, harm and more harm. That and mounting costs for our healthcare systems which are entirely avoidable, not to mention that lives are saved this way(suicide).

I´ll give you an example: You are free to speak your mind or even practice quackery, so long as this quackery doesn´t cause any serious harm and that´s where we draw the line in our law system too. Conversion theraphy is just that: Entirely and utterly harmfull quackery, hence it´s banned and rightfully so too. Just like we ban dangerous medication/only give them when there is no other choice. Conversion theraphy is more equivalent to an outdated cancer medication that has been banned due to side-effects and the fact that better alternatives exist.

3: You also leave out the clear moral aspects of this. You are literaly allowing humans to degrade other humans(via conversion theraphy). I don´t know about your laws but here these kinds of things are banned by our constitution. Telling them they are "wrong", "worthless", "an error of nature" etc. goes against at least 2 if not more constitutional laws in my country. And a dozen or more if you worse force a child into it.

Comparing chiropractice to conversion theraphy is indeed a very bad match.


Points one and two don't really amount to much, it's not helpful and it's often harmful- that's precisely why the comparison works. Given that spine and neck manipulation are not banned in denver I don't see what you're getting at.

To point three I'll say that Germany's policies on controlling the thoughts and opinions of people are nothing to aspire to.


Which again, is why there are a bunch of people harmed by these damn hippies and their chiropractors creating movements to ban it, right?

Also, yes, those damn Germans and them keeping the Nazis suppressed and subjugated. Pretty soon there's gonna be a white race holocaust, amirite.
Last edited by The Rich Port on Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:11 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
So you're just being contrarian because you hate the tyranny of banning something that has done absolutely nothing to better humankind, because we haven't banned the other thing that has done nothing to better humankind, ergo it is hypocritical to put a stop to it?

Rather than campaign to simply put a stop to the other pseudo-science?

Instead of being productive and starting a thread about how chiropractors are charlatans and quacks, you instead argue that this decision should be reversed. Because it is... A prelude to tyranny?


I'm sorry but you keep saying "contrarian" when you mean "reaching a different conclusion." You're also almost getting the point quite a bit, the ban here isn't about harm it's ideas and that's evident in the hypocrisy.

I want you to point to where I said the word "tyranny." Go ahead, please you've ascribed it to me twice now it should be easy.
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Postby Hatterleigh » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:12 pm

It would be nice if there was some form of conversion therapy that actually worked and wasn't psychologically damaging.
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Azurius
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Postby Azurius » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:13 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Azurius wrote:1: Chiropractice is safe as long as practictioners don´t mess with the spine or neck, which is why for instance Germany is debatting to ban manipulation of neck and spine by chiropractictioners rather then outright ban it, since chiropractice can be an effective alternative treatment for stiffness or cramps for instance, but gets dangerous as soon as practicioners mess with the neck or spine. This btw. is hard science, as well as the fact that manipulation of the neck can indeed lead to a stroke or other implacations, science again. Science also clearly states that besides reliefing aching muscles, chiropractice has no validated effects either, but that´s off the point since people are free to ingest as much snake oil as they want too.

He is comparing apples and oranges here.

2: Conversion theraphy is entirely harmfull even when "only" practiced psychological, there is literaly no benefit here but only harm, harm and more harm. That and mounting costs for our healthcare systems which are entirely avoidable, not to mention that lives are saved this way(suicide).

I´ll give you an example: You are free to speak your mind or even practice quackery, so long as this quackery doesn´t cause any serious harm and that´s where we draw the line in our law system too. Conversion theraphy is just that: Entirely and utterly harmfull quackery, hence it´s banned and rightfully so too. Just like we ban dangerous medication/only give them when there is no other choice. Conversion theraphy is more equivalent to an outdated cancer medication that has been banned due to side-effects and the fact that better alternatives exist.

3: You also leave out the clear moral aspects of this. You are literaly allowing humans to degrade other humans(via conversion theraphy). I don´t know about your laws but here these kinds of things are banned by our constitution. Telling them they are "wrong", "worthless", "an error of nature" etc. goes against at least 2 if not more constitutional laws in my country. And a dozen or more if you worse force a child into it.

Comparing chiropractice to conversion theraphy is indeed a very bad match.


Points one and two don't really amount to much, it's not helpful and it's often harmful- that's precisely why the comparison works. Given that spine and neck manipulation are not banned in denver I don't see what you're getting at.

To point three I'll say that Germany's policies on controlling the thoughts and opinions of people are nothing to aspire to.


I am pretty sure we have more rights, freedom and democracy then you or many other countries will have for the next decades to come.

And once more as long as neck and spine are not manipulated there are no dangers to chiropractic. I´d like to see scientific data that can underline this. As long as you don´t mess around with the neck or spine chiropractic is about as harmfull as a regular massage.
Last edited by Azurius on Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:13 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
Points one and two don't really amount to much, it's not helpful and it's often harmful- that's precisely why the comparison works. Given that spine and neck manipulation are not banned in denver I don't see what you're getting at.

To point three I'll say that Germany's policies on controlling the thoughts and opinions of people are nothing to aspire to.


Which again, is why there are a bunch of people harmed by these damn hippies and their chiropractors creating movements to ban it, right?

Also, yes, those damn Germans and them keeping the Nazis suppressed and subjugated. Pretty soon there's gonna be a white race holocaust, amirite.

This is not a discussion about chiropractics. Can we please not thread jack?

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San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31243
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:14 pm

Hatterleigh wrote:It would be nice if there was some form of conversion therapy that actually worked and wasn't psychologically damaging.

There isn’t and never will be as it’s not a choice

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Des-Bal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:14 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Which again, is why there are a bunch of people harmed by these damn hippies and their chiropractors creating movements to ban it, right?

Also, yes, those damn Germans and them keeping the Nazis suppressed and subjugated.


No, there aren't movements because the objection to conversion therapy is about ideas not about harm. You are constantly almost following this discussion.

Yep, that's what it is. Germany's speech laws just ban starting the 4th reich.
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Des-Bal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:16 pm

San Lumen wrote:This is not a discussion about chiropractics. Can we please not thread jack?


This is a direct comparison between a harmful psuedoscientific practice people wish to ban and a harmful pseudoscientific practice nobody cares about. We're not exactly off the rails here.
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The Rich Port
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35689
Founded: Jul 29, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:16 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
So you're just being contrarian because you hate the tyranny of banning something that has done absolutely nothing to better humankind, because we haven't banned the other thing that has done nothing to better humankind, ergo it is hypocritical to put a stop to it?

Rather than campaign to simply put a stop to the other pseudo-science?

Instead of being productive and starting a thread about how chiropractors are charlatans and quacks, you instead argue that this decision should be reversed. Because it is... A prelude to tyranny?


I'm sorry but you keep saying "contrarian" when you mean "reaching a different conclusion." You're also almost getting the point quite a bit, the ban here isn't about harm it's ideas and that's evident in the hypocrisy.

I want you to point to where I said the word "tyranny." Go ahead, please you've ascribed it to me twice now it should be easy.


I'm speculating on what your position is, because you haven't been forthcoming about it beyond your contrarianism.

Oh, right, I guess I should specify. Your baseless contrarianism. Thank you for the correction.

If you disagree with conversion therapy on a general level. You've mentioned this opposition to an idea, but you have yet to specify on it.
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Trumptonium1
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:17 pm

If we allow parents to make decisions to <mod removed> because they like pink clothes then I see no reason why parents shouldn't be allowed to do the extreme opposite.

EDIT: Post mod-edited to remove objectionable content.
Last edited by Lamoni on Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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