Denver and New York State Bans Conversion Therapy

[Boy George]

Torture it may be, but it's not assault if it's consented to, much like BDSM isn't for the same reason lol.

Is it torture if it's consented to? I mean, torture does kind of imply an inability to just end the offending actions. If you can stop it whenever you're done, that doesn't really seem like torture to me.

Technically the definition of torture is simply the infliction of pain, I do not think it requires consent. Though of course generally it is not given, since most people revile pain lol.

[San Lumen]

It should be illegal for everyone. Conversion therapy is literal torture and assault.

If it's literal torture and assault we don't need to ban conversion therapy, just torture and assault which are pretty adequately handled by law.

If that would cover it why isn't conversion therapy already illegal?

[Scomagia]

If it's literal torture and assault we don't need to ban conversion therapy, just torture and assault which are pretty adequately handled by law.

If that would cover it why isn't conversion therapy already illegal?

Obviously it fails to meet the legal definitions of either of those terms. For minors, however, both probably apply.

[Sperio]

Hopefully Michigan and NYC will follow in the nation’s steps to ban this form of child abuse


And if Texas or Virgina outlaw it then I’ve seen everything

[Des-Bal]

If that would cover it why isn't conversion therapy already illegal?

Because it's not, by necessity, torture or assault.

[Scomagia]

Is it torture if it's consented to? I mean, torture does kind of imply an inability to just end the offending actions. If you can stop it whenever you're done, that doesn't really seem like torture to me.

Technically the definition of torture is simply the infliction of pain, I do not think it requires consent. Though of course generally it is not given, since most people revile pain lol.

I'm not sure about the legal definition but colloquially, torture has some connotations of lack of consent.

[Boy George]

Technically the definition of torture is simply the infliction of pain, I do not think it requires consent. Though of course generally it is not given, since most people revile pain lol.

I'm not sure about the legal definition but colloquially, torture has some connotations of lack of consent.

I'm not sure about the legal definition either, I was speaking only of the definition in the dictionary. But it certainly does imply a lack of consent. One could just go with the word "pain" maybe.

[Crylante]

It should definitely be illegal; it is an unworkable and highly immoral process.

[Des-Bal]

I'm not sure about the legal definition but colloquially, torture has some connotations of lack of consent.

I've never heard "Torture" used as a legal term when the torturer wasn't the government.

[Agarntrop]

It should definitely be illegal; it is an unworkable and highly immoral process.

I believe it is totalitarian to ban conversion therapy and that it should remain legal.

[Scomagia]

It should definitely be illegal; it is an unworkable and highly immoral process.

You know what's more immoral? Telling individual adults what to do with their own lives because you know better than they do about what will help or harm them.

[Scomagia]

I'm not sure about the legal definition but colloquially, torture has some connotations of lack of consent.

I've never heard "Torture" used as a legal term when the torturer wasn't the government.

Hmm, that's a fair point.

[San Lumen]

It should definitely be illegal; it is an unworkable and highly immoral process.

I believe it is totalitarian to ban conversion therapy and that it should remain legal.

Why should children be subject to abuse and possible irreparable physical and emotional harm for something that is not a choice?

[Des-Bal]

Why should children be subject to abuse and possible irreparable physical and emotional harm for something that is not a choice?

Same reason they can be sent to chiropractors.

[Scomagia]

Why should children be subject to abuse and possible irreparable physical and emotional harm for something that is not a choice?

Same reason they can be sent to chiropractors.

I'd argue that children can't really make an informed decision about chiropractic "medicine", and so it should illegal to practice on them.

[Boy George]

Why should children be subject to abuse and possible irreparable physical and emotional harm for something that is not a choice?

Same reason they can be sent to chiropractors.

For scoliosis?

[Vassenor]

It should definitely be illegal; it is an unworkable and highly immoral process.

I believe it is totalitarian to ban conversion therapy and that it should remain legal.

A practice which has no purpose other than to inflict harm.

[Des-Bal]

For scoliosis?

Because an under-informed or willfully ignorant adult sent them there.

[Boy George]

For scoliosis?

Because an under-informed or willfully ignorant adult sent them there.

That is pretty much true of any choice a parent makes. The part of the law is to help prevent them from sending them into places which cause harm. Though one could debate the effectiveness of chiropractic, I am unaware of any science suggesting its harmful either. Is there? I am genuinely asking, since I really do not know.

[Des-Bal]

That is pretty much true of any choice a parent makes. The part of the law is to help prevent them from sending them into places which cause harm. Though one could debate the effectiveness of chiropractic, I am unaware of any science suggesting its harmful either. Is there? I am genuinely asking, since I really do not know.

You can't debate the effectiveness of chiropractic if you have any respect for science. It is kind of helpful for temporarily addressing back pain, almost as helpful as getting a massage in fact, but every claim about improving health and wellbeing including helping scoliosis. People are injured, paralyzed, and killed receiving adjustments.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

The fact that this repugnant form of child abuse still exists within the majority of US states should serve as a reality check that we have not made anywhere near as much progress than we give ourselves credit for.

In my view, parents who subject their children to conversion therapy are worse than parents who beat the shit out of their kids.

Are you using we as in the people of the United States, or are you referring to all of humanity? I'm asking because I thought you live in Germany. I'm not trying to be snarky; I'm just curious.

---

I support the ban, and I'm against pretty much all forms of religious indoctrination imposed on children. This should be imposed nationwide.

[The Rich Port]

That is pretty much true of any choice a parent makes. The part of the law is to help prevent them from sending them into places which cause harm. Though one could debate the effectiveness of chiropractic, I am unaware of any science suggesting its harmful either. Is there? I am genuinely asking, since I really do not know.

You can't debate the effectiveness of chiropractic if you have any respect for science. It is kind of helpful for temporarily addressing back pain, almost as helpful as getting a massage in fact, but every claim about improving health and wellbeing including helping scoliosis. People are injured, paralyzed, and killed receiving adjustments.

Sure. Why are we talking about chiropractic, exactly?

Chiropractic isn't part of institutionalized religious dogma that has ingrained an ignorant pseudo-scientific practice into ritual itself.

If chiropractic were as hotly contested an issue as conversion therapy, there would be... ANYBODY talking about it.

[Des-Bal]

Sure. Why are we talking about chiropractic, exactly?

Chiropractic isn't part of institutionalized religious dogma that has ingrained an ignorant pseudo-scientific practice into ritual itself.

If chiropractic were as hotly contested an issue as conversion therapy, there would be... ANYBODY talking about it.

Because it doesn't help can hurt and is practiced on children at the behest of their dumb parents by people representing themselves as professionals.

I don't think you can ban one but not both.

[The Rich Port]

Sure. Why are we talking about chiropractic, exactly?

Chiropractic isn't part of institutionalized religious dogma that has ingrained an ignorant pseudo-scientific practice into ritual itself.

If chiropractic were as hotly contested an issue as conversion therapy, there would be... ANYBODY talking about it.

Because it doesn't help can hurt and is practiced on children at the behest of their dumb parents by people representing themselves as professionals.

I don't think you can ban one but not both.

Then I'm sure there's a mounting social movement against the social indignities of chiropractic therapy.

Oh what's that. Nobody cares? Des-Bal is only bringing this up to have some kind of counter-point that isn't immediately refutable just to be a contrarian? It only gave him 10 extra seconds?

Thank you, Lenin's corpse!



Look, Des, I don't disagree chiropractors are charlatans and quacks, but comparing it to conversion therapy is disingenuous and insultingly downplays the impact conversion therapy can have.

They're not even the same kind of pseudo-science. Conversion is religious pseudo-psychology, chiropractic is alternative pseudo-medicine.

[Thermodolia]

Banning forced conversion therapy is fine. Banning people from undertaking it willingly is less fine with me. Require the providers to make it clear that there's no documented effectiveness to their "therapy", but don't prohibit people from making the choice to try it.

Nanny statism is terrible.

Why should utter quackery be allowed to be practiced by supposed doctors?

We allow all sorts of quackery in the US. How do you think the anti-vax Movement started? In places where vacations are mandatory and results in either loss of parental rights or government benefits they don’t have anti-vax Movements.