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Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Webus
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Founded: Nov 14, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Webus » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:06 pm

I've never seen any evidence for religious claims, and I don't believe the universe needs to have been created to exist.
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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:06 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
If you create the universe, you're responsible for all of the natural things that arise in it.

Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.

We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view

It is called negligence, and is something that medical companies can be sued for.
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Novo Vaticanus
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Founded: Jul 13, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Novo Vaticanus » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:07 pm

Salandriagado wrote:God could have prevented cancer from arising. He didn't. Thus, he's evil. No arguing, no questions, not even if it was supposedly for some greater good: torturing children to death is evil, no matter what your excuse is.

God didn't will it directly. It's a result of the Universe that we live in. If God took complete and absolute control over every facet of the Universe, there wouldn't be any kind of imperfection, or cancer.

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Jolthig
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:07 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Although I just joined your discussion with the other guy (not looking completely at the debate), this is a strawman. I did not say that God loves to torture kids to death with cancer because of whatever supposed malevolent nature that he has.


Nor did I say that you did.

Suffering is neither good nor bad according to nature. If anyone gets a disease, then it's a natural process.


If you created nature, then the results of all natural processes are entirely and completely your fault.

Okay, I suppose this discussion is going to go in circles, so I'll take it in another direction: What do you define evil as?

Salandriagado wrote:
A test for humanity to find a cure as I stated in my previous comment. Diseases also distinguish between good and bad people. The good will take action to ensure that the diseased person is taken care of and a cure is found while for the bad people, they are exposed for their nature.


And we're back to the "torturing children for the greater good" argument.

And there are opportunities for cures at the same time with time.

Salandriagado wrote:
I probably should've said something else or been more specific in the comment as God is outside the physical universe (though at the same time, interacts with it according to Islamic beliefs). So my bad.


"Outside the physical universe" is literally the exact same statement as "doesn't exist".

That's not how monotheism works.
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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:07 pm

Novo Vaticanus wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:

It seems like your whole problem with God is that kids get cancer. This is a very, very common argument against the faithand it really doesn't hold any kind of logical water if you think about it.

God created the universe apart from Himself. That means He gave up some level of His complete control in doing so. Cancer is just a thing that occurs in this Universe, which follows Newton's laws. It isn't like God created the whole fucking universe to just make cancer, haha. He created it so that we could exist within it, and then choose Him.


It's one problem, yes. Your god is supposedly omniscient, therefore can predict all consequences of the universe that he created. Therefore, in particular, he knew that childhood cancer would emerge in it. Therefore, since cancer exists, he clearly chose not to fix the problem. It wouldn't even be hard to fix: just a few tweaks to the structure of DNA. Given that he made that choice, he chose for childhood cancer to exist in the universe. Making that choice is an evil act. Thus, your god, if he exists and is actually omniscient, is evil. The only alternative is that your god either didn't create the universe, or isn't omniscient. So which is it? Is your god evil, is it not the creator of the universe, or is it not omniscient? At least one of those must be true, and yet Catholicism holds that all are false.


You had a lot more to say, but the only issue with the faith I could really distinguish was this, so, I'm glad to try and offer a refutation to any other theological claims you'd like to make against the Church.

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it a million more, there's no argument against the Catholic faith which can't be refuted.


You can say it as many times as you like, it doesn't make it any less false.
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:08 pm

Novo Vaticanus wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:God could have prevented cancer from arising. He didn't. Thus, he's evil. No arguing, no questions, not even if it was supposedly for some greater good: torturing children to death is evil, no matter what your excuse is.

God didn't will it directly. It's a result of the Universe that we live in. If God took complete and absolute control over every facet of the Universe, there wouldn't be any kind of imperfection, or cancer.
And the universe we live in is one supposedly created by your god.
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Dogmeat
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Dogmeat » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:09 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
If you create the universe, you're responsible for all of the natural things that arise in it.

Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.

We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view

I'm not an omniscient or omnipotent creator. I can claim ignorance of the consequences of my actions.

Everything that God supposedly creates, he creates knowing full-well exactly what the consistences will be.

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Novo Vaticanus
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Founded: Jul 13, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Novo Vaticanus » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:10 pm

I would say ">inb4" but i'm too late

Image
Last edited by Novo Vaticanus on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:10 pm

Novo Vaticanus wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:

It seems like your whole problem with God is that kids get cancer. This is a very, very common argument against the faithand it really doesn't hold any kind of logical water if you think about it.

God created the universe apart from Himself. That means He gave up some level of His complete control in doing so. Cancer is just a thing that occurs in this Universe, which follows Newton's laws. It isn't like God created the whole fucking universe to just make cancer, haha. He created it so that we could exist within it, and then choose Him.

You had a lot more to say, but the only issue with the faith I could really distinguish was this, so, I'm glad to try and offer a refutation to any other theological claims you'd like to make against the Church.

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it a million more, there's no argument against the Catholic faith which can't be refuted.

There are several in the Catholic Faith that can be refuted. Starting with it’s a Jewish hearsy
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm

Novo Vaticanus wrote:I would say ">1nb4" but i'm too late


Got anything to argue against it?
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.

We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view

It is called negligence, and is something that medical companies can be sued for.

Medical yes but a chair isn’t a medical thing. It’s neither here nor there we aren’t goin to change eachothers mind
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:12 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:It is called negligence, and is something that medical companies can be sued for.

Medical yes but a chair isn’t a medical thing. It’s neither here nor there we aren’t goin to change eachothers mind

The point being that people can be held responsible for what happens as a result of something they have created.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:12 pm

Novo Vaticanus wrote:I would say ">1nb4" but i'm too late

(Image)

There are answers to that as well.

God, being the unchanging being that he is won't change his natural laws just to wipe out the moral bad from the earth with the snap of a fingers as it goes completely against his nature.
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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:13 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Novo Vaticanus wrote:I would say ">1nb4" but i'm too late

(Image)

There are answers to that as well.

God, being the unchanging being that he is won't change his natural laws just to wipe out the moral bad from the earth with the snap of a fingers as it goes completely against his nature.

He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jolthig
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:15 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Jolthig wrote:There are answers to that as well.

God, being the unchanging being that he is won't change his natural laws just to wipe out the moral bad from the earth with the snap of a fingers as it goes completely against his nature.

He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.

Well, for one, I dont hold the Biblical view of God. Rather, the view of the Quran which places a lot for emphasis on the Oneness of God than the Bible does which the bible has quite inconsistent views on God indeed.
Last edited by Jolthig on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ahmadi Muslim • debater • defender of Islam & Ahmadiyya from its critics • theistic evolutionist • social democrat • Star Wars fan • rock and metal fan

Islamic Literature by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
Allegations Raised by NSGers against Muhammad (saw), and Islam refuted

Currently logged off of NS to observe the Islamic month of Ramadan, and will not return until June 4th. May Allah bless you all.

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:15 pm

Dogmeat wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.

We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view

I'm not an omniscient or omnipotent creator. I can claim ignorance of the consequences of my actions.

Everything that God supposedly creates, he creates knowing full-well exactly what the consistences will be.

That’s only if you believe god is omniscient or omnipotent being.

Again this is with the presumption that god cares or that god isn’t a dick.


Now I’m only playing devils advocate here. But I do believe that the Jewish god is a bit of a dick
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:16 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Medical yes but a chair isn’t a medical thing. It’s neither here nor there we aren’t goin to change eachothers mind

The point being that people can be held responsible for what happens as a result of something they have created.

And I didn’t say otherwise.
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

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Salandriagado
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Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
If you create the universe, you're responsible for all of the natural things that arise in it.

Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.

We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view


The only reason that you aren't responsible is that it's not reasonable to expect a human to predict the future to that degree. If you create the chair, and are omniscient, and know that the result of your creating the chair will be bad, then you are entirely responsible for the results.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.

Well, for one, I dont hold the Biblical view of God. Rather, the view of the Quran which places a lot for emphasis on the Oneness of God than the Bible does which the bible has quite inconsistent views on God indeed.

So does the Quran.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:18 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:The point being that people can be held responsible for what happens as a result of something they have created.

And I didn’t say otherwise.

Thermodolia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
If you create the universe, you're responsible for all of the natural things that arise in it.

Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.

We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view
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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:18 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Jolthig wrote:There are answers to that as well.

God, being the unchanging being that he is won't change his natural laws just to wipe out the moral bad from the earth with the snap of a fingers as it goes completely against his nature.

He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.

This presumes one believes that the biblical stories are 100% true. Which I do not. Every little story and miracle has a physical explanation. For example nobody was raised from the dead. They either had a heart attack or fell unconscious.
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
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Neutraligon
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Posts: 31407
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.

This presumes one believes that the biblical stories are 100% true. Which I do not. Every little story and miracle has a physical explanation. For example nobody was raised from the dead. They either had a heart attack or fell unconscious.

No it doesn't, it does not even require the god be the god of the Torah. Oh, so how did you decide the nature of your god?
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:And I didn’t say otherwise.

Thermodolia wrote:Not really. If create a chair or a habit you aren’t responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well in most places you aren’t.

We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view

Apparently you can’t read.
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

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Salandriagado
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Posts: 17578
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm

Novo Vaticanus wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:God could have prevented cancer from arising. He didn't. Thus, he's evil. No arguing, no questions, not even if it was supposedly for some greater good: torturing children to death is evil, no matter what your excuse is.

God didn't will it directly. It's a result of the Universe that we live in. If God took complete and absolute control over every facet of the Universe, there wouldn't be any kind of imperfection, or cancer.


Supposedly, your god created the universe. He made the decision to note take complete and absolute control of it (or even the vastly lower amount of control needed to tweak the structure of DNA a bit). He is entirely responsible for the results of that action, which he knew about in advance, because he's supposedly omniscient. Thus, he's responsible, in particular, for childhood cancer. If you drive along a main road firing bullets at random into the sides of buildings, you're responsible for the deaths that happen as a result, no matter how much you argue that you didn't will them to die directly, but just wanted to make some artistic patterns with the bullet holes.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Neutraligon
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Posts: 31407
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:21 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:

Apparently you can’t read.

SO why are you talking about a chair when the person you where talking to was talking about a universe?
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