NationStates

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:49 am**

Olthar wrote:In the entire course of human history, but especially now when everyone has a camera in their pocket, there has never been any credible evidence of a God. Furthermore, the very notion of a God is simply illogical and irrational. We know enough about science and the universe that we can safely say that God either violates natural law (and is, therefore, impossible) or God does nothing relevant that affects us (and is, therefore, not worth worshipping). I prefer the first option as a do-nothing God who simply watches us for their own amusement is a terrible thought.

How is a god anymore illogical than a state of singularity so volatile that its ability to exist in the first place doesnt line up with the laws of the universe... nothing scientific is set in stone on the grand scale... the laws of the universe are not final and never will be

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:50 am**

Valentine Z wrote:
Free Arabian Nation wrote:Alright then

Who created the god?

That's also something I can't wrap my head around. There has to be a beginning to all of this, even from a scientific viewpoint. Even for Buddhism, it's lacking because... where's the start?

What's there before the Big Bang, and all of that. I really want to believe that there's something that created this universe.

There are some conjectures as to what "existed" before the Big Bang, however due to the Universe by definition being everything after the Big Bang, and us being wholly unable to record anything prior to the Big Bang (by definition, again, as the Universe had yet to exist).

So there was likely "something", we just are unable to know what "it" was as any sign of its existence would have been destroyed during the creation of our universe.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:50 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Albydia wrote:Most atheistic creation stories...

Atheists don't have "creation" stories, as that implies a creator.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:50 am**

Australian rePublic wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:
That's also something I can't wrap my head around. There has to be a beginning to all of this, even from a scientific viewpoint. Even for Buddhism, it's lacking because... where's the start?

What's there before the Big Bang, and all of that. I really want to believe that there's something that created this universe.

You mention the Big Bang. What's created the singularity which existed before the big bang?

What color was blue before blue existed?

In all seriousness, I don't know. If you ask me, the universe exists in a state called "negative infinity" e.g, instead of the universe "will always exist", the universe "has always existed". That's just a theory though.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:52 am**

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:You mention the Big Bang. What's created the singularity which existed before the big bang?

Time didn't exist before the singularity.

Time as we understand it. We actually have zero idea what "existed" before the singularity one way or the other. The Big Bang essentially wiped out everything, including "time" itself, before it.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:53 am**

Well I simply can't find enough evidence to support such a claim. I no matter how you look at it we have no direct evidence of god existing the only thing you have is simply faith that he does and I am not the kind of person who relies on faith alone when deciding what I believe in. Others are and that's okay but I simply can't believe god exist without solid proof.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:54 am**

Albydia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Atheists don't have "creation" stories, as that implies a creator.

The correction was entirely necessary, because what you were saying was nonsense from the start. "Start as you mean to go on" and all that...

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:54 am**

Valentine Z wrote:
Free Arabian Nation wrote:Alright then

Who created the god?

That's also something I can't wrap my head around. There has to be a beginning to all of this, even from a scientific viewpoint. Even for Buddhism, it's lacking because... where's the start?

What's there before the Big Bang, and all of that. I really want to believe that there's something that created this universe.

Does there need to be a beginning? Causalty is a rule of this universe, but that may not have been the case before the universe existed.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:57 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Olthar wrote:In the entire course of human history, but especially now when everyone has a camera in their pocket, there has never been any credible evidence of a God. Furthermore, the very notion of a God is simply illogical and irrational. We know enough about science and the universe that we can safely say that God either violates natural law (and is, therefore, impossible) or God does nothing relevant that affects us (and is, therefore, not worth worshipping). I prefer the first option as a do-nothing God who simply watches us for their own amusement is a terrible thought.

The silence of God is deafening isn't it? He was awfully chatty thousands of years ago, but now seems to have gone very quiet for an extended period...

In this case I think absence of evidence is evidence of absence when we would expect to find evidence.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:57 am**

Alvecia wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:
That's also something I can't wrap my head around. There has to be a beginning to all of this, even from a scientific viewpoint. Even for Buddhism, it's lacking because... where's the start?

What's there before the Big Bang, and all of that. I really want to believe that there's something that created this universe.

Does there need to be a beginning? Causalty is a rule of this universe, but that may not have been the case before the universe existed.

Well I think both Atheist and religious people can agree on that the big bang did not come from nowhere something caused it.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:57 am**

Alvecia wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:
That's also something I can't wrap my head around. There has to be a beginning to all of this, even from a scientific viewpoint. Even for Buddhism, it's lacking because... where's the start?

What's there before the Big Bang, and all of that. I really want to believe that there's something that created this universe.

Does there need to be a beginning? Causalty is a rule of this universe, but that may not have been the case before the universe existed.

This.

The universe doesn't have to have an origin. All notions of "origin" imply a "beginning", which fit our current understanding of time. But to ask what happened before the big bang is as meaningless a question as to ask how apples tasted before apples existed.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:59 am**

Andsed wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Does there need to be a beginning? Causalty is a rule of this universe, but that may not have been the case before the universe existed.

Well I think both Atheist and religious people can agree on that the big bang did not come from nowhere something caused it.

Do we? I don't.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:59 am**

Sapientia Et Bellum wrote:I can easily replace god with what came before the big bang and what came before the answer to that and science cant answer it just as religion cant answer what created god as we know it... its beyond our capability of knowing.... nothing is truly falsifiable

Aristotle would like a word with you.

"Knowledge is knowable."

If it's unknowable, then it isn't knowledge.

"To know something, there must be something to know."

And if it's unknowable, then it doesn't exist.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:00 am**

Australian rePublic wrote:You mention the Big Bang. What's created the singularity which existed before the big bang?

The idea is that space-time came into existence with the Big Bang, so "before" it isn't really an intelligible concept. Being a minute before space-time makes about as much sense as being a metre outside it.

Albydia wrote:There has to be a God because I refuse to believe that I am here out of sheer dumb luck.

Your refusal to believe something doesn't mean there has to be anything.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:07 am**

I'm not entirely sure whether I believe in a creator, as I'm not sure how the universe could have sprung from nothing (although the obvious question then is who created the creator), however, that doesn't mean thay whatever created the universe is sentient, let alone immortal and omnipotent. At any rate, everything after the big bang behaves exactly as it would if there were no creator, and every major religion here on Earth is does nothing to properly explain how the universe started, nor prove itself, and most religions are so bad that I wouldn't want them to be true. For these reasons, I fall generally on the non-belief side of things.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:08 am**

Well, I don't believe, because the image of a "loving God" contrasts with a potential dickweed who left people on a planet with limited resources, some in abject poverty, and throws those who disagree into eternal suffering.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:11 am**

Andsed wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Does there need to be a beginning? Causalty is a rule of this universe, but that may not have been the case before the universe existed.

Well I think both Atheist and religious people can agree on that the big bang did not come from nowhere something caused it.

Weeeeell... time is really weird. As we perceive it, it is linear. On a far more quantum level, it may not be and can act really, really freakin weird. In other words, time isn't really what we think it is, it can hypothetically move backwards just as easily as forwards. It can move sideways, loop-dy-loop, and spin in circles.

The only we we perceive it, however, is linearly. Imagine this: You are born on a train, and immediately strapped to the front of it for your entire life. Your only perception of movement is constantly moving forward.

On another track, there is someone strapped to the back of the train that is constantly in reverse. Another is strapped to the hood of a car going in constant donuts. Every one of them would have a different perception of how "movement" is supposed to work. The guy on the front will see the "proper" movement is constantly forward. The guy on the back only sees moving backwards. The guy doing donuts only sees us going in circles. None have experienced what the others have, have adapted to their given predicament, and they have no frame of reference to perceive that even though all ofnthose types of movement can happen and are happening.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:12 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Olthar wrote:In the entire course of human history, but especially now when everyone has a camera in their pocket, there has never been any credible evidence of a God. Furthermore, the very notion of a God is simply illogical and irrational. We know enough about science and the universe that we can safely say that God either violates natural law (and is, therefore, impossible) or God does nothing relevant that affects us (and is, therefore, not worth worshipping). I prefer the first option as a do-nothing God who simply watches us for their own amusement is a terrible thought.

The silence of God is deafening isn't it? He was awfully chatty thousands of years ago, but now seems to have gone very quiet for an extended period...

Funny how the age of magic and miracles happened to end right around the invention of the camera.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:13 am**

Andsed wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Does there need to be a beginning? Causalty is a rule of this universe, but that may not have been the case before the universe existed.

Well I think both Atheist and religious people can agree on that the big bang did not come from nowhere something caused it.

It might have come from nowhere, we don't know.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:14 am**

Sapientia Et Bellum wrote:
Olthar wrote:In the entire course of human history, but especially now when everyone has a camera in their pocket, there has never been any credible evidence of a God. Furthermore, the very notion of a God is simply illogical and irrational. We know enough about science and the universe that we can safely say that God either violates natural law (and is, therefore, impossible) or God does nothing relevant that affects us (and is, therefore, not worth worshipping). I prefer the first option as a do-nothing God who simply watches us for their own amusement is a terrible thought.

How is a god anymore illogical than a state of singularity so volatile that its ability to exist in the first place doesnt line up with the laws of the universe... nothing scientific is set in stone on the grand scale... the laws of the universe are not final and never will be

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. We're talking about God, not what you think science says.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:15 am**

Andsed wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Does there need to be a beginning? Causalty is a rule of this universe, but that may not have been the case before the universe existed.

Well I think both Atheist and religious people can agree on that the big bang did not come from nowhere something caused it.

Not really, no.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:17 am**

At the end of the day, one thing's for sure regarding the existence of God and Universe...

We will probably not get an answer any time soon, not in this foreseeable future.

Is there anything before Big Bang? A Force of Nature? Or God that controls the entire grand scheme of things, but gave us a slack so that we can still forge our own destiny? Or... is it already pre-set?

Either way, I think we need some time to know all that. The universe's scarily huge.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:19 am**

Olthar wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The silence of God is deafening isn't it? He was awfully chatty thousands of years ago, but now seems to have gone very quiet for an extended period...

Funny how the age of magic and miracles happened to end right around the invention of the camera.

Might go some way towards explaining why I love cameras of all ages so much.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:20 am**

Australian rePublic wrote:This thread will ask you the question of WHY you do/don't believe in God.

Why do I believe in God? I believe that I have experienced God. I.e. Specifically Orthodox Christian experiences of God. But that's not worth much. So why do I believe in God? I believe that there have been many examples in life governed by Divine Intervention. Further, I believe that every time I've ignored Divine Intervention, chaos has resulted. That is, far, far too many instances for it to be a coincidence. At this stage, you might be thinking, "Conformation bias". Fine, it might be conformation bias, but what if it isn't? So then, why Christianity? I've learnt about many religions, and many faiths and find Christian theology quite agreeable. So why Orthodoxy? Orthodox believe that it's possible to establish a personal relationship with God, which I find quite agreeable (of coarse God would want a personal relation with His people) and I also find the Orthodox perspective of Hell perfectly in line with the actions of a loving God. I don't think God would send His people to an eternal torture chamber. Sorry for the vagueness of the post, I really shouldn't do this late at night... I'll elaborate more tomorrow, and/or if I am asked

So, why do/don't you believe in God?

Orthodoxy isn't the only denomination of Christianity that advocates a relationship with God.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:20 am**

Free Arabian Nation wrote:
Holy Tedalonia wrote:I find the universe or the world far to much in our favor. And with that fortune in mind, makes me believe in god. Sure we may be lucky, but you can only be lucky so many times.

Lol no, if anything this universe hates us.

I mean, if this universe was truly biased towards humans, our Earth would grow pizza and beer on trees and hookers would be everywhere.

Jokes aside, this universe is most definitely NOT in our favor. Especially considering the fact that 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of our universe will kill us without things like Clothing, Spacesuits, Spaceships, Weapons, Air Conditioning, Food, Medicine. Hell, Humanity would have gone extinct/wouldn't be the top species if it wasn't for the magical invention of "Controlled Fire"

It's less of a finely tuned haven for Humans and more of a flower in a sidewalk crack.

Which is we are so fortunate, every time we reach a new step in technology we are harder to kill off or go extinct, and since we have survived so far, fortune has smiled upon us, so far. You argue that because of our chances we are our considerable unfortunate, where as I argue, because of our luck in rolling those odds so far we are lucky. Which is why I argue we are favored in the universe, as if we didnt have that favor, we'd likely be dead now.

NationStates

Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)