NationStates

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:29 am**

Lost Memories wrote:
Neanderthaland wrote:Killing something with a soul to prove a point is a fucking malevolent thing to do. Especially when you're an omnipotent God who can easily prove that same point without doing so.

That's not how it works in christianity.

It's bad to meaninglessly harm living things, because it's damaging something you don't own.
God is the giver of life, which also means to be the giver of souls, which means god is the owner of life.
If the tree had a soul, it was because of god's will and giving, so god taking back its life isn't something evil.

You're making the overly common mistake to evaluate god by human standards. That's not how it works in christianity. Nor does it make sense outside christianity either, as god isn't a person, nor it's below humanity control. (if we wanted to go deeper, judgement without control, is aimless, as judgement to be meaningful needs enforcement)

Are you not contradicting yourself there?
In the first paragraph you evaluate god and his actions, then in the second say you cannot evaluate him by a human standard.

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:55 am**

Alvecia wrote:
Lost Memories wrote:That's not how it works in christianity.

It's bad to meaninglessly harm living things, because it's damaging something you don't own.
God is the giver of life, which also means to be the giver of souls, which means god is the owner of life.
If the tree had a soul, it was because of god's will and giving, so god taking back its life isn't something evil.

You're making the overly common mistake to evaluate god by human standards. That's not how it works in christianity. Nor does it make sense outside christianity either, as god isn't a person, nor it's below humanity control. (if we wanted to go deeper, judgement without control, is aimless, as judgement to be meaningful needs enforcement)

Are you not contradicting yourself there?
In the first paragraph you evaluate god and his actions, then in the second say you cannot evaluate him by a human standard.

Not contraddicting. In fact, the standard of killing living things without reason being evil, applies only to living things themselves, specifically it's an human standard, as other living things may not have a standard at all about it, but that human standard isn't appliable to god, as the relation between life and life is different from the relation of life and god.

Which is what i reiterated in the second paragraph. Delving a bit into the side of judgement, as a judge to be proper should have power in applying their verdict, otherwise they're powerless, and their judgement is ineffective, the same as it didn't exist. And a judge unable to make effective judgements isn't a judge, or is fooling themselves about it.

It's actually getting wordier like this.

To add a little more, when i said this:
"If the tree had a soul, it was because of god's will and giving, so god taking back its life isn't something evil."
i meant that "not being evil" as being outside the human duality of good-evil. As it's an act we can't really measure by human moral standards. As explained above.
For christians that's just "his will", not humanly good, or humanly bad, just "his will". It isn't meant to be an example for humans to emulate, as humans are humans and not gods, but it's meant to be an example of god to humans, for humans understanding of god.

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:14 am**

Lost Memories wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Are you not contradicting yourself there?
In the first paragraph you evaluate god and his actions, then in the second say you cannot evaluate him by a human standard.

Not contraddicting. In fact, the standard of killing living things without reason being evil, applies only to living things themselves, specifically it's an human standard, as other living things may not have a standard at all about it, but that human standard isn't appliable to god, as the relation between life and life is different from the relation of life and god.

Which is what i reiterated in the second paragraph. Delving a bit into the side of judgement, as a judge to be proper should have power in applying their verdict, otherwise they're powerless, and their judgement is ineffective, the same as it didn't exist. And a judge unable to make effective judgements isn't a judge, or is fooling themselves about it.

It's actually getting wordier like this.

To add a little more, when i said this:
"If the tree had a soul, it was because of god's will and giving, so god taking back its life isn't something evil."
i meant that "not being evil" as being outside the human duality of good-evil. As it's an act we can't really measure by human moral standards. As explained above.
For christians that's just "his will", not humanly good, or humanly bad, just "his will". It isn't meant to be an example for humans to emulate, as humans are humans and not gods, but it's meant to be an example of god to humans, for humans understanding of god.

If God cant show why he decides to do things like genocide, then why does he deserve praise or worship? If he cant follow the rules he put in place, then why respect him? And why punish humanity for not following his arbitrary rules despite the fact that he supposedly gave us the ability to reason?

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:42 am**

Thuzbekistan wrote:
Lost Memories wrote:Not contraddicting. In fact, the standard of killing living things without reason being evil, applies only to living things themselves, specifically it's an human standard, as other living things may not have a standard at all about it, but that human standard isn't appliable to god, as the relation between life and life is different from the relation of life and god.

Which is what i reiterated in the second paragraph. Delving a bit into the side of judgement, as a judge to be proper should have power in applying their verdict, otherwise they're powerless, and their judgement is ineffective, the same as it didn't exist. And a judge unable to make effective judgements isn't a judge, or is fooling themselves about it.

It's actually getting wordier like this.

To add a little more, when i said this:
"If the tree had a soul, it was because of god's will and giving, so god taking back its life isn't something evil."
i meant that "not being evil" as being outside the human duality of good-evil. As it's an act we can't really measure by human moral standards. As explained above.
For christians that's just "his will", not humanly good, or humanly bad, just "his will". It isn't meant to be an example for humans to emulate, as humans are humans and not gods, but it's meant to be an example of god to humans, for humans understanding of god.

If God cant show why he decides to do things like genocide, then why does he deserve praise or worship? If he cant follow the rules he put in place, then why respect him? And why punish humanity for not following his arbitrary rules despite the fact that he supposedly gave us the ability to reason?

:facepalm:
Imagine having to explain the same thing over and over, while having to change wording to try to be more clear, just for the same old questions which got already answered to be asked again. It's a bit disheartening, and i'm not in the mood for an other merry go round right now, maybe later.

I'll just drop that, it isn't god not showing, but humans understanding to be too limited. But regardless people always want to understand god more, so they keep looking for god.

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:56 am**

Just thinking about this topic and I have a few questions, related to the Problem of Evil:

If evil exists due to free will, why is free will itself an intrisic good such that all other evils are worth allowing to preserve it? Why would an omnipotent being view life as an inherent good in the first place? If God/god(s) have "a plan" why is it okay to have our free will subverted in those circumstances? To what end are we being used for that "plan" and who is supposed to benefit? Humanity as a collective? The world? The universe?

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:02 am**

Lost Memories wrote:
Thuzbekistan wrote:If God cant show why he decides to do things like genocide, then why does he deserve praise or worship? If he cant follow the rules he put in place, then why respect him? And why punish humanity for not following his arbitrary rules despite the fact that he supposedly gave us the ability to reason?

:facepalm:
Imagine having to explain the same thing over and over, while having to change wording to try to be more clear, just for the same old questions which got already answered to be asked again. It's a bit disheartening, and i'm not in the mood for an other merry go round right now, maybe later.

I'll just drop that, it isn't god not showing, but humans understanding to be too limited. But regardless people always want to understand god more, so they keep looking for god.

You are having to repeat it because your answer isnt good enough. "Humans cant understand why God is killing them" is useless and a nonstarter.

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:34 am**

Thuzbekistan wrote:You are having to repeat it because your answer isnt good enough. "Humans cant understand why God is killing them" is useless and a nonstarter.

Why?

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:36 am**

Valrifell wrote:Just thinking about this topic and I have a few questions, related to the Problem of Evil:

If evil exists due to free will, why is free will itself an intrisic good such that all other evils are worth allowing to preserve it? Why would an omnipotent being view life as an inherent good in the first place? If God/god(s) have "a plan" why is it okay to have our free will subverted in those circumstances? To what end are we being used for that "plan" and who is supposed to benefit? Humanity as a collective? The world? The universe?

Truth is, Christians have never had an answer for that. The only reason why the question comes up now is because, for most of Christianity's history, asking questions like this would get you killed as a heretic.
I really, really like what Jesus had to say - "love thy neighbor" and "feed the poor" being the two best rules he laid down IMO - but I'm really sick and tired of Christians using "God's will" as a justification for them being better than everyone else without doing anything to convince others that they're actually deserving of praise for any reason other than "BUT JEEEEEEEEESUS". Not all Christians do that, but enough do that I don't take anything the Bible says at face value.

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:45 am**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Thuzbekistan wrote:You are having to repeat it because your answer isnt good enough. "Humans cant understand why God is killing them" is useless and a nonstarter.

Why?

Because it provides no other reasoning than God is beyond comprehension. Theres no debate to be had because you are essentially saying that God can do any number of unjust and evil things and its justified because God knows everything and we humans, who are the victims, do not have the capability to understand. It's an unconvincing argument that makes the other party dislike that God rather than accepting it.

It also begs the question of why he gave us free will to begin with if he is going to kill us if we disobey him.

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:55 am**

Thuzbekistan wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Why?

Because it provides no other reasoning than God is beyond comprehension. Theres no debate to be had because you are essentially saying that God can do any number of unjust and evil things and its justified because God knows everything and we humans, who are the victims, do not have the capability to understand. It's an unconvincing argument that makes the other party dislike that God rather than accepting it.

It also begs the question of why he gave us free will to begin with if he is going to kill us if we disobey him.

God sending people to hell for having free will and choosing to not mindlessly obey him (420 CE, colorized):

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:29 am**

Lost Memories wrote:
Neanderthaland wrote:Killing something with a soul to prove a point is a fucking malevolent thing to do. Especially when you're an omnipotent God who can easily prove that same point without doing so.

That's not how it works in christianity.

It's bad to meaninglessly harm living things, because it's damaging something you don't own.
God is the giver of life, which also means to be the giver of souls, which means god is the owner of life.
If the tree had a soul, it was because of god's will and giving, so god taking back its life isn't something evil.

You're making the overly common mistake to evaluate god by human standards. That's not how it works in christianity. Nor does it make sense outside christianity either, as god isn't a person, nor it's below humanity control. (if we wanted to go deeper, judgement without control, is aimless, as judgement to be meaningful needs enforcement)

Oh, I get it. No matter how wretched God acts, it isn't bad because "that's not how it works in christianity." It's just a circular argument that beings with "god is not bad," and ends with "therefore god is not bad."

But in reality "god created life, therefore life is his to torment" isn't morality, it's just bad parenting.

Posted: **Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:50 am**

Lost Memories wrote:You're making the overly common mistake to evaluate god by human standards.

Presumably, then, when a parent/priest/politician points at a Bible and says, say, I'm going to hell because I'm X, we automatically know that God's standards are being invoked, and they aren't just making stuff up because it happens to be convenient for them at that particular time?

The problem presented by "Gods will" is that it is pretty much always expressed by a human, and is thus indistinguishable from "human standards."

(Probably 'cause some humans with an agenda just made it up.)

Neanderthaland wrote:But in reality "god created life, therefore life is his to torment" isn't morality, it's just bad parenting.

Yeah, but if I need an excuse for beating the shit out of my wife or murdering someone cause they looked at me funny, it's damned convenient.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 9:32 am**

Ultimately, we4 all have to choose belief or non-belief in God/Gods.

God/Gods Do Exist

We are convinced He/She/It do exist. We will live a virtous existence on Earth and be blessed in the Afterlife. After death, we'll be surronded by positive experiences and enjoy the Afterlife forever.

God/Gods Do Not Exist

When we die, we'll pass into nonexistence. Scriptures are simply the fantasies of primitive men and women or women and men. Nothimg exists after death. We are reduced to nothing.

Choose Carefully or Make No Choice

Our decision will decide our fate. We will either fade to nothingness or a happy Afterlife. What do you believe will happend or not happend?

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 9:45 am**

You forgot godless reincarnation.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 9:50 am**

I think the gods are probably borne of the human mind on the astral plane. I don’t know if there is an actual god/gods, but my superior has not found an actual god.

I personally leave offerings to Hekate.
Regarding the afterlife one can look up NDEs.
They are subjectivistic but there is no reason the afterlife wouldn’t be.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 9:50 am**

The Grims wrote:You forgot godless reincarnation.

If i could wish, i would hope for reincarnation.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 10:00 am**

Right Makes Might Alliance wrote:Ultimately, we4 all have to choose belief or non-belief in God/Gods.

God/Gods Do Exist

We are convinced He/She/It do exist. We will live a virtous existence on Earth and be blessed in the Afterlife. After death, we'll be surronded by positive experiences and enjoy the Afterlife forever.

God/Gods Do Not Exist

When we die, we'll pass into nonexistence. Scriptures are simply the fantasies of primitive men and women or women and men. Nothimg exists after death. We are reduced to nothing.

Choose Carefully or Make No Choice

Our decision will decide our fate. We will either fade to nothingness or a happy Afterlife. What do you believe will happend or not happend?

Uh huh. This is an active forum, it behooves one to do more than look at the first page before starting a new thread. You are now merged into the existing thread on this topic.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 10:03 am**

Right Makes Might Alliance wrote:Ultimately, we4 all have to choose belief or non-belief in God/Gods.

God/Gods Do Exist

We are convinced He/She/It do exist. We will live a virtous existence on Earth and be blessed in the Afterlife. After death, we'll be surronded by positive experiences and God/Gods Do Not Exist

When we die, we'll pass into nonexistence. Scriptures are simply the fantasies of primitive men and women or women and men. Nothimg exists after death. We are reduced to nothing.
Choose Carefully or Make No Choice

Our decision will decide our fate. We will either fade to nothingness or a happy Afterlife. What do you believe will happend or not happend?

This seems a bit over the top on the simplification of views.......

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 10:22 am**

i believe in higher things, influencies, still it doesn t mean in the while to assume i have to believe these as a 'practical' entities.

the ancient, before bronze, believed in practical 'personification' of concepts (warmt, good) to write them down. it doesn t mean they should be, they may be merely as 'principles'.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 2:38 pm**

Right Makes Might Alliance wrote:Ultimately, we4 all have to choose belief or non-belief in God/Gods.

God/Gods Do Exist

We are convinced He/She/It do exist. We will live a virtous existence on Earth and be blessed in the Afterlife. After death, we'll be surronded by positive experiences and enjoy the Afterlife forever.

God/Gods Do Not Exist

When we die, we'll pass into nonexistence. Scriptures are simply the fantasies of primitive men and women or women and men. Nothimg exists after death. We are reduced to nothing.

Choose Carefully or Make No Choice

Our decision will decide our fate. We will either fade to nothingness or a happy Afterlife. What do you believe will happend or not happend?

There is much that is wrong with this. Starting with the idea that you can or should "choose" your beliefs, and ending with the idea that the two possibilities you can imagine are the only possibilities.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 3:30 pm**

Right Makes Might Alliance wrote:Ultimately, we4 all have to choose belief or non-belief in God/Gods.

First, it would probably be helpful to settle upon some sort of not incoherent definition of "god." Barring such a definition, a meaningful statement as to "belief" in it is impossible, ergo meaningless.

When we die, we'll pass into nonexistence. Scriptures are simply the fantasies of primitive men and women or women and men. Nothimg exists after death. We are reduced to nothing.

Although I'm someone who so far sees no compelling, coherent definition of "god" and thus attempts no statement as to "belief" in it, I nonetheless find the above statements a rather absurd notion of some supposed "disbelief." Whether some supposed "god" exists or not, physically, following death, I will very much not pass into nonexistence. On the contrary, every atom of my physical being will more likely be put to some other use via any number of chemical and biological processes. I will become all kinds of cool things, many of which, as a matter of fact, I have once been for billions of years before my current form.

These include hydrogen and helium atoms deep inside the cores of stars, which is actually pretty badass in my opinion. Wouldn't mind doing that again.

At any rate, all kinds of stuff will exist after I die, and I'll probably be perfectly functional parts of many of them. Assuming I don't end up doing something silly like being chemically pickled and sealed in a concrete box.

We will either fade to nothingness or a happy Afterlife.

Flag on the play: false dichotomy.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 3:35 pm**

Looks at war crimes caused by Islamic terrorist groups and the Nazis
Uhhhhhh... sorry to be unspecific, but I think this should say enough :/
Quote this post if you have something to say to me because I recommend it xD

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 4:27 pm**

Ravennog wrote:Looks at war crimes caused by Islamic terrorist groups and the Nazis
Uhhhhhh... sorry to be unspecific, but I think this should say enough :/
Quote this post if you have something to say to me because I recommend it xD

?

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2019 7:16 pm**

My personal explanation for not believing in any god is this: I believe that the notion of a "God" was invented by early man to explain things they couldn't explain at the time (that is, how the universe works). Of course, some humans didn't simply accept this explanation and went on to find their own answers, developing what we now call science. In the modern day, we have science to explain how the world works, with scientific laws explaining why things happen. Science will probably always be incomplete and continually expanding, but that just means we're learning more about the universe.

Posted: **Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:12 am**

Convince me.

NationStates

Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

God/Gods do exist OR God/Gods do not exist