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Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Tarsonis
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Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tarsonis » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:28 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:And how can you 100% trust science? Isn't science just a bunch of writings from strangers?

No, science is a method. One based on falsifiability, evidence, observation, and research (i.e. the opposite of religion).


Actually observation, research and evidence is mostly what I do as a theologian. Not completely removed.
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The Caleshan Valkyrie
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Caleshan Valkyrie » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
Two things:

Outside the universe = doesn’t exist.


Multiverse theorists would disagree.


Multiverse ‘theory’ hardly even qualifies as idle speculation.

You have no basis to ascribe traits to anything that we cannot observe quite simply BECAUSE they cannot be observed.
In ability to observe is not prove of nonexistence.


It is however eminently critical to proving actual existence. Without that evidence to prove the positive claim that your god exists, logic dictates a default to its negation and that we hold any such claims with the weight equivalent to onesuch as yourself stamping their feet and insisting that your imaginary friend DOES exist, durn it!

And just because I’ve dealt with this argument before: Trying to cast doubt on the efficacy of science and observation hurts your case more than it does mine. Best keep clear.
:roll: Sciencd is quite effective, but it has its limits. As I pointed out with the multiverse bit you subscribe to strict empiricism, but that’s not a position universally held by atheists let alone theists.


The existence of a speculative branch of discussion does not count as a counterproof. Multiverse concepts don’t even qualify as hypotheses.


Then there is no point to your continued posting in this thread.


The title of the thread is “Why do you/don’t you believe in God”. Not, “Theists prove God exists” not that anti-theists can tell the difference.


And the nature of this forum is that of debate and having your ideas challenged. You bring it up, you back it up. If you were not interested in actual debate, you could have just posted your first piece and left the thread never to return, satisfied that your say was had.

You’re still posting here though. Hm.
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Australian rePublic
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Capitalizt

Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:42 pm

I hope that this is not heretical, I really do, but here's my theory about God.
According to modern science, a subatomic particle is capable of behaving in 4 different manners:
Let's call them A, B, C & D- whether the subatomic particle will behave as A, B, C or D is random. If you were capable of knowing the actions of each of those subatomic particles, you would know anything and everything about the universe. If you know which particles will behave as A, then you will know the consequences of behaving as A. If you know which particles will behave as B, then you know the outcome of particles behaving as B, etc. So, therefore, God designed this system for us so that we can have free will. God knew each individual outcome, but still allowed it to take its own coarse. God only to tweak a hand full (by which I mean trillions and trillions and trillions) of As in order to make them Bs. He had to tweak a few A to male them Cs, He had to tweak a few Cs to make them As, etc. We, as His creation, have no idea which particle were tweaked, but we still see the consequences of it.
Or in other words, the outcome of most subatomic particles is random, but a tiny minority of them were intentionally tweaked
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The Caleshan Valkyrie
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Founded: Oct 07, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Caleshan Valkyrie » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:48 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:I hope that this is not heretical, I really do, but here's my theory about God.
According to modern science, a subatomic particle is capable of behaving in 4 different manners:
Let's call them A, B, C & D- whether the subatomic particle will behave as A, B, C or D is random. If you were capable of knowing the actions of each of those subatomic particles, you would know anything and everything about the universe. If you know which particles will behave as A, then you will know the consequences of behaving as A. If you know which particles will behave as B, then you know the outcome of particles behaving as B, etc. So, therefore, God designed this system for us so that we can have free will. God knew each individual outcome, but still allowed it to take its own coarse. God only to tweak a hand full (by which I mean trillions and trillions and trillions) of As in order to make them Bs. He had to tweak a few A to male them Cs, He had to tweak a few Cs to make them As, etc. We, as His creation, have no idea which particle were tweaked, but we still see the consequences of it.
Or in other words, the outcome of most subatomic particles is random, but a tiny minority of them were intentionally tweaked


Unprovable statement accompanied by ignorance (or whatever that unsourced ‘modern science says’ was) and a leap of logic that would set records at the Olympic Games.

You are REALLY reaching.
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Korhal IVV
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Korhal IVV » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:03 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Like this.


The evidence is when people say they acted because God told them to.

People have also murdered because they said god tells them so.

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.
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Byzconia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Byzconia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:22 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Byzconia wrote:No, science is a method. One based on falsifiability, evidence, observation, and research (i.e. the opposite of religion).


Actually observation, research and evidence is mostly what I do as a theologian. Not completely removed.

Theology is not science. You never apply these principles to God himself, which means any conclusions you draw are unfalsifiable (or, at best, irrelevant) due to being based on an unfalsifiable premise (i.e. that God exists).
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Byzconia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Byzconia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:26 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:I hope that this is not heretical, I really do, but here's my theory about God.
According to modern science, a subatomic particle is capable of behaving in 4 different manners:
Let's call them A, B, C & D- whether the subatomic particle will behave as A, B, C or D is random. If you were capable of knowing the actions of each of those subatomic particles, you would know anything and everything about the universe. If you know which particles will behave as A, then you will know the consequences of behaving as A. If you know which particles will behave as B, then you know the outcome of particles behaving as B, etc. So, therefore, God designed this system for us so that we can have free will. God knew each individual outcome, but still allowed it to take its own coarse. God only to tweak a hand full (by which I mean trillions and trillions and trillions) of As in order to make them Bs. He had to tweak a few A to male them Cs, He had to tweak a few Cs to make them As, etc. We, as His creation, have no idea which particle were tweaked, but we still see the consequences of it.
Or in other words, the outcome of most subatomic particles is random, but a tiny minority of them were intentionally tweaked

Except the Christian God is omniscient, meaning randomness physically cannot exist with him. There are no "minor tweaks," everything necessarily happens as he expects, or he is not omniscient (likewise, he must also necessarily approve of everything that happens as well--since nothing in the universe can happen without his allowance--or he is not omnipotent).
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Byzconia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Byzconia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:33 pm

Korhal IVV wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:People have also murdered because they said god tells them so.

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Because the wholesale slaughter of entire villages is a "good" religious practice? Sorry, no, you don't get to commit genocide just because members of that culture practice things you don't like. Yeah, child sacrifice is bad, but the Israelites practiced slavery and regularly took captured women as concubines sex slaves. They hardly have any authority to tell other people what to do. And, again, none of this justifies genocide. Two wrongs don't make a right, bud.

Also, "...therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies"? The fuck does that mean? You know ideas aren't genetic, right?

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

Which is irrelevant. People during that time were extremely religious. Most Crusaders legitimately believed they were fighting a holy war and God was on their side. They were especially persuaded by the Pope's offer of free entry into Heaven for anyone who participated.
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Kowani
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Kowani » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:33 pm

Korhal IVV wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:People have also murdered because they said god tells them so.

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices.
Citation needed.
Korhal IVV wrote:Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.
Oh look, we’re literally advocating Genocide now. How pleasant. Good Christian morality at work!
Korhal IVV wrote:Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

Ignoring the fact that he thought it was his God-given destiny.
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Thuzbekistan
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Postby Thuzbekistan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:39 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Free Arabian Nation wrote:So he's not answering prayers, he's just gambling that some person will listen to him and do his will?

Close enough. He's doing what is going to answer the prayer, and that's why the Bible says Christians must obey God.

Neutraligon wrote:Then by the same logic he is not answering people's prayers, since he also cannot force anyone to do anything. So once again that is not god answering prayers, that is humans answering prayers.

God is instructing humans to answer prayers. They wouldn't know what to do otherwise.

That's really insulting to groups that go out there and do this stuff. Particularly atheist groups.
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Korhal IVV
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Korhal IVV » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:40 pm

Kowani wrote:
Korhal IVV wrote:Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices.
Citation needed.
Korhal IVV wrote:Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.
Oh look, we’re literally advocating Genocide now. How pleasant. Good Christian morality at work!
Korhal IVV wrote:Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.

Ignoring the fact that he thought it was his God-given destiny.

1. I will put that up later after my next class. Wait up.

2. Did I say that it applies in the Christian context? I didn't, right? That command was solely to Israel only. No more, no less. Case closed.

3. Doesn't mean that God would have wanted Christians under the New Covenant to crusade against Saracens. The New Testament Christians were explicitly pacifistic. The Crusades were a produce of the inclusion of formerly pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:45 pm

Korhal IVV wrote:
Kowani wrote: Citation needed.
Oh look, we’re literally advocating Genocide now. How pleasant. Good Christian morality at work!

Ignoring the fact that he thought it was his God-given destiny.

1. I will put that up later after my next class. Wait up.
Yeah, sure.
Korhal IVV wrote:2. Did I say that it applies in the Christian context? I didn't, right? That command was solely to Israel only. No more, no less. Case closed.
I love how you missed the point entirely. :clap:
Korhal IVV wrote:3. Doesn't mean that God would have wanted Christians under the New Covenant to crusade against Saracens.
The same God who “flooded” the world because he didn’t like the moral state. “Free Will.”
Korhal IVV wrote:The New Testament Christians were explicitly pacifistic.
Nah. The New Testament was explicitly Pacifistic. The Christians themselves? Not necessarily.
Korhal IVV wrote: The Crusades were a produce of the inclusion of formerly pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

:rofl:
I hope you stretched earlier.
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Dogmeat
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Dogmeat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:50 am

Korhal IVV wrote:3. Doesn't mean that God would have wanted Christians under the New Covenant to crusade against Saracens. The New Testament Christians were explicitly pacifistic. The Crusades were a produce of the inclusion of formerly pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

I'm totally willing to concede that pagan traditions have worked their way into various aspects of Christianity, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that they just laid dormant for the better part of a thousand years before manifesting a Crusade out of nowhere.

Christianity went through a lot of changes in the High Medieval period - from that weird Affective Spirituality movement with its Jesus-porn, to the formation of a persecuting society - but they're not pagan. You guys did this to yourselves.

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The Grims
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Postby The Grims » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:57 am

Korhal IVV wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:People have also murdered because they said god tells them so.

Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.


IIRC Jesus was accused of running a cult of cannibalism as well (most likely due to a misunderstanding of the ritual of the host).
Judging people on accusations alone might not be the best idea ever.

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The blAAtschApen
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Postby The blAAtschApen » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:32 am

The Grims wrote:
Korhal IVV wrote:Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.


IIRC Jesus was accused of running a cult of cannibalism as well (most likely due to a misunderstanding of the ritual of the host).
Judging people on accusations alone might not be the best idea ever.


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Australian rePublic
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Capitalizt

Postby Australian rePublic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:32 am

Byzconia wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:I hope that this is not heretical, I really do, but here's my theory about God.
According to modern science, a subatomic particle is capable of behaving in 4 different manners:
Let's call them A, B, C & D- whether the subatomic particle will behave as A, B, C or D is random. If you were capable of knowing the actions of each of those subatomic particles, you would know anything and everything about the universe. If you know which particles will behave as A, then you will know the consequences of behaving as A. If you know which particles will behave as B, then you know the outcome of particles behaving as B, etc. So, therefore, God designed this system for us so that we can have free will. God knew each individual outcome, but still allowed it to take its own coarse. God only to tweak a hand full (by which I mean trillions and trillions and trillions) of As in order to make them Bs. He had to tweak a few A to male them Cs, He had to tweak a few Cs to make them As, etc. We, as His creation, have no idea which particle were tweaked, but we still see the consequences of it.
Or in other words, the outcome of most subatomic particles is random, but a tiny minority of them were intentionally tweaked

Except the Christian God is omniscient, meaning randomness physically cannot exist with him. There are no "minor tweaks," everything necessarily happens as he expects, or he is not omniscient (likewise, he must also necessarily approve of everything that happens as well--since nothing in the universe can happen without his allowance--or he is not omnipotent).

No. Knowing something=/=comtrolling the outcome. It's like watching a movie for the 10th time. You know exactly what's gonna happen, but you don't control the outcome. You could say your omniscient over that movie, but don't control the outcome
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The Grims
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Postby The Grims » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:56 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Byzconia wrote:No, science is a method. One based on falsifiability, evidence, observation, and research (i.e. the opposite of religion).


Actually observation, research and evidence is mostly what I do as a theologian. Not completely removed.


But is your main goal to prove the god hypothesis wrong ? To devise test after test ?
Last edited by The Grims on Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:58 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Byzconia wrote:Except the Christian God is omniscient, meaning randomness physically cannot exist with him. There are no "minor tweaks," everything necessarily happens as he expects, or he is not omniscient (likewise, he must also necessarily approve of everything that happens as well--since nothing in the universe can happen without his allowance--or he is not omnipotent).

No. Knowing something=/=comtrolling the outcome. It's like watching a movie for the 10th time. You know exactly what's gonna happen, but you don't control the outcome. You could say your omniscient over that movie, but don't control the outcome

To continue the analogy, the issue is that God isn’t the viewer of the movie. He’s the director, writer, and producer.
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Postby Hanafuridake » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:03 am

Korhal IVV wrote:Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.


“Child sacrifice is bad, and to prove why, we're going to massacre an entire civilization man, woman, and child.”

The reasoning here is incredible.
Korhal IVV wrote:with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it)


You think the Canaanites committed human sacrifice just to do it, and not because they labored under the belief in a cruel and bloodthirsty deity?
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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:13 am

The Grims wrote:
Korhal IVV wrote:Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.

Don’t get me started with the Crusades, because Pope Urban only wanted to establish himself as leader of a United Christendom. In other words, not exactly a God-given reason.


IIRC Jesus was accused of running a cult of cannibalism as well (most likely due to a misunderstanding of the ritual of the host).
Judging people on accusations alone might not be the best idea ever.


You're sort of in the right historical area, but you're off on the details. This sort of attack was common in early debates between pagans and Christians.

Take, for example, the Octavius, a 2nd-century Christian apologetic dialogue between a hypothetical pagan and a Christian. The pagan figure in the Octavius attacks the Christian figure for cannabilism, stating that he hears that Christians eat the flesh of their children in their secret rituals. The Christian figure deflects this by stating that the pagan is simply misunderstanding the Eucharist. The pagan then goes on to accuse Christians of being incestuous atheists, charges which are also deflected.

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The New California Republic
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Posts: 11872
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:43 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:*Looks for the word "liar" in that quote, or words to that effect*

I'm not seeing it.

*Looks again*

I'm still not seeing it.

I'll ask again: show me where I called you a liar.

Today's word of the day, "implied"

You accused me of calling you a liar multiple times, you never said that I implied you were a liar:
Australian rePublic wrote: yet you called me a liar because I rejected that "Hitler is atheists=atheists are Hitler". You baselessly called me a liar for that, then point out me baselessly calling someone a liar. That makes you a hypocrite

So I will ask yet again: where did I call you a liar? Where?
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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The Archregimancy
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Posts: 22748
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:01 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Today's word of the day, "implied"

You accused me of calling you a liar multiple times, you never said that I implied you were a liar:
Australian rePublic wrote: yet you called me a liar because I rejected that "Hitler is atheists=atheists are Hitler". You baselessly called me a liar for that, then point out me baselessly calling someone a liar. That makes you a hypocrite

So I will ask yet again: where did I call you a liar? Where?


Knock it off you two.

I can't moderate this thread now that I've posted seriously in it, but this exchange is unhelpful.

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The New California Republic
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Posts: 11872
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:14 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:You accused me of calling you a liar multiple times, you never said that I implied you were a liar:

So I will ask yet again: where did I call you a liar? Where?


Knock it off you two.

I can't moderate this thread now that I've posted seriously in it, but this exchange is unhelpful.

Sorry Arch. Shifted goalposts just irk me. :p

EDIT: plus I didn't see the thread in M that is related to this topic, and I wouldn't have posted had I seen it, sorry x 2.
Last edited by The New California Republic on Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Korhal IVV
Minister
 
Posts: 3394
Founded: Aug 29, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Korhal IVV » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:11 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Korhal IVV wrote:Eliminating the Canaanites and the others -ites is akin to purging cancer cells from a human body. They had the WORST religious practices, like Child sacrifices. Allowing them to live (which was Israel’s big mistake) allowed them to intermarry with Israelites, therefore infecting the chosen people with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it), and thus setting off the dark times that was the time of the Judges.


“Child sacrifice is bad, and to prove why, we're going to massacre an entire civilization man, woman, and child.”

The reasoning here is incredible.
Korhal IVV wrote:with their relatavistic ideologies (whatever you want to do, do it)


You think the Canaanites committed human sacrifice just to do it, and not because they labored under the belief in a cruel and bloodthirsty deity?

1. That is not the point. The point is that it has been proven several times that the Israelites are incredibly susceptible to being captured by idolatry (For example, the golden calf and the scandal at Peor), and intermarrying with the other nations would make them lose their national identity as a chosen people, separate from all the idolatrous nations of the surrounding region. The Canaanites were also intent on fighting Israel anyway, with the exception of the Gibeonites. Others survived due to Israel’s negligence and ended up turning the nation to idolatry.

2. Nope.

That is what their morality is in general. They were the worst of the worst in terms of morality.

They do human sacrifices for Baal and Ashtoreth, yes.

Dogmeat wrote:
Korhal IVV wrote:3. Doesn't mean that God would have wanted Christians under the New Covenant to crusade against Saracens. The New Testament Christians were explicitly pacifistic. The Crusades were a produce of the inclusion of formerly pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

I'm totally willing to concede that pagan traditions have worked their way into various aspects of Christianity, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that they just laid dormant for the better part of a thousand years before manifesting a Crusade out of nowhere.

Christianity went through a lot of changes in the High Medieval period - from that weird Affective Spirituality movement with its Jesus-porn, to the formation of a persecuting society - but they're not pagan. You guys did this to yourselves.

Which were the result of the inclusion of politics and irrationality as well as the stagnation in the Church.

It would seem that the Inquisitors, nay, the majority of the Church forgot that “Love thy neighbour” even existed. If the Apostles were alive they would have denounced all of these hideous things as heresy.
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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 412
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:24 am

I'm an atheist, Because 18 of my friends and my ex girlfriend all died in various terrible ways and no amount of praying saved them. Good people suffer and according to religion, an all powerful being who could save them simply sits there and watches and does nothing, which is the ultimate cruelty
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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