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Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:49 pm

Nazis in Space wrote:
The blAAtschApen wrote:So who is your favourite?

Beckenbauer?

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Segral
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Postby Segral » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:52 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:All I read in this thread is "cancer, cancer, cancer". Let me tell you a story. I almost died when I was 5 years old (not from cancer, but death is death). I don't even know how I survived this long. In addition to that, and seperate to that, I have a genetic disease called Thallasemia Minor, I have aspberger's syndrome. All of these don't mean that God isn't real. All of these don't mean that God is evil. Just because you don't understand why God does something, it doesn't mean that God is evil. I learnt that the hard way. (And no, before you strawman me, I am NOT saying that cancer is good. We should try to fight cancer as hard as possible, as we are doing, which is an excellent thing). Atheists keep talking about how morality is subjective, and indeed, 200 years ago, it was perfectly considered perfectly acceptable to think that one race was superior to other races, yet we changed our perspective of that, why? (Well, in all honesty, because Hitler took that concept way too far, causing the rest of us to see how idiotic it was.) Up until 200 years ago, slavery was perfectly acceptable, but then we abandoned it, why, I don't know. Now as for cancer, cancer is an evil and horrible thing, I rhink so, you think so and God thinks so. So why does God allow such a horrid thing to exist? I don't know. What I do know however, is that we humans cannot agree on what is good and evil, because we don't have access to the bigger picture, God who has access to the bigger picture, is capable of knowing how to run the universe, and has remained fairly consistant with His morality. Why does God allow cancer? Does He enjoy watch people suffer? No, of coarse not, in fact, it's the opposite, God suffers with them. So why does He allow cancer? I don't know. All I know ia that God is more knowlegable than me. Trying to argue that God is evil for the simple reason that you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your mechanic is evil because you don't understand why He changed the motor oil. Trying to argue that God is evil because you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your hotel receptionist is evil, because you don't understand why she's charging you for room service, etc.



First off, your story is inspiring man, that must have been very difficult to get through.

I agree with you that just because cancer and "bad things" in this world exist doesn't mean God isn't real. I believe that God puts us through these challenges and trials to make humanity stronger and keep the balance in life (of course, I don't mean that God is the once causing brain tumors, but as I said before, I believe God has a hand in affecting certain aspects of the world), not because he hates us, but because he's a man(?) with a plan. The slavery model isn't the best analogy, as well as some of your other points, but I agree with your basic underlying ideas. Although at the same time, I think this thread should be less about trying to convince others to believe or not believe in God, but rather understanding others perspectives and gaining insights as to what the individual members of this community believe in.
yea bro idk

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:56 pm

Segral wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:All I read in this thread is "cancer, cancer, cancer". Let me tell you a story. I almost died when I was 5 years old (not from cancer, but death is death). I don't even know how I survived this long. In addition to that, and seperate to that, I have a genetic disease called Thallasemia Minor, I have aspberger's syndrome. All of these don't mean that God isn't real. All of these don't mean that God is evil. Just because you don't understand why God does something, it doesn't mean that God is evil. I learnt that the hard way. (And no, before you strawman me, I am NOT saying that cancer is good. We should try to fight cancer as hard as possible, as we are doing, which is an excellent thing). Atheists keep talking about how morality is subjective, and indeed, 200 years ago, it was perfectly considered perfectly acceptable to think that one race was superior to other races, yet we changed our perspective of that, why? (Well, in all honesty, because Hitler took that concept way too far, causing the rest of us to see how idiotic it was.) Up until 200 years ago, slavery was perfectly acceptable, but then we abandoned it, why, I don't know. Now as for cancer, cancer is an evil and horrible thing, I rhink so, you think so and God thinks so. So why does God allow such a horrid thing to exist? I don't know. What I do know however, is that we humans cannot agree on what is good and evil, because we don't have access to the bigger picture, God who has access to the bigger picture, is capable of knowing how to run the universe, and has remained fairly consistant with His morality. Why does God allow cancer? Does He enjoy watch people suffer? No, of coarse not, in fact, it's the opposite, God suffers with them. So why does He allow cancer? I don't know. All I know ia that God is more knowlegable than me. Trying to argue that God is evil for the simple reason that you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your mechanic is evil because you don't understand why He changed the motor oil. Trying to argue that God is evil because you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your hotel receptionist is evil, because you don't understand why she's charging you for room service, etc.



First off, your story is inspiring man, that must have been very difficult to get through.

I agree with you that just because cancer and "bad things" in this world exist doesn't mean God isn't real. I believe that God puts us through these challenges and trials to make humanity stronger and keep the balance in life (of course, I don't mean that God is the once causing brain tumors, but as I said before, I believe God has a hand in affecting certain aspects of the world), not because he hates us, but because he's a man(?) with a plan. The slavery model isn't the best analogy, as well as some of your other points, but I agree with your basic underlying ideas. Although at the same time, I think this thread should be less about trying to convince others to believe or not believe in God, but rather understanding others perspectives and gaining insights as to what the individual members of this community believe in.

Well, that was my initial plan for this thread, but I'm thinking, why can't we have both?
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Segral
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Postby Segral » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:02 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
Segral wrote:

First off, your story is inspiring man, that must have been very difficult to get through.

I agree with you that just because cancer and "bad things" in this world exist doesn't mean God isn't real. I believe that God puts us through these challenges and trials to make humanity stronger and keep the balance in life (of course, I don't mean that God is the once causing brain tumors, but as I said before, I believe God has a hand in affecting certain aspects of the world), not because he hates us, but because he's a man(?) with a plan. The slavery model isn't the best analogy, as well as some of your other points, but I agree with your basic underlying ideas. Although at the same time, I think this thread should be less about trying to convince others to believe or not believe in God, but rather understanding others perspectives and gaining insights as to what the individual members of this community believe in.

Well, that was my initial plan for this thread, but I'm thinking, why can't we have both?


Well, I know from personal experience that I don't like it when people shove their beliefs on/try to convince me that they are right about religion, even to the point of trying to convince me that my beliefs are false and nonexistent (happened once). Plus, we could always try to hold ourselves to a better standard than the rest of NSG ;)
yea bro idk

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:11 pm

Segral wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Well, that was my initial plan for this thread, but I'm thinking, why can't we have both?


Well, I know from personal experience that I don't like it when people shove their beliefs on/try to convince me that they are right about religion, even to the point of trying to convince me that my beliefs are false and nonexistent (happened once). Plus, we could always try to hold ourselves to a better standard than the rest of NSG ;)

Then why are you actively and willing participating in a thread whose entire purpose is to give you other's perspectives of religion?
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Asherahan » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:12 pm

I am a ireligious anti theist.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:14 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
Segral wrote:

First off, your story is inspiring man, that must have been very difficult to get through.

I agree with you that just because cancer and "bad things" in this world exist doesn't mean God isn't real. I believe that God puts us through these challenges and trials to make humanity stronger and keep the balance in life (of course, I don't mean that God is the once causing brain tumors, but as I said before, I believe God has a hand in affecting certain aspects of the world), not because he hates us, but because he's a man(?) with a plan. The slavery model isn't the best analogy, as well as some of your other points, but I agree with your basic underlying ideas. Although at the same time, I think this thread should be less about trying to convince others to believe or not believe in God, but rather understanding others perspectives and gaining insights as to what the individual members of this community believe in.

Well, that was my initial plan for this thread, but I'm thinking, why can't we have both?


Both what? Gaining insights and convincing others?
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:14 pm

Segral wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:All I read in this thread is "cancer, cancer, cancer". Let me tell you a story. I almost died when I was 5 years old (not from cancer, but death is death). I don't even know how I survived this long. In addition to that, and seperate to that, I have a genetic disease called Thallasemia Minor, I have aspberger's syndrome. All of these don't mean that God isn't real. All of these don't mean that God is evil. Just because you don't understand why God does something, it doesn't mean that God is evil. I learnt that the hard way. (And no, before you strawman me, I am NOT saying that cancer is good. We should try to fight cancer as hard as possible, as we are doing, which is an excellent thing). Atheists keep talking about how morality is subjective, and indeed, 200 years ago, it was perfectly considered perfectly acceptable to think that one race was superior to other races, yet we changed our perspective of that, why? (Well, in all honesty, because Hitler took that concept way too far, causing the rest of us to see how idiotic it was.) Up until 200 years ago, slavery was perfectly acceptable, but then we abandoned it, why, I don't know. Now as for cancer, cancer is an evil and horrible thing, I rhink so, you think so and God thinks so. So why does God allow such a horrid thing to exist? I don't know. What I do know however, is that we humans cannot agree on what is good and evil, because we don't have access to the bigger picture, God who has access to the bigger picture, is capable of knowing how to run the universe, and has remained fairly consistant with His morality. Why does God allow cancer? Does He enjoy watch people suffer? No, of coarse not, in fact, it's the opposite, God suffers with them. So why does He allow cancer? I don't know. All I know ia that God is more knowlegable than me. Trying to argue that God is evil for the simple reason that you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your mechanic is evil because you don't understand why He changed the motor oil. Trying to argue that God is evil because you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your hotel receptionist is evil, because you don't understand why she's charging you for room service, etc.



First off, your story is inspiring man, that must have been very difficult to get through.

I agree with you that just because cancer and "bad things" in this world exist doesn't mean God isn't real. I believe that God puts us through these challenges and trials to make humanity stronger and keep the balance in life (of course, I don't mean that God is the once causing brain tumors, but as I said before, I believe God has a hand in affecting certain aspects of the world), not because he hates us, but because he's a man(?) with a plan. The slavery model isn't the best analogy, as well as some of your other points, but I agree with your basic underlying ideas. Although at the same time, I think this thread should be less about trying to convince others to believe or not believe in God, but rather understanding others perspectives and gaining insights as to what the individual members of this community believe in.

Fun fact, (this is something I've learnt from my tourism/hospitality degree) Did you know that room service is very rarely profitable? I most cases, it makes a loss? :)
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Postby Segral » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:16 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
Segral wrote:
Well, I know from personal experience that I don't like it when people shove their beliefs on/try to convince me that they are right about religion, even to the point of trying to convince me that my beliefs are false and nonexistent (happened once). Plus, we could always try to hold ourselves to a better standard than the rest of NSG ;)

Then why are you actively and willing participating in a thread whose entire purpose is to give you other's perspectives of religion?


Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't want to hear about other's perspectives on religion. I would just rather hear about it in a constructive and acknowledgeable debate over having people try to convince me of what is the "right" opinion. Not calling out anyone in particular, just sayin' that I think it would be best if we didn't stray into a toxic territory.
yea bro idk

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Postby The World Capitalist Confederation » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:16 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:All I read in this thread is "cancer, cancer, cancer". Let me tell you a story. I almost died when I was 5 years old (not from cancer, but death is death). I don't even know how I survived this long. In addition to that, and seperate to that, I have a genetic disease called Thallasemia Minor, I have aspberger's syndrome. All of these don't mean that God isn't real. All of these don't mean that God is evil. Just because you don't understand why God does something, it doesn't mean that God is evil. I learnt that the hard way. (And no, before you strawman me, I am NOT saying that cancer is good. We should try to fight cancer as hard as possible, as we are doing, which is an excellent thing). Atheists keep talking about how morality is subjective, and indeed, 200 years ago, it was perfectly considered perfectly acceptable to think that one race was superior to other races, yet we changed our perspective of that, why? (Well, in all honesty, because Hitler took that concept way too far, causing the rest of us to see how idiotic it was.) Up until 200 years ago, slavery was perfectly acceptable, but then we abandoned it, why, I don't know. Now as for cancer, cancer is an evil and horrible thing, I rhink so, you think so and God thinks so. So why does God allow such a horrid thing to exist? I don't know. What I do know however, is that we humans cannot agree on what is good and evil, because we don't have access to the bigger picture, God who has access to the bigger picture, is capable of knowing how to run the universe, and has remained fairly consistant with His morality. Why does God allow cancer? Does He enjoy watch people suffer? No, of coarse not, in fact, it's the opposite, God suffers with them. So why does He allow cancer? I don't know. All I know ia that God is more knowlegable than me. Trying to argue that God is evil for the simple reason that you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your mechanic is evil because you don't understand why He changed the motor oil. Trying to argue that God is evil because you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your hotel receptionist is evil, because you don't understand why she's charging you for room service, etc.

It doesn't matter about the will of some completely random, immeasurable and therefore infinitely weak being. It only matters what exists in the universe. Stories don't help your argument, it's really just fluff if I'm being honest. Logical arguments are supposed to be made from reason and evidence, not your own experiences (doing so, in fact, is a logical fallacy). Do you know the real, honest answer slavery was banned? Because of economic interest. Rich industrialists banned slavery in order to get a larger share of the market. Simple as that. There is no objective morality and there is no right or wrong, just whatever exists in the universe. We can't keep pleading ignorance. If such a being wants to keep us in the dark from why, it clearly has extremely bad intentions. There is no reason for it to be hiding something unless it is attempting to kill the human race. So, again, I posit two possible solutions:

1. There is an evil/morally ignorant deity.
2. There are no deities.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:18 pm

Segral wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Then why are you actively and willing participating in a thread whose entire purpose is to give you other's perspectives of religion?


Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't want to hear about other's perspectives on religion. I would just rather hear about it in a constructive and acknowledgeable debate over having people try to convince me of what is the "right" opinion. Not calling out anyone in particular, just sayin' that I think it would be best if we didn't stray into a toxic territory.

Fair enough
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:20 pm

The blAAtschApen wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Well, that was my initial plan for this thread, but I'm thinking, why can't we have both?


Both what? Gaining insights and convincing others?

My initial plan was gaining insights, but I can't see why we can't do both- gain insights and convince others
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Postby New Merakh » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:21 pm

When I was younger, I hated G-d and religion as a whole. I had such negative experiences with in growing up in a deeply Baptist area that I didn't feel welcomed in. I used to lie in bed trying to pray, trying to ask for a sign or proof that a god was out there. Of course, nothing happened, but I still sought out spiritual and religious ways to interpret the world and myself. For me personally, converting to Judaism (which I am still in the process of doing) was the perfect middle ground between blind hatred and blind faith. The values of questioning and wrestling with G-d makes it easy for me to 'believe' in G-d while still questioning what G-d is, if they are real, if their actions are just, if they plays a role in the world as it is today for better or for worse.

I feel satisfied to believe in G-d, but recognize G-d is sometimes a shitty, absentee father even when they want the best for you
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Postby Ausinia » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:24 pm

The blAAtschApen wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:So all of you who refuse to believe in God, because of lack of evidence, where do you stand on aliens?


I believe aliens exist.

I am one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_(law)

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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:04 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:So all of you who refuse to believe in God, because of lack of evidence, where do you stand on aliens?

I believe they probably exist. Universe is way too big for earth to be the only planet with sentient life.

But at the moment we dont know for sure.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:08 pm

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:We, as Orthodox Christians, don't believe that we're born in sim

Well, that's not true.

Ha. This is very different to everything I've read from Orthodox sources
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:09 pm

The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:So all of you who refuse to believe in God, because of lack of evidence, where do you stand on aliens?


I mean, I'm not technically the right person to ask *cough*Deism*cough*, but I find the existence of extraterrestrial life to be as of yet uncertain, but probable given the vastness of the cosmos/creation and the large numbers of potentially habitable exoplanets out there.

But do you have any proof?
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Postby New Legland » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:21 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
I mean, I'm not technically the right person to ask *cough*Deism*cough*, but I find the existence of extraterrestrial life to be as of yet uncertain, but probable given the vastness of the cosmos/creation and the large numbers of potentially habitable exoplanets out there.

But do you have any proof?

There's a number differences between a belief in aliens and a belief in a god. You can't use the same logic to justify belief for both of them. I assume the point you're trying to make is that there is a sort of atheist hypocrisy here, right?
Last edited by New Legland on Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:21 pm

Dogmeat wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Point Number 2: Nope. The Bible, in the original Hebrew, uses the word "Yom". "Yom" can apparently mean any number of things , a physical day "24 hours" (the most common translation), an unspecified amount of time, an unspecified consistant length of time, millenia, or anything else, really

This is kind of silly, since Genesis even defines what it means by day: "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." So we're clearly talking about actual days.

In English

But even if it were true that these are epochs or something, the story still gets the order of everything wrong. With God creating the Earth and plantlife before the sun and stars. So it doesn't matter how long the days are, the story is still clearly wrong.

In English

Australian rePublic wrote:Then let's use the same arguments that most atheists have used here against God. If it's not an explosion, why is it called "Big Bang"

Fred Hoyle came up with the name as an insult. It's not something scientists are committed to, it just sort of stuck.

My point is that we shouldn't get too caught up o n terminology
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:24 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
I mean, I'm not technically the right person to ask *cough*Deism*cough*, but I find the existence of extraterrestrial life to be as of yet uncertain, but probable given the vastness of the cosmos/creation and the large numbers of potentially habitable exoplanets out there.

But do you have any proof?

This is where calling it evidence is actually more appropriate. We do actually have evidence of extraterrestrial life. Ourselves. That we exist is evidence of the possibility of life elsewhere.
Now by no means is it proof, but it is evidence.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:24 pm

New Legland wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:But do you have any proof?

There's a number differences between a belief in aliens and a belief in a god. You can't use the same logic to justify belief for both of them.

Why?
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Postby Andsed » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
New Legland wrote:There's a number differences between a belief in aliens and a belief in a god. You can't use the same logic to justify belief for both of them.

Why?

Because there is much more evidence for aliens and it is much more possible they exist than god. Don’t be obtuse.
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Ok lets get back on topic so we don´t get this thread locked thanks to talking about my church windmill dancing.
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NationStates going from serious debates about homosexuality to jokes about Jesus a marijuana dealer in the span of one to two posts since November 13 2002.
Sorry my mind is always in the gutter no it lives in gutter my mind is fuckin called pennywise it is in the gutter so much.
How does one outsource racism? Do you like get an Indian guy to call people and call them racial slurs?

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Farnhamia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:27 pm

Andsed wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Why?

Because there is much more evidence for aliens and it is much more possible they exist than god. Don’t be obtuse.

Pardon me, but evidence for aliens? What would that be? I would love to learn.
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Australian rePublic
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Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:29 pm

Andsed wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Why?

Because there is much more evidence for aliens and it is much more possible they exist than god. Don’t be obtuse.

What evidence, exactly?
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Andsed
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Founded: Aug 24, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Andsed » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:30 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Andsed wrote:Because there is much more evidence for aliens and it is much more possible they exist than god. Don’t be obtuse.

Pardon me, but evidence for aliens? What would that be? I would love to learn.

Okay evidence is the wrong word so let me rephrase. We know that intelligent life can and does exist in the universe because we exist. We also know there are many worlds that have similar conditions to earth so with these two pieces of knowledge we can say it is possible than alien life exist. We cannot say the same for god.
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Ok lets get back on topic so we don´t get this thread locked thanks to talking about my church windmill dancing.
Andsed is not legally responsible for any injuries that may occur if you take this seriously and somehow get a trebuchet and try to fling yourself into a plane. You fucking dumbass
NationStates going from serious debates about homosexuality to jokes about Jesus a marijuana dealer in the span of one to two posts since November 13 2002.
Sorry my mind is always in the gutter no it lives in gutter my mind is fuckin called pennywise it is in the gutter so much.
How does one outsource racism? Do you like get an Indian guy to call people and call them racial slurs?

LOVEWHOYOUARE~

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