NationStates

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:06 am**

Forestavia wrote:
Frievolk wrote:... Because it's suffering. I don't need a deep philosophical reason to rationalize "things that make my life hard are inherently bad [for me]."

It's true that emotional pain and physical pain don't feel good. But suffering is at the core of our experience on earth.

Note that if your god exists, then this is entirely and completely his fault. Thus, once again, we're back to him being evil.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:07 am**

Forestavia wrote:
Frievolk wrote:No. If you accept the existence of a god, then your suffering is inherently his fault. Either by criminal-level negligence (The type that would probably land you to jail if you did to your pets, much less """""'''''children'''''""""" -adopted or otherwise), or by intentional action.
Your recommended view is classical abuse victim mentality, "If my abuser torments me, it must be my fault/there's nothing I can do/they might know better". It's that supposedly existing god's fault, and only his. If god exists, he should be scorned and hated, not worshiped.

The only thing I can really claim about God is that God is one because that's what I know for sure. I'm not in a position to argue for God's existence or God's nonexistence. The funny thing is when an atheist claims that God does not exist, it's kind of true. God does not exist the way we think God does. When a theist claims that God is omnipresent, it's kind of true. God is everywhere at the same time. This is really beyond the powers of language because somehow God is SO complete that God transcends existence itself. God is even above nonexistence. I don't know how this works. I don't know why it works. All I know is things are happening all around me. Life is happening.

There is no victim mentality. There is no abuse. There is only love. Again, you're viewing God as separate from us. You're judging God as being evil because you are judging suffering as evil. Suffering does not have to be evil. You have the power to free yourself from that belief. You have to power to view and experience suffering just as it is. Suffering is not separate from you, suffering is part of who you are. You can accept it or you fight it.

You're claiming that your god tortures people, and that this is a good thing. That's absolutely abuse, and it's absolutely Stockholm syndrome.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:14 am**

Forestavia wrote:
The only thing I can really claim about God is that God is one because that's what I know for sure. I'm not in a position to argue for God's existence or God's nonexistence. The funny thing is when an atheist claims that God does not exist, it's kind of true. God does not exist the way we think God does. When a theist claims that God is omnipresent, it's kind of true. God is everywhere at the same time. This is really beyond the powers of language because somehow God is SO complete that God transcends existence itself. God is even above nonexistence. I don't know how this works. I don't know why it works. All I know is things are happening all around me. Life is happening.

There is no victim mentality. There is no abuse. There is only love. Again, you're viewing God as separate from us. You're judging God as being evil because you are judging suffering as evil. Suffering does not have to be evil. You have the power to free yourself from that belief. You have to power to view and experience suffering just as it is. Suffering is not separate from you, suffering is part of who you are. You can accept it or you fight it.

Look, there is no way around it. If your god exists (and if it does, if there is only one of him), then anything bad happening in the world is his fault -either directly in case of natural disasters or indirectly in case of human action-, because he is the only individual with the ability to stop it before it happens. That he doesn't [stop it before it happens] makes him guilty. Letting the child touch fire and burn so "he learns fire is hot" may sounds wise, but it's a dumb idea and anyone adhering to it must be thrown in jail for abuse.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:17 am**

Salandriagado wrote:
Forestavia wrote:
Okay, I'm gonna try this a different way. Suffering is one of the few things that unites all of mankind. Every human being understands, knows, experiences, and feels suffering at some point in life, in some way, shape, or form.
Why do you think suffering is such a bad thing?

For the same reason that all suffering is a bad thing. I remind you, again, that you're literally defending torturing children.

You will continue to view suffering as evil and childhood cancer as divine torture until the day when you accept suffering as part of your reality. You can view suffering as the enemy or you can accept it nonjudgmentally. You won't be free until you accept suffering unconditionally as a part of life. This is a hard step. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes. You should have seen the way I cursed God a year ago over sufferings that were happening in my life. Man, I get it. I was there. This is a hard pill to swallow and this is a hard step to take. But when you take that step I can't even begin to describe the peace, the harmony, the love. I found out the hard way what the secret to happiness is. Counterintuitively, it's acceptance of the fact that happiness is not a guarantee in life. Make peace with this truth. See how it changes your life. See for yourself.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:25 am**

Forestavia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
For the same reason that all suffering is a bad thing. I remind you, again, that you're literally defending torturing children.

You will continue to view suffering as evil and childhood cancer as divine torture until the day when you accept suffering as part of your reality. You can view suffering as the enemy or you can accept it nonjudgmentally. You won't be free until you accept suffering unconditionally as a part of life. This is a hard step. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes. You should have seen the way I cursed God a year ago over sufferings that were happening in my life. Man, I get it. I was there. This is a hard pill to swallow and this is a hard step to take. But when you take that step I can't even begin to describe the peace, the harmony, the love. I found out the hard way what the secret to happiness is. Counterintuitively, it's acceptance of the fact that happiness is not a guarantee in life. Make peace with this truth. See how it changes your life. See for yourself.

Cancer in children tends to kill them.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:26 am**

Frievolk wrote:Look, there is no way around it. If your god exists (and if it does, if there is only one of him), then anything bad happening in the world is his fault -either directly in case of natural disasters or indirectly in case of human action-, because he is the only individual with the ability to stop it before it happens. That he doesn't [stop it before it happens] makes him guilty. Letting the child touch fire and burn so "he learns fire is hot" may sounds wise, but it's a dumb idea and anyone adhering to it must be thrown in jail for abuse.

The thing is you're placing limits on God and you're also judging God with human standards of morality. You are limiting God only to existence. God is just as nonexistent as God is existent. God renders existence and nonexistence irrelevant. God is even above morality.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:28 am**

Forestavia wrote:
Frievolk wrote:Look, there is no way around it. If your god exists (and if it does, if there is only one of him), then anything bad happening in the world is his fault -either directly in case of natural disasters or indirectly in case of human action-, because he is the only individual with the ability to stop it before it happens. That he doesn't [stop it before it happens] makes him guilty. Letting the child touch fire and burn so "he learns fire is hot" may sounds wise, but it's a dumb idea and anyone adhering to it must be thrown in jail for abuse.

The thing is you're placing limits on God and you're also judging God with human standards of morality. You are limiting God only to existence. God is just as nonexistent as God is existent. God renders existence and nonexistence irrelevant. God is even above morality.

Well first of course I am judging god on human standards, just like I judge everyone else on human standards, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is this thing called the law of non-contradiction, you just broke it. As to your god being above morality, no, he isn't. It is actions that are moral, immoral, or amoral, and who is doing those actions does not matter; what matters is under what circumstances they are doing those actions.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:29 am**

Forestavia wrote:
Frievolk wrote:Look, there is no way around it. If your god exists (and if it does, if there is only one of him), then anything bad happening in the world is his fault -either directly in case of natural disasters or indirectly in case of human action-, because he is the only individual with the ability to stop it before it happens. That he doesn't [stop it before it happens] makes him guilty. Letting the child touch fire and burn so "he learns fire is hot" may sounds wise, but it's a dumb idea and anyone adhering to it must be thrown in jail for abuse.

The thing is you're placing limits on God and you're also judging God with human standards of morality. You are limiting God only to existence. God is just as nonexistent as God is existent. God renders existence and nonexistence irrelevant. God is even above morality.

Nope. God doesn't get that leeway. He exists, he has the power, he's responsible. If he doesn't do his responsibility, what happens is his fault and he should be hated and despised for it.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:29 am**

Forestavia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
For the same reason that all suffering is a bad thing. I remind you, again, that you're literally defending torturing children.

You will continue to view suffering as evil and childhood cancer as divine torture until the day when you accept suffering as part of your reality. You can view suffering as the enemy or you can accept it nonjudgmentally. You won't be free until you accept suffering unconditionally as a part of life. This is a hard step. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes. You should have seen the way I cursed God a year ago over sufferings that were happening in my life. Man, I get it. I was there. This is a hard pill to swallow and this is a hard step to take. But when you take that step I can't even begin to describe the peace, the harmony, the love. I found out the hard way what the secret to happiness is. Counterintuitively, it's acceptance of the fact that happiness is not a guarantee in life. Make peace with this truth. See how it changes your life. See for yourself.

This is literally textbook Stockholm syndrome.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:30 am**

Forestavia wrote:
Frievolk wrote:Look, there is no way around it. If your god exists (and if it does, if there is only one of him), then anything bad happening in the world is his fault -either directly in case of natural disasters or indirectly in case of human action-, because he is the only individual with the ability to stop it before it happens. That he doesn't [stop it before it happens] makes him guilty. Letting the child touch fire and burn so "he learns fire is hot" may sounds wise, but it's a dumb idea and anyone adhering to it must be thrown in jail for abuse.

The thing is you're placing limits on God and you're also judging God with human standards of morality. You are limiting God only to existence. God is just as nonexistent as God is existent. God renders existence and nonexistence irrelevant. God is even above morality.

That's not a thing. Morality is about actions, not entities. An action either is evil, or isn't. It's not dependent on who's doing the action.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:30 am**

Salandriagado wrote:
Forestavia wrote:You will continue to view suffering as evil and childhood cancer as divine torture until the day when you accept suffering as part of your reality. You can view suffering as the enemy or you can accept it nonjudgmentally. You won't be free until you accept suffering unconditionally as a part of life. This is a hard step. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes. You should have seen the way I cursed God a year ago over sufferings that were happening in my life. Man, I get it. I was there. This is a hard pill to swallow and this is a hard step to take. But when you take that step I can't even begin to describe the peace, the harmony, the love. I found out the hard way what the secret to happiness is. Counterintuitively, it's acceptance of the fact that happiness is not a guarantee in life. Make peace with this truth. See how it changes your life. See for yourself.

This is literally textbook Stockholm syndrome.

I love how often certain people make God out to be the abusive partner or parent.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:44 am**

The Alma Mater wrote:Cancer in children tends to kill them.

If you discover what God really is for yourself, death won't bother you anymore. You can conquer death, forever. Not in a literal humans-become-immortal sort of way but "spiritually". I don't even know if "spiritually" is the right word to use for this. But to go through the narrow door you have to set down all of the baggage that you are carrying. You have to simplify everything about yourself and your life. This includes suspending all preconceived notions of God, whether they are beliefs or disbeliefs. Even your opinions about cancer should be suspended. Enter a state of nonjudgmental neutrality. Accept everything just the way it is, unconditionally. Deny the self completely. Die to the self. Surrender. See what happens.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:49 am**

Forestavia wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Cancer in children tends to kill them.

If you discover what God really is for yourself, death won't bother you anymore. You can conquer death, forever. Not in a literal humans-become-immortal sort of way but "spiritually". I don't even know if "spiritually" is the right word to use for this. But to go through the narrow door you have to set down all of the baggage that you are carrying. You have to simplify everything about yourself and your life. This includes suspending all preconceived notions of God, whether they are beliefs or disbeliefs. Even your opinions about cancer should be suspended. Enter a state of nonjudgmental neutrality. Accept everything just the way it is, unconditionally. Deny the self completely. Die to the self. Surrender. See what happens.

I'd rather carry on thinking that cancer is bad than try to achieve ataraxia.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:52 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
Texanese United Union wrote:
I got to ask: Do you wanna hear the truth or a lie ? It will decide what I say.

Wh...what?

o.k, you asked me, yes ? Therefore I am not responsible if you get upset about it. 1. People die. 2. YOU will die 3. Heaven does not exist 4. Hell does not exist. 5. You will disappear after death, never to think again. This is the reality you try to deny with your religions. But have you ever SEEN "God" ? You read words in a book and think it's reality. It's not, no more then if I read a Harry Potter book.
The universe is like it is because it's completely natural. I am sorry to rain on your parade, but you said you want the truth and here it is.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:56 am**

Forestavia wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Cancer in children tends to kill them.

If you discover what God really is for yourself, death won't bother you anymore.

All evidence to the contrary given that all people morn when someone they love dies. Oh and God being for you is also against all evidence.

You can conquer death, forever. Not in a literal humans-become-immortal sort of way but "spiritually". I don't even know if "spiritually" is the right word to use for this.

What does it mean to conquer death "spiritually".

But to go through the narrow door you have to set down all of the baggage that you are carrying.

That would be true whether a god exists or not, since when you die you stop existing.

You have to simplify everything about yourself and your life.

relevance?

This includes suspending all preconceived notions of God, whether they are beliefs or disbeliefs. Even your opinions about cancer should be suspended.

Funny thing, I base my beliefs about a specific god explained to me based on the characteristics explained to me. Some Christians for instance do not believe the bible is innerant or in many parts accurate and so using the bible against them is useless

Enter a state of nonjudgmental neutrality. Accept everything just the way it is, unconditionally. Deny the self completely. Die to the self. Surrender. See what happens.

...No. What you just described is pure gullibility, nothing else. The sense of self is one of the things that gives at least some protects from abuse. Everything you are saying right here,it is something that an abuser would say to take advantage of their victim.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:59 am**

Salandriagado wrote:
Forestavia wrote:The thing is you're placing limits on God and you're also judging God with human standards of morality. You are limiting God only to existence. God is just as nonexistent as God is existent. God renders existence and nonexistence irrelevant. God is even above morality.

That's not a thing. Morality is about actions, not entities. An action either is evil, or isn't. It's not dependent on who's doing the action.

It totally is a thing. God is bigger than you think. God is not what you think it is. You and I are part of something really, really big. There are no words to describe this! There are no words.

God is above good and evil. The battle between good and evil is only just one game we can play on earth. It's a small time operation. Good and evil is miniscule compared to the size of God. God doesn't judge good and evil the way us humans do. How do I know this? God is without pride. God is love. And in love there are no comparisons. God is pure. God is perfect. And from that point of view everything is perfect just the way it is (yes, even the suffering).

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:05 pm**

Forestavia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
That's not a thing. Morality is about actions, not entities. An action either is evil, or isn't. It's not dependent on who's doing the action.

It totally is a thing. God is bigger than you think. God is not what you think it is. You and I are part of something really, really big. There are no words to describe this! There are no words.

God is above good and evil. The battle between good and evil is only just one game we can play on earth. It's a small time operation. Good and evil is miniscule compared to the size of God. God doesn't judge good and evil the way us humans do. How do I know this? God is without pride. God is love. And in love there are no comparisons. God is pure. God is perfect. And from that point of view everything is perfect just the way it is (yes, even the suffering).

This is just bullshit. "Good" and "evil" are descriptions of actions. I, frankly, don't give a flying fuck how your god judges good and evil (which, incidentally, is entirely in contradiction to the god of the bible, who is a big fan of judging good an evil: it's kinda his whole schtick). I am capable of judging good and evil, and by any non-insane definitions, your god is evil. Not pure, not perfect, just evil.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:05 pm**

Forestavia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
That's not a thing. Morality is about actions, not entities. An action either is evil, or isn't. It's not dependent on who's doing the action.

It totally is a thing. God is bigger than you think. God is not what you think it is. You and I are part of something really, really big.

Well sure, I mean the universe is pretty big.

There are no words to describe this! There are no words.

The feels the feels. Still lacks evidence.

God is above good and evil.

Good and evil are about actions, regardless of who is doing them and based on the circumstances under which those actions are taken. No being can be above good and evil.

The battle between good and evil is only just one game we can play on earth. It's a small time operation. Good and evil is miniscule compared to the size of God.

Word salad.

God doesn't judge good and evil the way us humans do.

You seem to know an aweful lot about this god you claimed no one can know.

How do I know this? God is without pride. God is love.

This does not answer how, this is simply further descriptors of a supposedly unknowable creature. Oh and, what you are saying in contradictory to the available evidence.

And in love there are no comparisons. God is pure. God is perfect. And from that point of view everything is perfect just the way it is (yes, even the suffering).

Yay for self contradictory comments.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:06 pm**

Forestavia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
That's not a thing. Morality is about actions, not entities. An action either is evil, or isn't. It's not dependent on who's doing the action.

It totally is a thing. God is bigger than you think. God is not what you think it is. You and I are part of something really, really big. There are no words to describe this! There are no words.

God is above good and evil. The battle between good and evil is only just one game we can play on earth. It's a small time operation. Good and evil is miniscule compared to the size of God. God doesn't judge good and evil the way us humans do. How do I know this? God is without pride. God is love. And in love there are no comparisons. God is pure. God is perfect. And from that point of view everything is perfect just the way it is (yes, even the suffering).

Is is indeed perfectly possible that from Gods universal perspective all He does is good and magnificent and perfect.
That does not mean it is good and magnificent and perfect for humans.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:09 pm**

Salandriagado wrote:
Forestavia wrote:It totally is a thing. God is bigger than you think. God is not what you think it is. You and I are part of something really, really big. There are no words to describe this! There are no words.

God is above good and evil. The battle between good and evil is only just one game we can play on earth. It's a small time operation. Good and evil is miniscule compared to the size of God. God doesn't judge good and evil the way us humans do. How do I know this? God is without pride. God is love. And in love there are no comparisons. God is pure. God is perfect. And from that point of view everything is perfect just the way it is (yes, even the suffering).

This is just bullshit. "Good" and "evil" are descriptions of actions. I, frankly, don't give a flying fuck how your god judges good and evil (which, incidentally, is entirely in contradiction to the god of the bible, who is a big fan of judging good an evil: it's kinda his whole schtick). I am capable of judging good and evil, and by any non-insane definitions, your god is evil. Not pure, not perfect, just evil.

You know, I kinda want to know what definition Forestavia is using for the word perfect, pure and love.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:13 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
This is just bullshit. "Good" and "evil" are descriptions of actions. I, frankly, don't give a flying fuck how your god judges good and evil (which, incidentally, is entirely in contradiction to the god of the bible, who is a big fan of judging good an evil: it's kinda his whole schtick). I am capable of judging good and evil, and by any non-insane definitions, your god is evil. Not pure, not perfect, just evil.

You know, I kinda want to know what definition Forestavia is using for the word perfect, pure and love.

I'm guessing imperfect, impure, and hate respectively.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:14 pm**

Cekoviu wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:You know, I kinda want to know what definition Forestavia is using for the word perfect, pure and love.

I'm guessing imperfect, impure, and hate respectively.

Like I said it is interesting that they are using the same words that an abusive partner uses to control their victim, and that a conman uses to fleece their victim.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:16 pm**

Forestavia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
That's not a thing. Morality is about actions, not entities. An action either is evil, or isn't. It's not dependent on who's doing the action.

It totally is a thing. God is bigger than you think. God is not what you think it is. You and I are part of something really, really big. There are no words to describe this! There are no words.

God is above good and evil. The battle between good and evil is only just one game we can play on earth. It's a small time operation. Good and evil is miniscule compared to the size of God. God doesn't judge good and evil the way us humans do. How do I know this? God is without pride. God is love. And in love there are no comparisons. God is pure. God is perfect. And from that point of view everything is perfect just the way it is (yes, even the suffering).

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:16 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
This is just bullshit. "Good" and "evil" are descriptions of actions. I, frankly, don't give a flying fuck how your god judges good and evil (which, incidentally, is entirely in contradiction to the god of the bible, who is a big fan of judging good an evil: it's kinda his whole schtick). I am capable of judging good and evil, and by any non-insane definitions, your god is evil. Not pure, not perfect, just evil.

You know, I kinda want to know what definition Forestavia is using for the word perfect, pure and love.

I am going to tell you a true story. Usually, nobody picks on children. However, I know for a fact when a guy was a little boy, a Catholic Father molested him. For a number of years, he tried to deliver the Gospel. Of course he was fucking him ten ways to Sunday. In effect, he ruined any belief that he could possibility have about religion because he was stick his fat cock into the kid.
Needles to say, he has become an atheist.

Posted: **Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:16 pm**

Petrolheadia wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:I don't have enough theological training to answer that

So why do you even say it?

Besides, the idea of God just straight-out mixing metaphor with face value and covering it in ahistorical data seems fishy.

God does not mix metaphors. I can't believe how many times I have to repeat this, but once again, God did NOT write the Bible. The Bible was written by humans, in human language of the humans who lived in that era. Humans wrote the Bible, and humans are NOT infallible

NationStates

Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)