Changing what you call the thing in question doesn't change that you're proving it to exist by assuming it exists.
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by Ifreann » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:16 am
by El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:18 am
Kowani wrote:Additionally, in order that to be taken seriously then you’d have to prove that there is an outside of the universe.
Kowani wrote:And even more additionally, you’d have to prove that this being is Allah and not, say, Xaos.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:True, that's something I disagree with in the KCA, I think it should be replaced with "higher power(s)"
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)
by Ifreann » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:28 am
by Kowani » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:35 am
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Kowani wrote:Special pleading. Your conclusion cannot violate your premise.
If you build a phone for example, you're not bound by the laws/inner workings of said phone. It's the same case with Allah SWT building the universe.Kowani wrote:Additionally, in order that to be taken seriously then you’d have to prove that there is an outside of the universe.
The universe is expanding. Hence there's an outside.
by El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am
Ifreann wrote:El-Amin Caliphate wrote:If you build a phone for example, you're not bound by the laws/inner workings of said phone. It's the same case with Allah SWT building the universe.
If there can be things that can exist without needing a cause, how do you know that the universe is not such a thing?
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)
by Christian Confederation » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:41 am
New Legland wrote:Christian Confederation wrote:https://www.ae911truth.org
In 2016, there were 109,748 architects in the U.S. In 2015, there were ~1.6 million engineers in the U.S. Your source claims that 3,104 architects and engineers support them. That's about 0.2% of that group. So no, more architects and engineers definitely do agree with the widely-accepted story of 9/11.
by Des-Bal » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:43 am
Christian Confederation wrote:I'm saying more publicly support a new investigation than the couple dozen that support the official story, here is a lecture of there's I just finished watching.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bc5zF95o-UE
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
Mindset: Logos
by El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:44 am
Kowani wrote:El-Amin Caliphate wrote:If you build a phone for example, you're not bound by the laws/inner workings of said phone. It's the same case with Allah SWT building the universe.
The universe is expanding. Hence there's an outside.
Wrong kind of expansion. The universe isn’t getting any larger, rather, the scale of space itself changes.
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)
by Godular » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:00 am
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Kowani wrote:Wrong kind of expansion. The universe isn’t getting any larger, rather, the scale of space itself changes.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 1498932547
Is this what you're trying to say?: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about- ... termediate
by Neutraligon » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:00 am
Christian Confederation wrote:New Legland wrote:In 2016, there were 109,748 architects in the U.S. In 2015, there were ~1.6 million engineers in the U.S. Your source claims that 3,104 architects and engineers support them. That's about 0.2% of that group. So no, more architects and engineers definitely do agree with the widely-accepted story of 9/11.
I'm saying more publicly support a new investigation than the couple dozen that support the official story, here is a lecture of there's I just finished watching.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bc5zF95o-UE
by Ifreann » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:06 am
I never said "things can exist without a cause", I said "Allah SWT can exist without a cause".
Also, everything in this universe came from something, so it would make sense that the universe itself came from something.
by Neutraligon » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:11 am
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Kowani wrote:So basically, just repurposed Aquinas. Which is still bulls*it.
I barely know who he is. Anyway, here's what the KCA says:
http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/th ... -argument/:(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
by Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:35 am
by Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:38 am
The Archregimancy wrote:Christian Confederation wrote:I think it's just human nature to believe in a higher power.
I personally believe in God because that's what I was taught and as far as I can tell is accurate. Because Jerusalem exists, scintists agree that the flood happened, plus year after year more and more planets are found to have no life make earth apear more and more likely to have been put here by some higher power.
So unless someone can prove me wrong I will believe in God.
Archaeologist and Orthodox Christian.
The Deluge did not happen as recorded in the Old Testament; at best it records a folk memory of earlier floods.
Also:
1) Arguing that the existence of Jerusalem demonstrates the veracity of the Deluge is point-blank bizarre since even by a literal reading of the Bible Jerusalem would have been founded centuries after the Deluge; the existence of the former does not prove the latter.
2) Pinning your religious faith on the lack of known planets with life makes your faith a hostage to events you can't control, and the science of which you appear to understand poorly; especially since our ability to identify exoplanets that might potentially be suitable to life - or indeed to identify life on exoplanets - is exceptionally limited.
Really, I'm embarrassed by the shocking quality of theological argument in this thread. If you were to intentionally set out to start a thread specifically designed to make a certain sub-type of atheist feel smug about the self-evident idiocy of Christian apologetics, it would be hard to better the present discussion.
by Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:41 am
by Salandriagado » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:43 am
by The New California Republic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:44 am
Australian rePublic wrote:The Archregimancy wrote:Really, I'm embarrassed by the shocking quality of theological argument in this thread. If you were to intentionally set out to start a thread specifically designed to make a certain sub-type of atheist feel smug about the self-evident idiocy of Christian apologetics, it would be hard to better the present discussion.
Well what do you do expect? I'm one person, arguing against many at a time. Everyone's targeting my arguments more than anyone else's
by Salandriagado » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:44 am
by The New California Republic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:45 am
by Salandriagado » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:45 am
Australian rePublic wrote:VoVoDoCo wrote:Free to choose? A lot of people are using the idea of free will to explain why God allows evil things to happen, but I don't believe that the bible provides a case for free will. As for the bit about us failing at the beginning, the Soft Theological Determinism tab is best suited.Even if Casual Determinism is somehow wrong, the bible ITSELF doesn't do a convincing job of establishing free will as absolute. There are two kinds of religious determinism: Soft and Hard.1. Imagine you are abstract, objective, and all knowing. You know everything that has been, is, and will be, but you cannot change a single thing. You would see every individual actor go from A (birth) to Z (death) and all the choices, big and small, that happened in between. You would see all this, and nothing could possibly change. All events would happen in an unbreakable chronological design. These events will happen, and there's nothing anyone can do that can stop it. The only way to for those predetermined footsteps to change would be through classic time travel shenanigans. And even then, the event leading to the creation of time travel were predetermined, unalterable, and inevitable. Casual Determinism argues that the inevitability of action means that free will cannot exist, I agree with that.For example, it is through this kind of planning that he was able to predict the crucifixion of the Christ. He didn't FORCE the soldiers to cast lots for his clothes, but because of the domino affect and because he was able to put the pieces into play at the beginning, that the action perpetrated by the soldiers and by the Jews were 100% predictable, they were ordained, unavoidable, predetermined, NO FREE WILL.2. Soft Determinism is best described as the belief that God plays with dominoes. God is omnipotent. God is omnipresent. God is omniscient. That means that everything that has happened, was known by God to happen, allowed by God to happen, and empowered by God to happen. Take the fall of man for instance.
- God created Lucifer
- God did this knowing that Lucifer had a prideful streak
- God did this knowing that character trait of his would lead him to the fall
- God created the heavens and the earth
- God created Adam and Eve
- God created Adam and Eve with knowledge that if they were tempted, they'd disobey him
- God also knew that Satan would tempt them
- God knew that an angel guarding the garden BEFORE Satan got there would preemptively take care of that mess
- God chose not to guard the garden
- God allowed the snake to talk to Eve
- God allowed Eve to bite the fruit
- God knew (with his omniscience)that due to the character traits he gave the originating actors (Lucifer, Adam,Eve) that those events (he could've prevented with his omnipotence and omnipresence) would never have happened.
- Therefore, the fall of man was obviously a part of God's plan
- Therefore, sin, and as a a result, evil, were planned by God.
For example, God hardened Pharaoh's heart multiple times. Also, if at anytime an unaccountable God can force you to think thoughts and do things you wouldn't otherwise do, than I gotta say that there is NO FREE WILL.3. Hard Determinism is best described as the belief that God plays with puppets. This is less prevalent than Soft Determinism, but works side by side IMO.
Then there's also Biological Determinism, and since supposedly God created us, was also planned by God. But I don't feel like going into it.
BUT WAIT! Wouldn't that mean God orchestrated evil? Doesn't that contradict the character trait of his supposed benevolence?
Yes. And wouldn't that contradiction hint to the possibility he doesn't exist?
God's just a passive observer
by Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:46 am
The New California Republic wrote:Australian rePublic wrote:Well what do you do expect? I'm one person, arguing against many at a time. Everyone's targeting my arguments more than anyone else's
It might be because of the nature of your arguments that they are easier to target. Low hanging fruit and all that...
by The New California Republic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:47 am
by Salandriagado » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:49 am
Alvecia wrote:Kazuhiraland wrote:Science simply has explained everything. An experiment was done where a man had a mini Earth in his lab. He blocked it off from everything outside the dome of which covered this mini Earth. There was dirt, which was specialised to be totally dead, and he had hills, mini mountains and everything Earth would have. Except there was absolutely NO form of life, barely even most bacterias. He added the occasional rain and storm into the experiment. It took a long time, but eventually, new forms of life began to grow. I believe humans came to be by a specific order that nature chose to act in. If that doesn't disprove that God put us on Earth, then I hope someone with far more scientific knowledge than me can.
That seems like a bit of a wild claim. Got a source?
by New Legland » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:52 am
by New Legland » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:54 am
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:(1) Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.
(2) The universe has a beginning of its existence.
Therefore:
(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.
(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence then that cause is God.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
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