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Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:20 am

Reverend Norv wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
That what people call "faith" often isn't. That what they call "belief" is more likely "belief in belief" belief in the idea that they believe and the religious are often just non-practicing atheists.


Some folks definitely are in this category. Others aren't. And still others change: I've been both in my life. Sometimes I'm both in the course of a single day.

But it's worth remembering that in Latin, for example, credo does not mean "I know," or even "I trust" - in the way that we know or trust that an apple will fall when we drop it. It is a compound of the roots cor and do. It means, literally, to give one's heart to something.

Faith isn't knowledge. It's relationship: the process of falling in love with God. And like any relationship, doubt and fear and silence come back again and again, and sometimes you wonder if there's anything really there at all, or if it's all just habit and self-delusion. And when that happens, just like in a marriage, you perform love instead of feeling it. Anyone who is prepared to be painfully honest about their own relationships with those they love will recognize that.

But that doesn't mean that the relationship is fake. The fact that sometimes you play the part doesn't mean that everything is play-acting; the fact that you still feel lonely or wracked by doubt doesn't mean you aren't giving your heart to God. Life's more complicated than that. You can play the part in the morning, and weep with joy by evening. Because the point is not whether you trust completely; the question is not whether you're as free of doubt as you pretend. The point is to keep choosing to fall in love with God, day by day, with all the sincerity you can manage in a world of confusion and pain and doubt. If you can do that, then in my book, that's a true and living faith.

Just my two cents, from experience. I'm not trying to change your mind, just to suggest another way of seeing this issue.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:27 am

Metamen wrote:
Kowani wrote:Well, considering the Sun also gives us things like skin cancer, it’s not exactly an all-loving deity...plus it doesn’t have a code of ethics, being non-living...
Oh, but the biggest problem is that it was formed after the universe, so it can’t exactly exist independently of another, even higher power.

Things like skin cancer are what I mean when the "Sun does not indiscriminately tax anyone for anything that can't can't be attributed to factors beyond its power."

I never claimed the Sun to be a Creator Deity. Simply an Important Deity will suffice, I mean in a lot of Pantheons people worshipped lesser Gods all the time, the Japanese and the Greeks had plenty of em.

Also being a Deity without a Code of Ethics can also be a blessing of a sort, without a Code of Ethics the Sun cannot judge anyone for anything. It cannot punish people, it can't bless them either. In that, it views everyone equally (unless of course again factors exist that it cannot control).

Wrong. Skin cancer is worse more likely in some places, and Vitamine D is less penetrable in others. Hence the difference in skin colours. In some places, you don't see the sun for weeks in winter, and it won't disappear for weeks in summer. In other places, you get 12 hours sunlight daily theoughout the year. The closer you get to it, the more light it provides (hence different fasting times for Ramadan, on top of Burj Kalifa). Seems pretty discriminatory to me. And don't claim that that's the fault of Earth's orbit. The sun is almost 100% responsible for Earth's orbit
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:30 am

Dogmeat wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:I never claimed to be qualified to interpret the Bible. However, I source my work from people who are. Also, no it wasn't. God was testing Job's loyalty. He wasn't using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet

Ah, so you admit it was God, and not Satan, who was responsible.

Because earlier you said it was Satan's fault, and not God's. But now you're saying that:
A) "God was testing" and,
B) You agree with Reverend Norv that Satan is just a servant of God.

That's a direct contradiction of your earlier stance.

I don't even know how Satan and God's relationship stands, but I know that the former is malevolent. He's a lot smarter than me, and I'm to stupid to understand how he works
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:30 am

Dazchan wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:I never claimed to be qualified to interpret the Bible. However, I source my work from people who are. Also, no it wasn't. God was testing Job's loyalty. He wasn't using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet


Wouldn’t an all knowing god know exactly how loyal Job was, without needing to kill his family and servants and destroy his property?

How would He, exactly?
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:33 am

Page wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:I never claimed to be qualified to interpret the Bible. However, I source my work from people who are. Also, no it wasn't. God was testing Job's loyalty. He wasn't using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet


If God was "testing Job's loyalty", all that would mean is that he was using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet against himself rather than an idiotic bet against Satan.

How does one bet against one's self?
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:41 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Page wrote:
If God was "testing Job's loyalty", all that would mean is that he was using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet against himself rather than an idiotic bet against Satan.

How does one bet against one's self?

Idiotically.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Estanglia
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Postby Estanglia » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:58 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Why? Why, for example, could such a hot singularity not just spontaneously throw out a universe? We know that things happen spontaneously for no external reason all the damned time, so why not that one?

Why did it happen? If it was just sitting there for all eternity unchanging, why did it decide to change of a sudden

We don't know. Nobody does.


Australian rePublic wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
That wasn't NCR's argument. Considering your complaints when others incorrectly interpreted your arguments, doing the same to NCR is quite hypocritical.

How exactly am I doing the same


You've misinterpreted NCR's argument, and complained when others did it to you.



'Free will' sounds like a cop-out now. If God is all-loving, Satan ruling this world shouldn't be possible. 'Free will' isn't an excuse.

Same reason why he doesn't stop a human rapist. Free will


Yup, It's a cop-out now.



And yet when they're good it's God's fault. You can't have it both ways. You can't blame humanity for their evil then attribute their good bits to God.



So it's not God who is responsible for people being good?

No, and I never claimed that He was. However, God is repsonaible for establishing a moral standard that humans are free to choose to obey


So when an atheist does a good thing it's not God's fault?



I'm pretty sure God let Satan cause Job's suffering.



And this all-powerful God was incapable of unhardening their hearts.



Except he could totally remove the evil so he doesn't have to. And he's doing a shit job at protecting us from ourselves considering all the evil.

And He does, you complain about it


He doesn't, hence the evil.

Australian rePublic wrote:
Dazchan wrote:
Wouldn’t an all knowing god know exactly how loyal Job was, without needing to kill his family and servants and destroy his property?

How would He, exactly?

By being all-knowing?
Last edited by Estanglia on Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thuzbekistan
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Postby Thuzbekistan » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:20 am

Are we just gonna forget that God gave satan permission to kill off jobs entire family to prove a point?
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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:12 am

Thuzbekistan wrote:Are we just gonna forget that God gave satan permission to kill off jobs entire family to prove a point?

Or that he drowned everyone on earth including all the toddlers and small children?
I do be tired


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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:34 am

Andsed wrote:
Thuzbekistan wrote:Are we just gonna forget that God gave satan permission to kill off jobs entire family to prove a point?

Or that he drowned everyone on earth including all the toddlers and small children?

God had to drown all those babies because he just loves humanity so much.
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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:43 am

Ifreann wrote:
Andsed wrote:Or that he drowned everyone on earth including all the toddlers and small children?

God had to drown all those babies because he just loves humanity so much.

Yeah and all those people killed in this flood were sinful including the one month old toddlers. What were these toddlers sins? Uhh being born I guess.
I do be tired


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New Legland
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Postby New Legland » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:45 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
New Legland wrote:No one here has claimed that God certainly doesn't exist. We've simply stated that since belief in a positive claim with no evidence isn't justified, the logical position is to believe in the lack of that claim, or the negative. Sure, God may exist, but until I see any verifiable evidence, I have no reason to stop believing that he doesn't exist.

That would make you an agnostic

By that token, so would you.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:53 am

Andsed wrote:
Ifreann wrote:God had to drown all those babies because he just loves humanity so much.

Yeah and all those people killed in this flood were sinful including the one month old toddlers. What were these toddlers sins? Uhh being born I guess.

Not being baptised.
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The Grims
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Postby The Grims » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:55 am

Ifreann wrote:
Andsed wrote:Yeah and all those people killed in this flood were sinful including the one month old toddlers. What were these toddlers sins? Uhh being born I guess.

Not being baptised.


Are you implying the flood was just a very big community baptism?

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:02 am

The Grims wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Not being baptised.


Are you implying the flood was just a very big community baptism?

Course not, otherwise Noah wouldn't have been told to build a boat.
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The Margaritas
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Postby The Margaritas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:07 am

The Grims wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Not being baptised.


Are you implying the flood was just a very big community baptism?


To my knoledge, it was to wipe out the humans, for they have become too evil in the eyes of god

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Christian Confederation
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Postby Christian Confederation » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:10 am

I think it's just human nature to believe in a higher power.
I personally believe in God because that's what I was taught and as far as I can tell is accurate. Because Jerusalem exists, scintists agree that the flood happened, plus year after year more and more planets are found to have no life make earth apear more and more likely to have been put here by some higher power.
So unless someone can prove me wrong I will believe in God.
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The Grims
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Postby The Grims » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:12 am

Christian Confederation wrote:I think it's just human nature to believe in a higher power.
I personally believe in God because that's what I was taught and as far as I can tell is accurate. Because Jerusalem exists, scintists agree that the flood happened, plus year after year more and more planets are found to have no life make earth apear more and more likely to have been put here by some higher power.
So unless someone can prove me wrong I will believe in God.


Uuhm, you do realise that scientists agree that the flood did NOT happen ?

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Christian Confederation
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Postby Christian Confederation » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:18 am

The Grims wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:I think it's just human nature to believe in a higher power.
I personally believe in God because that's what I was taught and as far as I can tell is accurate. Because Jerusalem exists, scintists agree that the flood happened, plus year after year more and more planets are found to have no life make earth apear more and more likely to have been put here by some higher power.
So unless someone can prove me wrong I will believe in God.


Uuhm, you do realise that scientists agree that the flood did NOT happen ?

Well more arcaticts and engineers don't agree with the official 9/11 story than those that do, that doesn't make ether side wrong.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:21 am

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Image




Christian Confederation wrote:I think it's just human nature to believe in a higher power.

Then how come lots of them don't?

Christian Confederation wrote:I personally believe in God because that's what I was taught and as far as I can tell is accurate.

Even a cursory glance at the Bible can uncover a whole host of things to raise one's eyebrow.

Christian Confederation wrote:Because Jerusalem exists,

Jerusalem's existence isn't dependent on the existence of a deity.

Christian Confederation wrote:scintists agree that the flood happened

N...no...they don't...

Christian Confederation wrote: plus year after year more and more planets are found to have no life make earth apear more and more likely to have been put here by some higher power.

You do realize that we have only really explored an absolutely minuscule fraction of the universe, right? It is a ridiculously small percentage, a decimal point with several billion zeroes after it...

Christian Confederation wrote:So unless someone can prove me wrong I will believe in God.

Russell's Teapot applies here. It isn't up to us to prove the fantastical claims that someone makes are false.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:25 am

Christian Confederation wrote:I think it's just human nature to believe in a higher power.
I personally believe in God because that's what I was taught and as far as I can tell is accurate. Because Jerusalem exists,

So do lots of other cities.
scintists agree that the flood happened,

No they don't.
plus year after year more and more planets are found to have no life make earth apear more and more likely to have been put here by some higher power.

We aren't checking other planets for life. We can't, they're all too far away. We haven't even checked all the planets in this solar system, never mind all the moons and what have you.
So unless someone can prove me wrong I will believe in God.

Good for you?
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New Legland
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Postby New Legland » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:35 am

Christian Confederation wrote:I think it's just human nature to believe in a higher power.
I personally believe in God because that's what I was taught and as far as I can tell is accurate. 1. Because Jerusalem exists, 2. scintists agree that the flood happened, 3. plus year after year more and more planets are found to have no life make earth apear more and more likely to have been put here by some higher power.
4. So unless someone can prove me wrong I will believe in God.

1. ???
2. Apologists aren't scientists.
3. We have actually discovered quite a few planets that are, as far as we can tell, similar to Earth. Hell, one of the most similar planets we've found so far orbits the closest star to our solar system. Sure, we haven't discovered life on them (it's not like we can currently), but that doesn't mean you can make the assertion that every planet we've discovered is lifeless.
4. And unless someone can prove me wrong I will believe in unicorns.

Christian Confederation wrote:
The Grims wrote:Uuhm, you do realise that scientists agree that the flood did NOT happen ?

Well more arcaticts and engineers don't agree with the official 9/11 story than those that do, that doesn't make ether side wrong.

Source? Also, you're contradicting yourself here. You just said there was a scientific consensus that the flood happened. After learning that that couldn't be further from the truth, you now say that a consensus doesn't even matter? So, if people agree with you, it supports your argument, and when people don't agree with you, it just means that they have a different opinion. Yeah... no.
Last edited by New Legland on Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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New Legland
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Postby New Legland » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:37 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:where the existence/nonexistence of God is uncertain

It's only uncertain to those who don't believe.

It is objectively uncertain.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:43 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:where the existence/nonexistence of God is uncertain

It's only uncertain to those who don't believe.

This is an incorrect, immature and bad faith assertion that's not going to convert anyone.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:08 am

Australian rePublic wrote:You mean like how He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah to wipe out the evil in that part of the world


Yeah like how he hardwired people for a predisposition to behaviors he'd consider evil and then started killing them for it.

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We're lying but we don't know we're lying, which undermines the definition of lying. That's not even taking into account that your assertion is basically impossible to prove. I thought you were an atheist?


I think on some level many people do know they're lying to themselves. They behave as though gravity is real, they don't behave as though god is.
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