Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

[El-Amin Caliphate]

where the existence/nonexistence of God is uncertain

It's only uncertain to those who don't believe.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That doesn't fit the definition of lying. Are you looking for "ignorant"?

In this case it's a small difference. I think that people establish a meaning of "belief" for gravity that's separate from the one they specifically tailor to their religion. I think if they looked seriously they'd see it and if they were humble enough admit it.

Yeah no that still doesn't make sense. I believe in Allah SWT just like I believe in gravity.

[Reverend Norv]

Yeah, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

That what people call "faith" often isn't. That what they call "belief" is more likely "belief in belief" belief in the idea that they believe and the religious are often just non-practicing atheists.

Some folks definitely are in this category. Others aren't. And still others change: I've been both in my life. Sometimes I'm both in the course of a single day.

But it's worth remembering that in Latin, for example, credo does not mean "I know," or even "I trust" - in the way that we know or trust that an apple will fall when we drop it. It is a compound of the roots cor and do. It means, literally, to give one's heart to something.

Faith isn't knowledge. It's relationship: the process of falling in love with God. And like any relationship, doubt and fear and silence come back again and again, and sometimes you wonder if there's anything really there at all, or if it's all just habit and self-delusion. And when that happens, just like in a marriage, you perform love instead of feeling it. Anyone who is prepared to be painfully honest about their own relationships with those they love will recognize that.

But that doesn't mean that the relationship is fake. The fact that sometimes you play the part doesn't mean that everything is play-acting; the fact that you still feel lonely or wracked by doubt doesn't mean you aren't giving your heart to God. Life's more complicated than that. You can play the part in the morning, and weep with joy by evening. Because the point is not whether you trust completely; the question is not whether you're as free of doubt as you pretend. The point is to keep choosing to fall in love with God, day by day, with all the sincerity you can manage in a world of confusion and pain and doubt. If you can do that, then in my book, that's a true and living faith.

Just my two cents, from experience. I'm not trying to change your mind, just to suggest another way of seeing this issue.

[Australian rePublic]

Yea, and? Are you trying to argue that God doesn't exist simply because He has a fondness for emptiness?

Yes. If you're arguing the universe was intelligently designed by a being who was principally concerned with earth and one species on it the fact that EVERYTHING ELSE exists is fucking ridiculous.

I never said that there were no aliens. Maybe other planets (e.g. Mars) exist for decoration. Maybe God doesn't place lively planets near eachother in order to avoid life from one planet hindering life from a different planet. I don't know

[Australian rePublic]

Calling a "bet" is a very poor understanding of the situation of Job

I don't trust your understanding of the Bible to any degree whatsoever. So far you have demonstrated nothing which leads me to believe you are more qualified to interpret the Bible then I am, and several thing which lead me to believe you are not.

And yeah, a "bet" is functionally what that was. Go back and read it if you don't believe me.

I never claimed to be qualified to interpret the Bible. However, I source my work from people who are. Also, no it wasn't. God was testing Job's loyalty. He wasn't using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet

[Australian rePublic]

How exactly am I doing the same

Same reason why he doesn't stop a human rapist. Free will


And yet when they're good it's God's fault. You can't have it both ways. You can't blame humanity for their evil then attribute their good bits to God.



No, and I never claimed that He was. However, God is repsonaible for establishing a moral standard that humans are free to choose to obey


And this all-powerful God was incapable of unhardening their hearts.

And He does, you complain about it

You're talking about the supposed architect of mankind. A being of omniscience, or frankly even reasonable competence would understand how people are going to handle certain situations. If I don't fence in my pool I'm responsible for kids falling in because I should have fucking known they'd do that. If I know your schedule and put a bear trap in your path that's not the product of your free will it's me being an asshole. God set all this up and God knows how we'll handle it- he's basically the jigsaw killer but also eternity.

You mean like how He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah to wipe out the evil in that part of the world

[Australian rePublic]

This isn't exactly accurate. And this clarification comes without any desire to make the Job story less problematic than it is; its power is rooted in its painful refusal to conform to our moral expectations, and I have no wish to detract from that power. But a little context is useful.

When the Book of Job was written in post-exilic Israel, nobody believed in Satan in the modern or medieval Christian sense. The figure in the book of Job who's traditionally rendered as Satan is better translated as the Adversary. This figure is not a locus of evil; rather, he's a kind of special prosecutor at large, whose distinctive feature - as his introduction suggests - is that he goes "to and fro in the earth," testing how righteous and faithful folks actually are. He does this, in fact, on God's behalf, in order to reveal His servants' true character. This explains the dialogue between the two figures, which is deferential on the Adversary's part rather than hostile as one would expect of "Satan." And it justifies the extensive legal language later in the book of Job, in which Job repeatedly longs for an Advocate: a heavenly defense attorney, essentially, to balance the Adversary's prosecution.

It also suggests another reading of the story: the Adversary, essentially, keeps going back to God to ask for authority to apply more and more extreme tests of Job's character. God, confident in Job's innocence, agrees to allow this. But this isn't necessarily a callous bet, any more than agreeing to allow a man's pretrial detention, or the subpoena of his private papers, is a bet. It's cooperating with a process that is intended to establish guilt or innocence. The metaphor of the law, not the metaphor of gambling, is most consistent both with the text and with the cultural context in which it was written.

Now, it still seems patently unjust to torture an innocent man just to prove he's innocent, and most of the Book of Job is involved with demonstrating this point. Its power as a story for grown-ups flows precisely from the fact that it's not a cozy parable of a just God and a faithful man. But calling the precipitating incident a bet misunderstands the book's structure in a subtle but important way.

To be honest, this presents me with something of a challenge. Because I agree with you 100%. There are even parts of the story I really like and find interesting. Like the subtle turn of phrase "did not sin with his lips," and all that that might imply.

But you're not the type of Christian I'm arguing with, and I don't think the type of Christian I'm arguing with appreciates the nuance of the evolution of Satan between these two periods. I could be wrong about that, and if so I am willing to accept fault here, but I'm led to believe he's only using the Medieval interpretation. And by that interpretation of Satan, this can really only be interpreted as a bet.

No. I actually agree with R. Norv on that one...

[Australian rePublic]

Yes, which was the point that I was trying to make

Not very sporting to cut off the rest, and most relevant, part of my post:

And no... not all -- not many/most, delete as appropriate -- Christians would step over the homeless man and not all atheists are seeking cures for cancer but of all the arguments in all the world, this one is one of the worst for God: the idea that man has no self-control without fear of the hereafter.

Because it carries with it conceit -- the in-born, and usually unintentional, idea -- that those who believe are somehow more moral, more compassionate, kinder than those who do not. And, in truth, there are good and compassionate people of all religious stripes and none and arseholes of all religious stripes and none.

You do not need a conception of God to behave compassionately. In fact, I would actually fear any person who fears they may be uncompassionate or cruel without a fear of hell.

I know you've seen this part, so why not answer it.

If there are good people and arseholes of all religious stripes and none -- where the existence/nonexistence of God is uncertain -- why would atheists receiving confirmation of their theory or Christians a denial make one blind bit of difference?

Should we not fear anyone who is only compassionate due to some taught fear of hell?

Well I agree with you there 100%

[Reverend Norv]

Yes, which was the point that I was trying to make

Not very sporting to cut off the rest, and most relevant, part of my post:

And no... not all -- not many/most, delete as appropriate -- Christians would step over the homeless man and not all atheists are seeking cures for cancer but of all the arguments in all the world, this one is one of the worst for God: the idea that man has no self-control without fear of the hereafter.

Because it carries with it conceit -- the in-born, and usually unintentional, idea -- that those who believe are somehow more moral, more compassionate, kinder than those who do not. And, in truth, there are good and compassionate people of all religious stripes and none and arseholes of all religious stripes and none.

You do not need a conception of God to behave compassionately. In fact, I would actually fear any person who fears they may be uncompassionate or cruel without a fear of hell.

I know you've seen this part, so why not answer it.

If there are good people and arseholes of all religious stripes and none -- where the existence/nonexistence of God is uncertain -- why would atheists receiving confirmation of their theory or Christians a denial make one blind bit of difference?

Should we not fear anyone who is only compassionate due to some taught fear of hell?

Interestingly, this was an important argument between Christians during the Reformation. Luther preached that man's inherent sinfulness is so profound that he cannot, through his own actions, earn salvation. In fact, without God's inward help, man cannot even desire to do good. A number of Catholic theologians pointed out that this conception removed any incentive for people to do the right thing: tell them that only God's grace matters, and that nothing they do is good enough, and why would they even try to keep God's commandments? With neither heaven or hell riding on their actions, with each man's ultimate fate contingent exclusively on God alone, with both reward and punishment out of the equation, wouldn't society collapse in a riot of selfishness and violence?

Luther said no. He said that even if salvation is in God's hands alone, and even if nothing we do affects it, people will still try to keep God's law. Not for hope of heaven, or fear of hell, but out of simple love for God: because when you love someone, you try to make them happy, without regard for reward or punishment. Love alone, not fear or greed, is the foundation of true morality.

All of which is to say that I basically think you are correct, and no less a theologian than Martin Luther backs you up.

[Australian rePublic]

I actually agree with Reverend Norv on a lot of things posted here...
Although, the Orthodox faith says that there are three kinds of Christians...
1. Those who obey out of fear of hell
2. Those who obey for want of reward in Heaven
3. Those who obey out of love for God

We should try to be the third kind

[Upper Pacifica]

I believe the universe has a plan for everyone. I've felt the energies of the universe, negative and positive. I've felt my chakras and seen auras. I believe in a higher power, who I refer to as God, but I've been struggling with my faith a lot lately. I think faith is very important. We all need to believe in something to keep our souls strong and keep the demons out. I went to church until 14 and, according to my alter, I'd dissociate (leave the body) during service often because I found it boring. After I stopped going I started calling myself an atheist. At this point I'd say I'm agnostic. I'm 19. I really need to look into Buddhism and Hinduism sometime soon.

[Genivaria]

Yes it literally is, just like if I buy a car and it breaks down within an hour than it's the designer's fault (as well as my own for getting a Chevy ayooooo)

Or the manufacturer's fault. Or the mechanic's fault. Or any number of persons, really

Yes. God is the shitty manufacturer.
Glad you caught up.

[Kowani]

I don't trust your understanding of the Bible to any degree whatsoever. So far you have demonstrated nothing which leads me to believe you are more qualified to interpret the Bible then I am, and several thing which lead me to believe you are not.

And yeah, a "bet" is functionally what that was. Go back and read it if you don't believe me.

I never claimed to be qualified to interpret the Bible. However, I source my work from people who are. Also, no it wasn't. God was testing Job's loyalty. He wasn't using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet

And the omniscient being needed to test his loyalty because why?

[Metamen]

I have come to the decision that the only true Higher Power is the Sun. We understand how the Sun was formed and how it affects us every day. The Sun does not indiscriminately tax anyone for anything that can't be attributed to factors that are beyond its power. We can see the Sun every day so we know it exists. If the Sun did not exist we could not have existed.

The Sun does not demand we sacrifice anything for it, neither does it make promises that it can't keep... unless you're a weirdo that made up your own canon a few hundreds of years ago.

Scientists and Atheists can't tell me that worshipping the Sun can be any worse than worshipping any other Religion.

So why not?

[Godular]

Honestly though, if we live in a truly infinite universe then nothing is truly falsifiable.... everything is based on faith.... for example, we can say here on earth that physics work in a certain way but it takes faith for us to say that physics truly works that way everywhere.... Really we have to have faith that the universe is finite just for science to hold any meaning on a universal scale

Good thing we live in a finite universe.

Just wanted to pop in and address this'n.

All the signs point to our universe being infinite in size... and growing.

[Kowani]

I have come to the decision that the only true Higher Power is the Sun. We understand how the Sun was formed and how it affects us every day. The Sun does not indiscriminately tax anyone for anything that can't be attributed to factors that are beyond its power. We can see the Sun every day so we know it exists. If the Sun did not exist we could not have existed.

The Sun does not demand we sacrifice anything for it, neither does it make promises that it can't keep... unless you're a weirdo that made up your own canon a few hundreds of years ago.

Scientists and Atheists can't tell me that worshipping the Sun can be any worse than worshipping any other Religion.

So why not?

Well, considering the Sun also gives us things like skin cancer, it’s not exactly an all-loving deity...plus it doesn’t have a code of ethics, being non-living...
Oh, but the biggest problem is that it was formed after the universe, so it can’t exactly exist independently of another, even higher power.

[Godular]

I have come to the decision that the only true Higher Power is the Sun. We understand how the Sun was formed and how it affects us every day. The Sun does not indiscriminately tax anyone for anything that can't be attributed to factors that are beyond its power. We can see the Sun every day so we know it exists. If the Sun did not exist we could not have existed.

The Sun does not demand we sacrifice anything for it, neither does it make promises that it can't keep... unless you're a weirdo that made up your own canon a few hundreds of years ago.

Scientists and Atheists can't tell me that worshipping the Sun can be any worse than worshipping any other Religion.

So why not?

Well, considering the Sun also gives us things like skin cancer, it’s not exactly an all-loving deity...plus it doesn’t have a code of ethics, being non-living...
Oh, but the biggest problem is that it was formed after the universe, so it can’t exactly exist independently of another, even higher power.

I dunno, seems to me like it has some pretty high power output. Oh, the luminosity.

[Metamen]

Well, considering the Sun also gives us things like skin cancer, it’s not exactly an all-loving deity...plus it doesn’t have a code of ethics, being non-living...
Oh, but the biggest problem is that it was formed after the universe, so it can’t exactly exist independently of another, even higher power.

Things like skin cancer are what I mean when the "Sun does not indiscriminately tax anyone for anything that can't can't be attributed to factors beyond its power."

I never claimed the Sun to be a Creator Deity. Simply an Important Deity will suffice, I mean in a lot of Pantheons people worshipped lesser Gods all the time, the Japanese and the Greeks had plenty of em.

Also being a Deity without a Code of Ethics can also be a blessing of a sort, without a Code of Ethics the Sun cannot judge anyone for anything. It cannot punish people, it can't bless them either. In that, it views everyone equally (unless of course again factors exist that it cannot control).

[Korhal IVV]

Yes. If you're arguing the universe was intelligently designed by a being who was principally concerned with earth and one species on it the fact that EVERYTHING ELSE exists is fucking ridiculous.

I never said that there were no aliens. Maybe other planets (e.g. Mars) exist for decoration. Maybe God doesn't place lively planets near eachother in order to avoid life from one planet hindering life from a different planet. I don't know

It is never said in the Bible that humans are the only intelligent species God created, so... we may not be alone at all.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

What? Are you saying that we're lying and we don't even know it?

Yes. Still.

You do realize how stupid that is?

We're lying but we don't know we're lying, which undermines the definition of lying. That's not even taking into account that your assertion is basically impossible to prove. I thought you were an atheist?

[Dogmeat]

I don't trust your understanding of the Bible to any degree whatsoever. So far you have demonstrated nothing which leads me to believe you are more qualified to interpret the Bible then I am, and several thing which lead me to believe you are not.

And yeah, a "bet" is functionally what that was. Go back and read it if you don't believe me.

I never claimed to be qualified to interpret the Bible. However, I source my work from people who are. Also, no it wasn't. God was testing Job's loyalty. He wasn't using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet

Ah, so you admit it was God, and not Satan, who was responsible.

Because earlier you said it was Satan's fault, and not God's. But now you're saying that:
A) "God was testing" and,
B) You agree with Reverend Norv that Satan is just a servant of God.

That's a direct contradiction of your earlier stance.

[Page]

I don't trust your understanding of the Bible to any degree whatsoever. So far you have demonstrated nothing which leads me to believe you are more qualified to interpret the Bible then I am, and several thing which lead me to believe you are not.

And yeah, a "bet" is functionally what that was. Go back and read it if you don't believe me.

I never claimed to be qualified to interpret the Bible. However, I source my work from people who are. Also, no it wasn't. God was testing Job's loyalty. He wasn't using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet

If God was "testing Job's loyalty", all that would mean is that he was using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet against himself rather than an idiotic bet against Satan.

[Dazchan]

I don't trust your understanding of the Bible to any degree whatsoever. So far you have demonstrated nothing which leads me to believe you are more qualified to interpret the Bible then I am, and several thing which lead me to believe you are not.

And yeah, a "bet" is functionally what that was. Go back and read it if you don't believe me.

I never claimed to be qualified to interpret the Bible. However, I source my work from people who are. Also, no it wasn't. God was testing Job's loyalty. He wasn't using Job as a pawn in an idiotic bet

Wouldn’t an all knowing god know exactly how loyal Job was, without needing to kill his family and servants and destroy his property?

[Frievolk]

In this case it's a small difference. I think that people establish a meaning of "belief" for gravity that's separate from the one they specifically tailor to their religion. I think if they looked seriously they'd see it and if they were humble enough admit it.

Yeah no that still doesn't make sense. I believe in Allah SWT just like I believe in gravity.

Sure, but that's just you accepting shit without being able to think. Gravity, while proving it is difficult as fuck, is still provable on paper. We can theorize why it happens and how it does and where and when. You can understand it. It's a matter of science. You can't understand god, and all evidence shows that if it exists, we can't prove it. Blind faith ("""belief""") in a magical skydaddy is different than minimal understanding of science. (Case in point, we still don't actually know a lot about gravity, but we can prove it exists. Proving god doesn't exist, from a philosophical or scientific basis, is easier than proving it does)

[Ruskland-Preuben]

Yeah, I believe in God.
Uh, see y’all at the 2nd Coming I guess, I hope some get left behind to say I told you so’s.
Ciao.