Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

[United Muscovite Nations]

That's my point exactly. If you came across an entire world built with legos, you wouldn't say that it arose naturally.

No, I just have to understand that great complexity can arise from simple building blocks, I don't need to assume a creator. I did hesitate on using this example because I knew the *builder* bit would be seized on rather than the principle of great complexity from simple building blocks over vast time.

Kind of like how evolution works.

I don't think that example works precisely because I don't think such a complex world or a simple building block could have occurred naturally.

[United Muscovite Nations]

If something predates the Big Bang, it predates time and space, and its existence is inconceivable to us in an ordinary sense. Such a thing would not require causation, because it could exist eternally.

But why must it have sentience? And purpose? And drive? And emotion?

It needn't, but I'm not arguing currently for the existence of the Christian God, though that is what I believe that force to be.

[Godular]

No, I just have to understand that great complexity can arise from simple building blocks, I don't need to assume a creator. I did hesitate on using this example because I knew the *builder* bit would be seized on rather than the principle of great complexity from simple building blocks over vast time.

Kind of like how evolution works.

I don't think that example works precisely because I don't think such a complex world or a simple building block could have occurred naturally.

"I don't know, ergo God"

Still a shit argument.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I personally believe the scientific hypothesis that time and space are properties of the universe, and thus didn't exist "prior" to the Big Bang. I don't know what that hypothesis is called, however.

Time is a human construct. Even so, your 'belief' still makes claims it has no right to make.

The passage of time is not a human construct, as we can observe the passage of time changing in response to other physical changes.

[Godular]

Time is a human construct. Even so, your 'belief' still makes claims it has no right to make.

The passage of time is not a human construct, as we can observe the passage of time changing in response to other physical changes.

That's not time, that's causality. Time is not an independent property.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I don't think that example works precisely because I don't think such a complex world or a simple building block could have occurred naturally.

"I don't know, ergo God"

Still a shit argument.

That is for philosophers to decide. I think the jury is still out.

[VoVoDoCo]

But why must it have sentience? And purpose? And drive? And emotion?

It needn't, but I'm not arguing currently for the existence of the Christian God, though that is what I believe that force to be.

Concentrated Singularity (that's how it was described to be, the little ball of energy before the big bang) is also pretty inconceivable. There's no reason for preference of your god over the secular.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The passage of time is not a human construct, as we can observe the passage of time changing in response to other physical changes.

That's not time, that's causality. Time is not an independent property.

Causality doesn't even make sense if time doesn't exist.

[Godular]

"I don't know, ergo God"

Still a shit argument.

That is for philosophers to decide. I think the jury is still out.

It's using your own ignorance as evidence of your claim. It's pretty shit.

[Godular]

That's not time, that's causality. Time is not an independent property.

Causality doesn't even make sense if time doesn't exist.

A lot of stuff doesn't tend to make sense. Like the fact that our universe is infinitely large and growing and still that original point. That doesn't make much sense at all, but that's what the evidence tells us.

[VoVoDoCo]

"I don't know, ergo God"

Still a shit argument.

That is for philosophers to decide. I think the jury is still out.

No it's not. The God of the Gaps is one of the silliest things arguments I've ever heard and THE silliest argument I've ever used. I moved on from that.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It needn't, but I'm not arguing currently for the existence of the Christian God, though that is what I believe that force to be.

Concentrated Singularity (that's how it was described to be, the little ball of energy before the big bang) is also pretty inconceivable. There's no reason for preference of your god over the secular.

Because there must have been something to set off the concentrated singularity, as otherwise presumably it would have remained as it was for eternity, as it would have nothing acting on it to cause it to change.

[Bombadil]

"I don't know, ergo God"

Still a shit argument.

That is for philosophers to decide. I think the jury is still out.

Then at best you can say the jury is still out rather than come back with a verdict. In the meantime there's much to be done in the exploration of the universe and discovering how and why things happen, much as we discovered how and why thunder and lightning happen and being able to discount 'god' from the cause, much as we've done with countless other things.

With the jury out there's also no need to act as if a god exists and especially not tell others how to act on the basis of that.

Hence, for me, if you have a personal idea of a god, fine.. but that's as far as it goes.

[VoVoDoCo]

Concentrated Singularity (that's how it was described to be, the little ball of energy before the big bang) is also pretty inconceivable. There's no reason for preference of your god over the secular.

Because there must have been something to set off the concentrated singularity, as otherwise presumably it would have remained as it was for eternity, as it would have nothing acting on it to cause it to change.

Where did God come from? Why did he suddenly create the universe?

[Godular]

Concentrated Singularity (that's how it was described to be, the little ball of energy before the big bang) is also pretty inconceivable. There's no reason for preference of your god over the secular.

Because there must have been something to set off the concentrated singularity, as otherwise presumably it would have remained as it was for eternity, as it would have nothing acting on it to cause it to change.

Aaaaand again we're getting into things that nobody can really make any claims about. We've got educated guesses, you've got imaginary friends.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That is for philosophers to decide. I think the jury is still out.

No it's not. The God of the Gaps is one of the silliest things arguments I've ever heard and THE silliest argument I've ever used. I moved on from that.

That argument isn't God of the Gaps because I'm not arguing from ignorance, I'm arguing that one explanation is superior to another. I'm arguing that the process by which chemistry and physics operate is one of beauty and elegance, not that I don't know how it works.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Because there must have been something to set off the concentrated singularity, as otherwise presumably it would have remained as it was for eternity, as it would have nothing acting on it to cause it to change.

Where did God come from? Why did he suddenly create the universe?

Note that I didn't say the concentrated singularity needed to be created, merely that it needed to be acted on because it lacks sentience and agency.

[Godular]

No it's not. The God of the Gaps is one of the silliest things arguments I've ever heard and THE silliest argument I've ever used. I moved on from that.

That argument isn't God of the Gaps because I'm not arguing from ignorance, I'm arguing that one explanation is superior to another. I'm arguing that the process by which chemistry and physics operate is one of beauty and elegance, not that I don't know how it works.

"Man, this dent in the ground seems formed just to fit ME! I must be one special puddle!"

[United Muscovite Nations]

Because there must have been something to set off the concentrated singularity, as otherwise presumably it would have remained as it was for eternity, as it would have nothing acting on it to cause it to change.

Aaaaand again we're getting into things that nobody can really make any claims about. We've got educated guesses, you've got imaginary friends.

You know, even if you don't agree with me, you could try being less of an ass about it.

[Godular]

Aaaaand again we're getting into things that nobody can really make any claims about. We've got educated guesses, you've got imaginary friends.

You know, even if you don't agree with me, you could try being less of an ass about it.

You keep inserting imaginary friends into physics. Get off my damn lawn.

[United Muscovite Nations]

You know, even if you don't agree with me, you could try being less of an ass about it.

You keep inserting imaginary friends into physics. Get off my damn lawn.

I don't care, you're deliberately just trying to make me angry because you don't agree with me, and I don't like it.

[Godular]

You keep inserting imaginary friends into physics. Get off my damn lawn.

I don't care, you're deliberately just trying to make me angry because you don't agree with me, and I don't like it.

Nah, I'm just not sugarcoating the fact that everything you've been saying has been bloody ludicrous. Your argument rather literally hinges on going 'boop! There's god and it somehow makes everything better!' and that just strikes me as making things more complicated than it has any particular need to be.

If that causes you issue, well... comfort zones are made to be left.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I don't care, you're deliberately just trying to make me angry because you don't agree with me, and I don't like it.

Nah, I'm just not sugarcoating the fact that everything you've been saying has been bloody ludicrous. Your argument rather literally hinges on going 'boop! There's god and it somehow makes everything better!' and that just strikes me as making things more complicated than it has any particular need to be.

If that causes you issue, well... comfort zones are made to be left.

I don't care about you not sugarcoating it, I care that you're trying to make this philosophical argument personal by angrily belittling me.

[Farnhamia]

I don't care, you're deliberately just trying to make me angry because you don't agree with me, and I don't like it.

Nah, I'm just not sugarcoating the fact that everything you've been saying has been bloody ludicrous. Your argument rather literally hinges on going 'boop! There's god and it somehow makes everything better!' and that just strikes me as making things more complicated than it has any particular need to be.

If that causes you issue, well... comfort zones are made to be left.

You've made your point. Let it go.

[Godular]

Nah, I'm just not sugarcoating the fact that everything you've been saying has been bloody ludicrous. Your argument rather literally hinges on going 'boop! There's god and it somehow makes everything better!' and that just strikes me as making things more complicated than it has any particular need to be.

If that causes you issue, well... comfort zones are made to be left.

You've made your point. Let it go.

Righto.