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Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

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Jolthig
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Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:35 pm

Segral wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Actually in a way, yes. Some sects of Hindus do it to pray to krishna.


The fact that I'm Hindu and didn't know this concerns me slightly XD. Although I suppose that comes from not being very religious in general.

But yeah, in general, NDE's are very unreliable ways to prove that God exists, and really can't be taken seriously from a logical perspective.

Well....let's say that the Beatles were the ones most famous for doing the rituals I mentioned if I'm not mistaken. :p
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:40 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:
The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
The funny thing here is that the response to your dissertation was actually quite civil. Seems to me that you were expecting all of us heathens to drop to our knees in supplication, and when we didn’t you got offended. Reflects more on you than anything else.

Maybe they've read a lot of religious tracts? No expert, but I believe that -- in a lot of evangelical tracts -- atheists who genuinely don't believe in God usually disbelieve because they've never actually heard of the concept of God/Jesus etc. And, as soon as they've been told, they're immediately converted, hallelujah and et cetera.

While -- of course -- reality doesn't support that, if someone truly believes that to be true, it must be rather disconcerting when it doesn't happen IRL.

That's actually mostly accurate. If someone doesn't believe in God, it's either because of the church or because they haven't heard of God before. That's why evangelicals (should) have missions.
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The Alma Mater
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:43 pm

Geneviev wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Maybe they've read a lot of religious tracts? No expert, but I believe that -- in a lot of evangelical tracts -- atheists who genuinely don't believe in God usually disbelieve because they've never actually heard of the concept of God/Jesus etc. And, as soon as they've been told, they're immediately converted, hallelujah and et cetera.

While -- of course -- reality doesn't support that, if someone truly believes that to be true, it must be rather disconcerting when it doesn't happen IRL.

That's actually mostly accurate. If someone doesn't believe in God, it's either because of the church or because they haven't heard of God before.


Or because they have chosen another faith.
Or because they have listened closely to the faithful,read the texts, and found them unconvincing.
Or (insert a million reasons why here. In the form of a song).
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:48 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Geneviev wrote:That's actually mostly accurate. If someone doesn't believe in God, it's either because of the church or because they haven't heard of God before.


Or because they have chosen another faith.
Or because they have listened closely to the faithful,read the texts, and found them unconvincing.
Or (insert a million reasons why here. In the form of a song).

Even then, it's because they don't really know God.
Give music to dementia patients
Bring music education back to schools
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Christian Confederation
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Founded: Dec 12, 2018
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Christian Confederation » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:50 pm

Why do I believe in God?
1. I was raised to.
2. Because it makes sense to me.
3. Science has yet to denonce gods exists, but have found much evidence he does exist.
4. the many stories of people who died than came back.
5.pepole servicing the impossible.ex: a group of people surviving 9/11 in a stair case when the rest of the tower collapsed, people servicing fire/ disaster/ war, Desmond dose serviving hacksaw ridge and saving nearly 100 men unarmed.
And finally 6. Each year scintists are finding less and less habitable planets, making it look like Earth is a special place, percisly put here by someone.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:51 pm

Geneviev wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Maybe they've read a lot of religious tracts? No expert, but I believe that -- in a lot of evangelical tracts -- atheists who genuinely don't believe in God usually disbelieve because they've never actually heard of the concept of God/Jesus etc. And, as soon as they've been told, they're immediately converted, hallelujah and et cetera.

While -- of course -- reality doesn't support that, if someone truly believes that to be true, it must be rather disconcerting when it doesn't happen IRL.

That's actually mostly accurate. If someone doesn't believe in God, it's either because of the church or because they haven't heard of God before. That's why evangelicals (should) have missions.

...You are aware that most modern atheists where one religious right? That many of the most vocal atheists where once raised in highly religious households,right?
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Kyoki Chudoku
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Kyoki Chudoku » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:52 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Geneviev wrote:That's actually mostly accurate. If someone doesn't believe in God, it's either because of the church or because they haven't heard of God before.


Or because they have chosen another faith.
Or because they have listened closely to the faithful,read the texts, and found them unconvincing.
Or (insert a million reasons why here. In the form of a song).


All the inconsistencies that fill the holy books you see
Or all the pain and suffering cause by all those deities
Or the fact that there’s so many faiths to choose from
Even though each one of them claims it’s the only truth, or
Because of the fact that there’s no evidence to use
That to resolve doesn’t require facts to be abused
So in conclusion there’s plenty of reasons
Beyond not knowing about God to have no such religion.

I’m sorry, I couldn’t help it. I had to.

In any case, the overall point is that there’s a lot of reasons to disbelieve in a religion even if you know a lot about it. In fact some may argue that such knowledge can actually add even more reasons in some cases.
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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:53 pm

Christian Confederation wrote:Why do I believe in God?
1. I was raised to.
2. Because it makes sense to me.
3. Science has yet to denonce gods exists, but have found much evidence he does exist.
4. the many stories of people who died than came back.
5.pepole servicing the impossible.ex: a group of people surviving 9/11 in a stair case when the rest of the tower collapsed, people servicing fire/ disaster/ war, Desmond dose serviving hacksaw ridge and saving nearly 100 men unarmed.
And finally 6. Each year scintists are finding less and less habitable planets, making it look like Earth is a special place, percisly put here by someone.

Babtist Christian

3. For the first part, because science cannot make any claims about the supernatural. For the second, because of the first factually untrue.
4. Are you talking about NDEs, because no they did not die.
5. Prove that any of those are impossible
6. How can scientists find fewer and fewer habitable planets if they are constantly finding new habitable planets. Also...source needed.
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Jolthig
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:53 pm

Geneviev wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Or because they have chosen another faith.
Or because they have listened closely to the faithful,read the texts, and found them unconvincing.
Or (insert a million reasons why here. In the form of a song).

Even then, it's because they don't really know God.

Well, as a Muslim, because humanity has advantaged so much to a much greater Age of Reason, and especially when we have a lot of information out their nowadays (i.e. the internet, and several books and articles), it's pretty hard for christianity to make itself a convincing faith.

There is also a lot of hypocrisy in many Christian missionaries, pastors, and priests. A lot of controversies and scandals doesn't help either. Many evangelicals especially the more fundamentalist ones have become quite arrogant. I know for a fact this is one of the reasons why I turned away from christianity, and became an atheist or non-Christian before entering Islam.

Not necessarily to criticize your faith. I respect it, but I just want to let you know why atheism is rising in response to the decline of christianity.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:54 pm

Geneviev wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Or because they have chosen another faith.
Or because they have listened closely to the faithful,read the texts, and found them unconvincing.
Or (insert a million reasons why here. In the form of a song).

Even then, it's because they don't really know God.

Are we heading into no true scotsman territory?
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:54 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Geneviev wrote:That's actually mostly accurate. If someone doesn't believe in God, it's either because of the church or because they haven't heard of God before. That's why evangelicals (should) have missions.

...You are aware that most modern atheists where one religious right? That many of the most vocal atheists where once raised in highly religious households,right?

Then it's a problem with the church.
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The Alma Mater
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:54 pm

Geneviev wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Or because they have chosen another faith.
Or because they have listened closely to the faithful,read the texts, and found them unconvincing.
Or (insert a million reasons why here. In the form of a song).

Even then, it's because they don't really know God.


Is it ? We just saw someones posts being demolished because the nonbelievers knew god BETTER than the believer. They had vastly more knowledge about the faith, its history and the historical context,as well as about nature and reality.

Perhaps it is you who does not know God as well as you think.

And perhaps you should consider dating other Gods to broaden your horizons :)
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:55 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:...You are aware that most modern atheists where one religious right? That many of the most vocal atheists where once raised in highly religious households,right?

Then it's a problem with the church.

...These where highly religious people at one point. People who absolutely believed, who where raised to believe who thought that they felt the holy spirit, and where saved by god. What more do you think missionaries would do to these people to convince them to believe?
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:55 pm

I simply find the arguments for any god unconvincing, and recognize that no solid evidence exists to support the existence of a god.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:03 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Even then, it's because they don't really know God.

Well, as a Muslim, because humanity has advantaged so much to a much greater Age of Reason, and especially when we have a lot of information out their nowadays (i.e. the internet, and several books and articles), it's pretty hard for christianity to make itself a convincing faith.

There is also a lot of hypocrisy in many Christian missionaries, pastors, and priests. A lot of controversies and scandals doesn't help either. Many evangelicals especially the more fundamentalist ones have become quite arrogant. I know for a fact this is one of the reasons why I turned away from christianity, and became an atheist or non-Christian before entering Islam.

Not necessarily to criticize your faith. I respect it, but I just want to let you know why atheism is rising in response to the decline of christianity.

The problem with the world now is that people don't want to be Christian because the church isn't perfect, but my church and some other evangelical groups are trying to change that. It shouldn't be a hypocritical religion.

Neutraligon wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Then it's a problem with the church.

...These where highly religious people at one point. People who absolutely believed, who where raised to believe who thought that they felt the holy spirit, and where saved by god. What more do you think missionaries would do to these people to convince them to believe?

The church is responsible for making sure no one wants to leave. If someone who is really saved becomes an atheist then the church made a mistake.
Give music to dementia patients
Bring music education back to schools
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"Music expresses feeling and thought, without language; it was below and before speech, and it is above and beyond all words." -Robert G. Ingersoll
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:07 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Well, as a Muslim, because humanity has advantaged so much to a much greater Age of Reason, and especially when we have a lot of information out their nowadays (i.e. the internet, and several books and articles), it's pretty hard for christianity to make itself a convincing faith.

There is also a lot of hypocrisy in many Christian missionaries, pastors, and priests. A lot of controversies and scandals doesn't help either. Many evangelicals especially the more fundamentalist ones have become quite arrogant. I know for a fact this is one of the reasons why I turned away from christianity, and became an atheist or non-Christian before entering Islam.

Not necessarily to criticize your faith. I respect it, but I just want to let you know why atheism is rising in response to the decline of christianity.

The problem with the world now is that people don't want to be Christian because the church isn't perfect, but my church and some other evangelical groups are trying to change that. It shouldn't be a hypocritical religion.

Neutraligon wrote:...These where highly religious people at one point. People who absolutely believed, who where raised to believe who thought that they felt the holy spirit, and where saved by god. What more do you think missionaries would do to these people to convince them to believe?

The church is responsible for making sure no one wants to leave. If someone who is really saved becomes an atheist then the church made a mistake.

There is another problem too though. With recent ancient biblical manuscript discoveries, some atheists will see good reason why the bible should not be accepted as a valid book. Not to mention the creation story of genesis is unconvincing to your average scientist who works in biology.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:07 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Geneviev wrote:That's actually mostly accurate. If someone doesn't believe in God, it's either because of the church or because they haven't heard of God before.


Or because they have chosen another faith.
Or because they have listened closely to the faithful,read the texts, and found them unconvincing.
Or (insert a million reasons why here. In the form of a song).

I have a (small f) faith and I find that atheists are generally far more informed about religion than the average believer, and way more informed than the average hardline believer.

Most hardline believers have been taught to repeat "the truth" ad nauseum without ever thinking about what they're saying, in my personal experience (I live in a city, so I've had a lot of people try to convert me).

I find that, the less fervently someone believes, the more chance they've thought about it. I freely admit that (religion wise) atheists are usually among the most informed people I know.

Jolthig wrote:
Geneviev wrote:The church is responsible for making sure no one wants to leave. If someone who is really saved becomes an atheist then the church made a mistake.

There is another problem too though. With recent ancient biblical manuscript discoveries, some atheists will see good reason why the bible should not be accepted as a valid book. Not to mention the creation story of genesis is unconvincing to your average scientist who works in biology.

Genesis as an account has never been convincing to me, and I only have GCSE biology. I prefer to see it as a literary attempt -- probably first recorded (as many stories were) in the oral tradition -- to explain what was then unexplainable, before scientific advances presented the Big Bang and evolution.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:09 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Well, as a Muslim, because humanity has advantaged so much to a much greater Age of Reason, and especially when we have a lot of information out their nowadays (i.e. the internet, and several books and articles), it's pretty hard for christianity to make itself a convincing faith.

There is also a lot of hypocrisy in many Christian missionaries, pastors, and priests. A lot of controversies and scandals doesn't help either. Many evangelicals especially the more fundamentalist ones have become quite arrogant. I know for a fact this is one of the reasons why I turned away from christianity, and became an atheist or non-Christian before entering Islam.

Not necessarily to criticize your faith. I respect it, but I just want to let you know why atheism is rising in response to the decline of christianity.

The problem with the world now is that people don't want to be Christian because the church isn't perfect, but my church and some other evangelical groups are trying to change that. It shouldn't be a hypocritical religion.

Neutraligon wrote:...These where highly religious people at one point. People who absolutely believed, who where raised to believe who thought that they felt the holy spirit, and where saved by god. What more do you think missionaries would do to these people to convince them to believe?

The church is responsible for making sure no one wants to leave. If someone who is really saved becomes an atheist then the church made a mistake.

Again I ask, what more do you think the church could have done. What exactly do you think missions would do to convince these people that the churches did not already try? Remember, these are people who where raised in the faith, who at one point truly believed, and yet where convinced eventually that the church had no evidence to support the claims.

Do note some of these people lost a great deal, as they are now shunned by their family for no longer believing.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:14 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Geneviev wrote:The problem with the world now is that people don't want to be Christian because the church isn't perfect, but my church and some other evangelical groups are trying to change that. It shouldn't be a hypocritical religion.


The church is responsible for making sure no one wants to leave. If someone who is really saved becomes an atheist then the church made a mistake.

There is another problem too though. With recent ancient biblical manuscript discoveries, some atheists will see good reason why the bible should not be accepted as a valid book. Not to mention the creation story of genesis is unconvincing to your average scientist who works in biology.

The Bible as it exists now is still accurate. Also, creationism is supported by science.
Give music to dementia patients
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:15 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Jolthig wrote:There is another problem too though. With recent ancient biblical manuscript discoveries, some atheists will see good reason why the bible should not be accepted as a valid book. Not to mention the creation story of genesis is unconvincing to your average scientist who works in biology.

The Bible as it exists now is still accurate. Also, creationism is supported by science.

Factually not true.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:17 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Jolthig wrote:There is another problem too though. With recent ancient biblical manuscript discoveries, some atheists will see good reason why the bible should not be accepted as a valid book. Not to mention the creation story of genesis is unconvincing to your average scientist who works in biology.

The Bible as it exists now is still accurate. Also, creationism is supported by science.

A biblical curriculum says creationism is supported by science. The most reputable scientists in the field do not.

Who am I to believe?
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:19 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Jolthig wrote:There is another problem too though. With recent ancient biblical manuscript discoveries, some atheists will see good reason why the bible should not be accepted as a valid book. Not to mention the creation story of genesis is unconvincing to your average scientist who works in biology.

The Bible as it exists now is still accurate.

Yes, the book that describes a flat earth with dragons and the like is totally accurate.
Also, creationism is supported by science.

No, buddy, it really really isn't. A blog post saying that the theory of evolution by natural selection is non-falsifiable sort of betrays its total disregard for actual science.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:21 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Geneviev wrote:The problem with the world now is that people don't want to be Christian because the church isn't perfect, but my church and some other evangelical groups are trying to change that. It shouldn't be a hypocritical religion.


The church is responsible for making sure no one wants to leave. If someone who is really saved becomes an atheist then the church made a mistake.

Again I ask, what more do you think the church could have done. What exactly do you think missions would do to convince these people that the churches did not already try? Remember, these are people who where raised in the faith, who at one point truly believed, and yet where convinced eventually that the church had no evidence to support the claims.

Do note some of these people lost a great deal, as they are now shunned by their family for no longer believing.

It's important for the church to teach the evidence that the Bible is true so a person won't leave because of a theory that isn't proven.
Give music to dementia patients
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:21 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Jolthig wrote:There is another problem too though. With recent ancient biblical manuscript discoveries, some atheists will see good reason why the bible should not be accepted as a valid book. Not to mention the creation story of genesis is unconvincing to your average scientist who works in biology.

The Bible as it exists now is still accurate. Also, creationism is supported by science.

Sure, many manuscripts are similar, but I personally possess a few that prove there are variations in the manuscripts of the Bible.

Also, although I didnt read the link, science doesnt adhere to any faith in particular. It's just simply a study of nature. If anyone is advocating for creationism as a scientist, then that's not science anymore. Theology comes in.

I even acknowledge this as an evolutionary creationist Muslim.
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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:23 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Again I ask, what more do you think the church could have done. What exactly do you think missions would do to convince these people that the churches did not already try? Remember, these are people who where raised in the faith, who at one point truly believed, and yet where convinced eventually that the church had no evidence to support the claims.

Do note some of these people lost a great deal, as they are now shunned by their family for no longer believing.

It's important for the church to teach the evidence that the Bible is true so a person won't leave because of a theory that isn't proven.

The church did teach that...the people I am talking about even believed that...until the learned outside things that convinced them that what they had been taught previously was actually not supported or factually wrong.
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