Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

[New Legland]

Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. Accept Christ and trust Him as your savior, and you'll be saved forever!

Some proofs are:

* the prophesy of Jesus Christ in the old testament

I know I'm not acknowledging your other pieces of evidence, but those require more time and effort to address and research, and I don't have the time for that. As for this one... just, no. You can't marvel at a prophecy in a text that was fulfilled in the same text. That's as illogical as saying God is real because the Bible says so and that the Bible is true because it's God's word.

* NDEs

Testimonials aren't proof and hallucinations are a thing. People of many different faiths have near-death experiences that supposedly support their beliefs. There's nothing that makes those that support yours any more significant.

[Page]

Whenever I hear theists try to argue in favour of God, or Allah or whatever, they often try to define atheists as people 'hurt by the faith' or something of that ilk. Now, in most cases, this is untrue, however I, in a loose sense, fit this description.

Even worse are the ones who say atheists are people who are angry at God. Christian movies are infamous for this, and the great, hilarious irony is that in almost every Christian movie ever made, the atheist villain isn't an atheist at all. In fact, I don't know of any Christian movie where the atheist is actually an atheist.

It's always like "My daughter died of cancer so I hate God and now I try to get people to not believe in God because he let my kid die!" Dude, that's not an atheist. Being angry at God and being an atheist are mutually exclusive.

Also, good to see another Telltale subscribe here. I have learned a lot about Jehovah's Witnesses since I discovered his channel, I honestly had no idea just how extreme they are - they make Mormons look like Unitarian Universalists.

[Salandriagado]

Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. Accept Christ and trust Him as your savior, and you'll be saved forever!

Some proofs are:

* the shroud of Turin

It's a dirty bit of cloth.

* stigmata

Trivial to fake.

* the prophesy of Jesus Christ in the old testament

Jesus, as described in the new testament, does not fulfill it.

* NDEs

Are fucking dreams.

and many more.

Got any that aren't blatant bullshit?

[Geneviev]

Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. Accept Christ and trust Him as your savior, and you'll be saved forever!

Some proofs are:

* the shroud of Turin
* stigmata
* the prophesy of Jesus Christ in the old testament
* NDEs

and many more.

Not to mention miraculous healings.

[Tharramides]

I don't hold any faith because there's no concrete proof that they exist and since it cannot be proven that there is a higher power, I'm unwilling to devote myself to it.

[Thuzbekistan]

You cant just say "in English" and act like that saved you. You're gonna have to go back to the oldest copies you have and explain how this creation myth is just bad translation.

I'm not a theologist, and am not qualified to do that. You're not either

Then don't assert it as a defense if you cannot defend it.

Sorry about not replying to the aliens question, but I was like 15 pages behind in reading this thread when I posted it, and it takes time to formulate a response. I have a life outside of this thread. So here we go. I won't reply to all of them individually, as they're all similar, so here we go:

1. Do we humans know every creature that exists on this planet? Do we know every creature that exists in the ocean? If the answer is no, then we move on to the next question...

2. If we are incapable of knowing every creature on our planet, then how are we capable of knowing what lies outside our galaxy? We don't. We can't even imagine what life in other galaxies would look like. If we saw a creature from a different galaxy, would we even recognise it as human life? If not

3. If we would be unable to determine whether or not a creature that shares a universe with us constitues as life, how are we going to determine whether or not a creature which exists outside of time and space exists. If we can't even identify a creature within time and space, how are we going to identify a creature outside of time and space? Now, if that (for lack of a better word) "creature" wishes to interact with us, and we keep an open mind, we can see its interactions. If it decides to manifest itself to us, then we can identify it as conscious. Otherwise, how would we be able to identify it. Considering that we can't even agree about whether or not a virus, an organism which lives inside us, is alive, how will be able to indentify the conscious of something which exists outside of time and space? Now all of this assumes that anythibg exists outside of time and space. Which I'll address in my next point:

4. Many here believe in the concept of a multiverse. If you don't believe in the multiverse, then fine, you can argue that nothing exists outside of time and space. If you do believe ina multiverse, then, by definition, things do exist outside of time and space. The various universes exist outside of time and space. Now, if multiple universes exist, there may be an overseer overlooking one or more of these universe. This overseer, would probably be god. Now, if multiple universes don't exist then it's still possible that sentient being/s exist outside of time and space. If we can't even prove whether or not aliens exist in time and space, how would we even beging to know how to prove the existence of something outside of time and space? The only thing we could do is examine our lives, and try to determine whether or not its interacting with us in a such a manner that said interaction is not apparent, unless we actively look for it with an open mind.

The answer to this supposed dilemma is simple: Don't believe things that don't have evidence for their existence and assume you know nothing in comparison to what you can learn and always base what you think you know on the evidence before you. If you want to answer a question, pursue the evidence for it.

Regardless, you set up a string of assumptions and questions that don't really flow together and don't necessarily lead to the ignorance you are trying to display. But whatever. I'll bite.

1. Do we humans know every creature that exists on this planet? Do we know every creature that exists in the ocean? If the answer is no, then we move on to the next question...


The number of organic lifeforms on this planet is finite, but changing. It is possible, if we develop the technologies and traverse every square inch of the Earth, to discover every species on Earth. However, due to the nature of such exploration, we can never say for certain that we have found all life on this planet. This doesn't mean anything, but let's see where you go.

2. If we are incapable of knowing every creature on our planet, then how are we capable of knowing what lies outside our galaxy? We don't. We can't even imagine what life in other galaxies would look like. If we saw a creature from a different galaxy, would we even recognise it as human life? If not

We are not incapable, it is just difficult to do so and would require a lot of work and effort and new technologies to possibly see what is below. It's possible we may never know as there are some places we cannot physically go. As for the second part of your question regarding extraterrestrial life, I think you forget that life HAS to be built up of chemicals and molecules that already exist in the universe and they HAVE to obey the laws of this universe because we are in this universe. Galaxies are mostly just like the Milky way in so much as they are built with all the same things. So, if there is life out there, we would probably recognize it as life as we have already described the behavior of things which are alive. According to this, an individual is called an organism if it displays all of the following:
• respond to their environment
• grow and change
• reproduce and have offspring
• have a complex chemistry
• maintain homeostasis
• are built of structures called cells
• pass their traits onto their offspring

So, as long as it responds to this, I'm sure we can decide whether something is alive. And, while NASA is looking at the various possible ways that life COULD develop, the only one we know of right now is carbon based. So, I imagine alien life would resemble us in the basic characteristics of life and in structure.

3. If we would be unable to determine whether or not a creature that shares a universe with us constitues as life, how are we going to determine whether or not a creature which exists outside of time and space exists. If we can't even identify a creature within time and space, how are we going to identify a creature outside of time and space? Now, if that (for lack of a better word) "creature" wishes to interact with us, and we keep an open mind, we can see its interactions. If it decides to manifest itself to us, then we can identify it as conscious. Otherwise, how would we be able to identify it. Considering that we can't even agree about whether or not a virus, an organism which lives inside us, is alive, how will be able to indentify the conscious of something which exists outside of time and space? Now all of this assumes that anythibg exists outside of time and space. Which I'll address in my next point:

1. We can determine what is alive or not. We created the definition and we classified it.
2. No one can determine that such a being outside of time and space exists because it would not offer any evidence of existing in our universe unless it acted upon the universe, which we could then measure the effect of that action on our universe and rule out all other options. Given that the Christian God among many others have acted on our universe in their books and supposedly act all around the world, its amazing that there is always a natural explanation for any supernatural claims or we find that those things which were claimed to have happened either a) don't happen at all or b) don't happen in the way they were described and have a natural explanation.
3. If this creature made itself known to us, it would HAVE to manifest itself in the physical reality in which we exist, thus it could be scientifically measured and detected.
4. A Virus is alive. An organism is alive by definition.
5. Because if something is alive, it has the characteristics seen above.

4. Many here believe in the concept of a multiverse. If you don't believe in the multiverse, then fine, you can argue that nothing exists outside of time and space. If you do believe ina multiverse, then, by definition, things do exist outside of time and space. The various universes exist outside of time and space. Now, if multiple universes exist, there may be an overseer overlooking one or more of these universe. This overseer, would probably be god. Now, if multiple universes don't exist then it's still possible that sentient being/s exist outside of time and space. If we can't even prove whether or not aliens exist in time and space, how would we even beging to know how to prove the existence of something outside of time and space? The only thing we could do is examine our lives, and try to determine whether or not its interacting with us in a such a manner that said interaction is not apparent, unless we actively look for it with an open mind.

1. These supposed universes, which we have no evidence for existing yet and just exists as a possible scenario, would have completely different laws than our own, according to what I've read. Lots of things could exist completely differently than they do here. But, until we find evidence of other Universes, then we don't know.
2. This overseer, would probably be god. How do you know this?
3. It is possible that those beings exist. It's also possible that a tea pot is orbiting Earth. But you need evidence to show that it is not a mere possibility. That's what science is all about. Explaining observations and providing evidence for explanations for those observations. Until that Tea Pot is found or until God is observed, there's no reason to believe they exist.
4. We can't "Prove" aliens exist until we observe them. However, as has been explained to you, it is highly likely that somewhere in this vast universe, aliens have evolved because life has already developed here, on Earth and we know that Earth is not unique at all. We are the only thing unique about Earth at the moment.
5. Examine our lives and decide whether WHAT is interacting with us? If you cannot observe it or define it, then you cannot decide whether it is interacting with you. At this point, you have led us down a LONG rabbit hole to where you basically say "I don't know if anything outside of time exists, but you don't either." and then you go on to make the emotional and irrational assertion that we should search our personal lives for the helping hand of a creature that exists outside of Time and Space. But let's say you think that you detected it? In what way would you know that it wasn't some force called "fate" "Karma" or an omnipotent god called "yahweh" or "Allah" or a god of the Hindus?

Once again, your whole argument is a mess of badly worded questions and incorrect assumptions.

[Jolthig]

Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. Accept Christ and trust Him as your savior, and you'll be saved forever!

Some proofs are:

* the shroud of Turin
* stigmata
* the prophesy of Jesus Christ in the old testament
* NDEs

and many more.

Eh, asides from my own disbelief in your God, christ, NDEs are a quite tricky topic because there are also NDE accounts of Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna. Etc

I've heard that the body naturally produces DMT as you go near death.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

I've heard that the body naturally produces DMT as you go near death.

If there is a god, they must be inordinately fond of DMT considering the number of places it occurs.

[Jolthig]

I've heard that the body naturally produces DMT as you go near death.

If there is a god, they must be inordinately fond of DMT considering the number of places it occurs.

Well, still, considering how NDEs of various people often contradict one another, and how science says DMT is involved, it may be at best a possible hallucination on a significant scale.

[Alvecia]

If there is a god, they must be inordinately fond of DMT considering the number of places it occurs.

Well, still, considering how NDEs of various people often contradict one another, and how science says DMT is involved, it may be at best a possible hallucination on a significant scale.

More evidence for that is that what people claim to experience is often informed by their religion/cultural upbringing.

[Jolthig]

Well, still, considering how NDEs of various people often contradict one another, and how science says DMT is involved, it may be at best a possible hallucination on a significant scale.

More evidence for that is that what people claim to experience is often informed by their religion/cultural upbringing.

Pretty much. Whatever is in their subconscious.

There's actually an account of an atheist having a NDE, and he claimed he saw nothing. Hence, NDE don't validate as proof of whatever god they're preaching of, and this is coming from a Muslim.

[Segral]

More evidence for that is that what people claim to experience is often informed by their religion/cultural upbringing.

Pretty much. Whatever is in their subconscious.

There's actually an account of an atheist having a NDE, and he claimed he saw nothing. Hence, NDE don't validate as proof of whatever god they're preaching of, and this is coming from a Muslim.

Yeah, the accounts of NDE's are too widespread and unfocused to be taken seriously. If there was widespread claims of someone seeing Muhammed, or Jesus, or Krishna, then one could take the prospect of a God seriously. But at the same time, people who have NDE's generally see what they want to see, so there's no real way to achieve this prospect.

[Jolthig]

Pretty much. Whatever is in their subconscious.

There's actually an account of an atheist having a NDE, and he claimed he saw nothing. Hence, NDE don't validate as proof of whatever god they're preaching of, and this is coming from a Muslim.

Yeah, the accounts of NDE's are too widespread and unfocused to be taken seriously. If there was widespread claims of someone seeing Muhammed, or Jesus, or Krishna, then one could take the prospect of a God seriously. But at the same time, people who have NDE's generally see what they want to see, so there's no real way to achieve this prospect.

At best, a NDE is as real as a psychedelic trip.

[Segral]

Yeah, the accounts of NDE's are too widespread and unfocused to be taken seriously. If there was widespread claims of someone seeing Muhammed, or Jesus, or Krishna, then one could take the prospect of a God seriously. But at the same time, people who have NDE's generally see what they want to see, so there's no real way to achieve this prospect.

At best, a NDE is as real as a psychedelic trip.

Lol, true. Although does that mean the act of taking drugs is religious?

[Jolthig]

At best, a NDE is as real as a psychedelic trip.

Lol, true. Although does that mean the act of taking drugs is religious?

Actually in a way, yes. Some sects of Hindus do it to pray to krishna.

[Neutraligon]

I'm not a theologist, and am not qualified to do that. You're not either

Then don't assert it as a defense if you cannot defend it.

Sorry about not replying to the aliens question, but I was like 15 pages behind in reading this thread when I posted it, and it takes time to formulate a response. I have a life outside of this thread. So here we go. I won't reply to all of them individually, as they're all similar, so here we go:

1. Do we humans know every creature that exists on this planet? Do we know every creature that exists in the ocean? If the answer is no, then we move on to the next question...

2. If we are incapable of knowing every creature on our planet, then how are we capable of knowing what lies outside our galaxy? We don't. We can't even imagine what life in other galaxies would look like. If we saw a creature from a different galaxy, would we even recognise it as human life? If not

3. If we would be unable to determine whether or not a creature that shares a universe with us constitues as life, how are we going to determine whether or not a creature which exists outside of time and space exists. If we can't even identify a creature within time and space, how are we going to identify a creature outside of time and space? Now, if that (for lack of a better word) "creature" wishes to interact with us, and we keep an open mind, we can see its interactions. If it decides to manifest itself to us, then we can identify it as conscious. Otherwise, how would we be able to identify it. Considering that we can't even agree about whether or not a virus, an organism which lives inside us, is alive, how will be able to indentify the conscious of something which exists outside of time and space? Now all of this assumes that anythibg exists outside of time and space. Which I'll address in my next point:

4. Many here believe in the concept of a multiverse. If you don't believe in the multiverse, then fine, you can argue that nothing exists outside of time and space. If you do believe ina multiverse, then, by definition, things do exist outside of time and space. The various universes exist outside of time and space. Now, if multiple universes exist, there may be an overseer overlooking one or more of these universe. This overseer, would probably be god. Now, if multiple universes don't exist then it's still possible that sentient being/s exist outside of time and space. If we can't even prove whether or not aliens exist in time and space, how would we even beging to know how to prove the existence of something outside of time and space? The only thing we could do is examine our lives, and try to determine whether or not its interacting with us in a such a manner that said interaction is not apparent, unless we actively look for it with an open mind.

The answer to this supposed dilemma is simple: Don't believe things that don't have evidence for their existence and assume you know nothing in comparison to what you can learn and always base what you think you know on the evidence before you. If you want to answer a question, pursue the evidence for it.

Regardless, you set up a string of assumptions and questions that don't really flow together and don't necessarily lead to the ignorance you are trying to display. But whatever. I'll bite.

1. Do we humans know every creature that exists on this planet? Do we know every creature that exists in the ocean? If the answer is no, then we move on to the next question...


The number of organic lifeforms on this planet is finite, but changing. It is possible, if we develop the technologies and traverse every square inch of the Earth, to discover every species on Earth. However, due to the nature of such exploration, we can never say for certain that we have found all life on this planet. This doesn't mean anything, but let's see where you go.

2. If we are incapable of knowing every creature on our planet, then how are we capable of knowing what lies outside our galaxy? We don't. We can't even imagine what life in other galaxies would look like. If we saw a creature from a different galaxy, would we even recognise it as human life? If not

We are not incapable, it is just difficult to do so and would require a lot of work and effort and new technologies to possibly see what is below. It's possible we may never know as there are some places we cannot physically go. As for the second part of your question regarding extraterrestrial life, I think you forget that life HAS to be built up of chemicals and molecules that already exist in the universe and they HAVE to obey the laws of this universe because we are in this universe. Galaxies are mostly just like the Milky way in so much as they are built with all the same things. So, if there is life out there, we would probably recognize it as life as we have already described the behavior of things which are alive. According to this, an individual is called an organism if it displays all of the following:
• respond to their environment
• grow and change
• reproduce and have offspring
• have a complex chemistry
• maintain homeostasis
• are built of structures called cells
• pass their traits onto their offspring

So, as long as it responds to this, I'm sure we can decide whether something is alive. And, while NASA is looking at the various possible ways that life COULD develop, the only one we know of right now is carbon based. So, I imagine alien life would resemble us in the basic characteristics of life and in structure.

3. If we would be unable to determine whether or not a creature that shares a universe with us constitues as life, how are we going to determine whether or not a creature which exists outside of time and space exists. If we can't even identify a creature within time and space, how are we going to identify a creature outside of time and space? Now, if that (for lack of a better word) "creature" wishes to interact with us, and we keep an open mind, we can see its interactions. If it decides to manifest itself to us, then we can identify it as conscious. Otherwise, how would we be able to identify it. Considering that we can't even agree about whether or not a virus, an organism which lives inside us, is alive, how will be able to indentify the conscious of something which exists outside of time and space? Now all of this assumes that anythibg exists outside of time and space. Which I'll address in my next point:

1. We can determine what is alive or not. We created the definition and we classified it.
2. No one can determine that such a being outside of time and space exists because it would not offer any evidence of existing in our universe unless it acted upon the universe, which we could then measure the effect of that action on our universe and rule out all other options. Given that the Christian God among many others have acted on our universe in their books and supposedly act all around the world, its amazing that there is always a natural explanation for any supernatural claims or we find that those things which were claimed to have happened either a) don't happen at all or b) don't happen in the way they were described and have a natural explanation.
3. If this creature made itself known to us, it would HAVE to manifest itself in the physical reality in which we exist, thus it could be scientifically measured and detected.
4. A Virus is alive. An organism is alive by definition.
5. Because if something is alive, it has the characteristics seen above.

4. Many here believe in the concept of a multiverse. If you don't believe in the multiverse, then fine, you can argue that nothing exists outside of time and space. If you do believe ina multiverse, then, by definition, things do exist outside of time and space. The various universes exist outside of time and space. Now, if multiple universes exist, there may be an overseer overlooking one or more of these universe. This overseer, would probably be god. Now, if multiple universes don't exist then it's still possible that sentient being/s exist outside of time and space. If we can't even prove whether or not aliens exist in time and space, how would we even beging to know how to prove the existence of something outside of time and space? The only thing we could do is examine our lives, and try to determine whether or not its interacting with us in a such a manner that said interaction is not apparent, unless we actively look for it with an open mind.

1. These supposed universes, which we have no evidence for existing yet and just exists as a possible scenario, would have completely different laws than our own, according to what I've read. Lots of things could exist completely differently than they do here. But, until we find evidence of other Universes, then we don't know.
2. This overseer, would probably be god. How do you know this?
3. It is possible that those beings exist. It's also possible that a tea pot is orbiting Earth. But you need evidence to show that it is not a mere possibility. That's what science is all about. Explaining observations and providing evidence for explanations for those observations. Until that Tea Pot is found or until God is observed, there's no reason to believe they exist.
4. We can't "Prove" aliens exist until we observe them. However, as has been explained to you, it is highly likely that somewhere in this vast universe, aliens have evolved because life has already developed here, on Earth and we know that Earth is not unique at all. We are the only thing unique about Earth at the moment.
5. Examine our lives and decide whether WHAT is interacting with us? If you cannot observe it or define it, then you cannot decide whether it is interacting with you. At this point, you have led us down a LONG rabbit hole to where you basically say "I don't know if anything outside of time exists, but you don't either." and then you go on to make the emotional and irrational assertion that we should search our personal lives for the helping hand of a creature that exists outside of Time and Space. But let's say you think that you detected it? In what way would you know that it wasn't some force called "fate" "Karma" or an omnipotent god called "yahweh" or "Allah" or a god of the Hindus?

Once again, your whole argument is a mess of badly worded questions and incorrect assumptions.

Just a quick correction but it is debated if viruses are alive because they do not clearly fulfill all the requirements to be alive.

[Segral]

Lol, true. Although does that mean the act of taking drugs is religious?

Actually in a way, yes. Some sects of Hindus do it to pray to krishna.

The fact that I'm Hindu and didn't know this concerns me slightly XD. Although I suppose that comes from not being very religious in general.

But yeah, in general, NDE's are very unreliable ways to prove that God exists, and really can't be taken seriously from a logical perspective.

[Cekoviu]

Just a quick correction but it is debated if viruses are alive because they do not clearly fulfill all the requirements to be alive.

It really shouldn't be even debated. It's not a borderline case, they only fulfill half to 4/7 of the requirements depending on how you count.

[Thuzbekistan]

Just a quick correction but it is debated if viruses are alive because they do not clearly fulfill all the requirements to be alive.

Ah I didn't know that

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

I deleted my well thought out reply and will no longer partake in any religious discussions here.

I thought this was a forum where people would be polite and non judgmental but instead people rip my writing to shreds and defile the HOLY TRUTH.

So GOOD DAY TO YOU ALL.

The funny thing here is that the response to your dissertation was actually quite civil. Seems to me that you were expecting all of us heathens to drop to our knees in supplication, and when we didn’t you got offended. Reflects more on you than anything else.

[Ausinia]

Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. Accept Christ and trust Him as your savior, and you'll be saved forever!

Some proofs are:

* the shroud of Turin
* stigmata
* the prophesy of Jesus Christ in the old testament
* NDEs

and many more.

I thought this thread was a debate about wether god exists, and where you sit, we aren’t aren’t looking for a new religion.

[Menassa]

[...]
* the prophesy of Jesus Christ in the old testament
[...]

Nope, Chuck Testa.

[Kowani]

[...]
* the prophesy of Jesus Christ in the old testament
[...]

Nope, Chuck Testa.

Stealing this for future usagez.

[Thermodolia]

Mods, I request that this thread be locked. It is unhealthy flame bait.

Look dude you can’t request shit to get locked. Doesn’t happen that way

[The Free Joy State]

I deleted my well thought out reply and will no longer partake in any religious discussions here.

I thought this was a forum where people would be polite and non judgmental but instead people rip my writing to shreds and defile the HOLY TRUTH.

So GOOD DAY TO YOU ALL.

The funny thing here is that the response to your dissertation was actually quite civil. Seems to me that you were expecting all of us heathens to drop to our knees in supplication, and when we didn’t you got offended. Reflects more on you than anything else.

Maybe they've read a lot of religious tracts? No expert, but I believe that -- in a lot of evangelical tracts -- atheists who genuinely don't believe in God usually disbelieve because they've never actually heard of the concept of God/Jesus etc. And, as soon as they've been told, they're immediately converted, hallelujah and et cetera.

While -- of course -- reality doesn't support that, if someone truly believes that to be true, it must be rather disconcerting when it doesn't happen IRL.