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Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

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The blAAtschApen
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Founded: Antiquity
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Postby The blAAtschApen » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:58 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Kowani wrote:Hitler and Ghandi are neighbors in heaven. This is just...


They were both vegetarians and loved animals. So plenty common ground.


Both were also not very fond of the British.
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Estanglia
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Postby Estanglia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:58 am

Australian rePublic wrote:All I read in this thread is "cancer, cancer, cancer". Let me tell you a story. I almost died when I was 5 years old (not from cancer, but death is death). I don't even know how I survived this long. In addition to that, and seperate to that, I have a genetic disease called Thallasemia Minor, I have aspberger's syndrome. All of these don't mean that God isn't real. All of these don't mean that God is evil. Just because you don't understand why God does something, it doesn't mean that God is evil. I learnt that the hard way. (And no, before you strawman me, I am NOT saying that cancer is good. We should try to fight cancer as hard as possible, as we are doing, which is an excellent thing). Atheists keep talking about how morality is subjective, and indeed, 200 years ago, it was perfectly considered perfectly acceptable to think that one race was superior to other races, yet we changed our perspective of that, why? (Well, in all honesty, because Hitler took that concept way too far, causing the rest of us to see how idiotic it was.) Up until 200 years ago, slavery was perfectly acceptable, but then we abandoned it, why, I don't know. Now as for cancer, cancer is an evil and horrible thing, I rhink so, you think so and God thinks so. So why does God allow such a horrid thing to exist? I don't know. What I do know however, is that we humans cannot agree on what is good and evil, because we don't have access to the bigger picture, God who has access to the bigger picture, is capable of knowing how to run the universe, and has remained fairly consistant with His morality. Why does God allow cancer? Does He enjoy watch people suffer? No, of coarse not, in fact, it's the opposite, God suffers with them. So why does He allow cancer? I don't know. All I know ia that God is more knowlegable than me. Trying to argue that God is evil for the simple reason that you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your mechanic is evil because you don't understand why He changed the motor oil. Trying to argue that God is evil because you don't understand His will, is like trying to argue that your hotel receptionist is evil, because you don't understand why she's charging you for room service, etc.


How do you know this and not any of the other things you claim to not know?

United States of Americanas wrote:I believe in God Jesus and The Holy Spirit but not in any way that traditional religion portrays them.

Traditional religion says that the gays will be condemned and those who masturbate or view porn or “sin” will be condemned.

JESUS DIED ON A FUCKING CROSS TO SET US FREE FROM THE LAWS OF SIN AND DEATH. HE HUNG THERE FOR HORRIBLE AGONIZING DEATH TO SET US FREE BUT INSTEAD THE CHURCHES CONTINUE TO PUSH THE HELL AND BRIMSTONE BULLSHIT.

Therefore yes, I believe in God but I have created my own religion. The core beliefs are as follows.

1. God is universal love existing everywhere and nowhere at all times. He is lawful and lawless at the same time and he will approach his followers and attempt to reach people to become connected with them by whatever avenue the person is comfortable receiving God.

2. God set a rainbow in the sky after the great flood and decreed that he shall never strike the earth or its people’s. In addition is one and only son died an agonizing death to set us free from the tyranny of religious doctrinal laws of sin and death. Therefore the vast majority of The Bible and most holy texts are null and void.

3. ALL ARE AUTOMATICALLY ENTITLED TO LIFE IN THE HEAVENS. PERIOD. (Some May need to undergo purification processes before entry. Nonetheless ALL SHALL ENTER THE GOLDEN GATES!)


1) Prove it

2) Prove it

3) Even Hitler?
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:08 am

Estanglia wrote:
3) Even Hitler?

Especially Hitler.
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Australian rePublic
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Capitalizt

Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:18 am

Ausinia wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Yea, but by your own argument, you can't prove that aliens, and by your own argument lack of evidence is evodence of absense. If that logic doesn't apply to aleins which live in time and space, how does that logic apply to God which exists outside of time and space

Interesting that you ask a question, get at least 5 answers and reply to the one you see fallacies, but hey, I’m not here to judge.

It takes to formulate a response, and I have a life outside of this thread
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United States of Americanas
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Postby United States of Americanas » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:21 am

I deleted my well thought out reply and will no longer partake in any religious discussions here.

I thought this was a forum where people would be polite and non judgmental but instead people rip my writing to shreds and defile the HOLY TRUTH.

So GOOD DAY TO YOU ALL.
Last edited by United States of Americanas on Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Australian rePublic
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Capitalizt

Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:22 am

Thuzbekistan wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:In English


In English


My point is that we shouldn't get too caught up o n terminology

You cant just say "in English" and act like that saved you. You're gonna have to go back to the oldest copies you have and explain how this creation myth is just bad translation.

I'm not a theologist, and am not qualified to do that. You're not either
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:30 am

United States of Americanas wrote:I deleted my well thought out reply and will no longer partake in any religious discussions here.

I thought this was a forum where people would be polite and non judgmental but instead people rip my writing to shreds and defile the HOLY TRUTH.

So GOOD DAY TO YOU ALL.

Sorry to break it to you but it's the internet. The worst hive of scum and villainy you'll ever find.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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The Alma Mater
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:32 am

Purpelia wrote:
United States of Americanas wrote:I deleted my well thought out reply and will no longer partake in any religious discussions here.

I thought this was a forum where people would be polite and non judgmental but instead people rip my writing to shreds and defile the HOLY TRUTH.

So GOOD DAY TO YOU ALL.

Sorry to break it to you but it's the internet. The worst hive of scum and villainy you'll ever find.


Never been to the Vatican I take it :P ?
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:33 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Sorry to break it to you but it's the internet. The worst hive of scum and villainy you'll ever find.


Never been to the Vatican I take it :P ?

You merely lack the imagination to think off what those guys might get up to online.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Adavoya
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Founded: Jan 19, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Adavoya » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:34 am

I believe in God unequivocally.

I would be lying if I said that I have not thought deeply about faith and God's existence. Many times I found myself questioning God and his morality. Despite being born into a religious family, I do not ascribe to any particular religion. However, I find that my faith that there is a god who knows and understands the inner workings of the universe better than any possible human or human society is absolute. I have no other greater ontological arguments other than faith, and for me, that is enough.

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United States of Americanas
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Postby United States of Americanas » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:35 am

Mods, I request that this thread be locked. It is unhealthy flame bait.

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The Shrailleeni Empire
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Postby The Shrailleeni Empire » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:37 am

Don't believe in God because there is no proof of God. It's quite a simple metric. Even more damning (pun intended), whenever people attempt to prove the existence of God they resort to the same tired metaphors. I've spoken to many passionate people over the course of my life who were convinced in their belief in their own version of divinity. I've prayed in churches of many denominations, mosques and masjids, and Hindu temples. And every single one of them was absolutely convinced that their particular strain of belief was not only real, but the only genuine faith. And all of them offered to me exactly the same level of proof, each contradicting the next.

Everyone is an atheist at some level. Orthodox Christians are hardly about to adopt the Methodist creed, let alone start believing the Vedas or accepting Muhammad as the Seal of the Prophets. I don't believe in God because no one else believes in any other God, and yet everyone is equally convinced that they are right.

I would encourage everyone, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, to genuinely participate in religious communities outside of their experience. It promotes a certain perspective on spiritual wellness.
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Purpelia
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:46 am

United States of Americanas wrote:Mods, I request that this thread be locked. It is unhealthy flame bait.

It's nice to see you are willing to take criticism.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Australian rePublic
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Capitalizt

Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:49 am

Sorry about not replying to the aliens question, but I was like 15 pages behind in reading this thread when I posted it, and it takes time to formulate a response. I have a life outside of this thread. So here we go. I won't reply to all of them individually, as they're all similar, so here we go:

1. Do we humans know every creature that exists on this planet? Do we know every creature that exists in the ocean? If the answer is no, then we move on to the next question...

2. If we are incapable of knowing every creature on our planet, then how are we capable of knowing what lies outside our galaxy? We don't. We can't even imagine what life in other galaxies would look like. If we saw a creature from a different galaxy, would we even recognise it as human life? If not

3. If we would be unable to determine whether or not a creature that shares a universe with us constitues as life, how are we going to determine whether or not a creature which exists outside of time and space exists. If we can't even identify a creature within time and space, how are we going to identify a creature outside of time and space? Now, if that (for lack of a better word) "creature" wishes to interact with us, and we keep an open mind, we can see its interactions. If it decides to manifest itself to us, then we can identify it as conscious. Otherwise, how would we be able to identify it. Considering that we can't even agree about whether or not a virus, an organism which lives inside us, is alive, how will be able to indentify the conscious of something which exists outside of time and space? Now all of this assumes that anythibg exists outside of time and space. Which I'll address in my next point:

4. Many here believe in the concept of a multiverse. If you don't believe in the multiverse, then fine, you can argue that nothing exists outside of time and space. If you do believe ina multiverse, then, by definition, things do exist outside of time and space. The various universes exist outside of time and space. Now, if multiple universes exist, there may be an overseer overlooking one or more of these universe. This overseer, would probably be god. Now, if multiple universes don't exist then it's still possible that sentient being/s exist outside of time and space. If we can't even prove whether or not aliens exist in time and space, how would we even beging to know how to prove the existence of something outside of time and space? The only thing we could do is examine our lives, and try to determine whether or not its interacting with us in a such a manner that said interaction is not apparent, unless we actively look for it with an open mind.
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Hrythingland
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Postby Hrythingland » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:09 am

United States of Americanas wrote:I deleted my well thought out reply and will no longer partake in any religious discussions here.

I thought this was a forum where people would be polite and non judgmental but instead people rip my writing to shreds and defile the HOLY TRUTH.

So GOOD DAY TO YOU ALL.

That is what debating is about; having your 'presumed' well thought out responses and arguments ripped to shreds by people with better functioning cerebreal facilities than you. Happens to me, it'll happen to you and will most likely happen to them as well. If you do not like that then go away and grow up, you infantile anti-intellectual.
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:48 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Nobody is discussing terminology here. We're discussing if torturing children to death is an evil act.

*looks at thread topic*

Funny! I could've sworn it was "Why Do/Don't You Believe in God", not "On the Torture of Children". I don't share Aussie's beliefs, but the wideness of the topic would allow for a variety of acceptable branches, I'd have thought.


He's accusing us of getting too caught up on terminology. This is a lie.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:51 am

Hrythingland wrote:If you do not like that then go away and grow up, you infantile anti-intellectual.

You just aren't getting the message, are you? You lost a nation a few weeks ago, and now you're jumping right back into rulebreaking. Not once, but twice. We're going to skip the one day ban and go straight to a longer ban, and see if that helps.

*** Three day ban for flaming. ***

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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:51 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Thuzbekistan wrote:You cant just say "in English" and act like that saved you. You're gonna have to go back to the oldest copies you have and explain how this creation myth is just bad translation.

I'm not a theologist, and am not qualified to do that. You're not either


I can read. And I have a reasonable understanding of cosmology. That makes me entirely qualified to criticise shitty cosmological claims.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:01 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Sorry about not replying to the aliens question, but I was like 15 pages behind in reading this thread when I posted it, and it takes time to formulate a response. I have a life outside of this thread. So here we go. I won't reply to all of them individually, as they're all similar, so here we go:

1. Do we humans know every creature that exists on this planet? Do we know every creature that exists in the ocean? If the answer is no, then we move on to the next question...


No. We do, however, know some bounds that all of them lie within.

2. If we are incapable of knowing every creature on our planet, then how are we capable of knowing what lies outside our galaxy? We don't. We can't even imagine what life in other galaxies would look like. If we saw a creature from a different galaxy, would we even recognise it as human life? If not


We don't. Not that it's relevant.

3. If we would be unable to determine whether or not a creature that shares a universe with us constitues as life, how are we going to determine whether or not a creature which exists outside of time and space exists.


Because "outside of space and time" is literally the same thing as "not existing". We understand fundamental physics well enough to say that. This has no connection with not having finished what amounts to a cataloguing programme within an already well-understood system.

If we can't even identify a creature within time and space, how are we going to identify a creature outside of time and space?


We can identify creatures within time and space. Also, this was valid, what you just did is entirely concede the argument. You're the one claiming to have identified a creature outside of time and space, whatever the fuck that means.

Now, if that (for lack of a better word) "creature" wishes to interact with us, and we keep an open mind, we can see its interactions.


It clearly has never done this (due to, you know, not existing), because we haven't.

If it decides to manifest itself to us, then we can identify it as conscious.


It clearly has never done this (due to, you know, not existing), because we haven't.

Otherwise, how would we be able to identify it.


We can't, because it doesn't exist.

Considering that we can't even agree about whether or not a virus, an organism which lives inside us, is alive,


There is no disagreement on what a virus is.

how will be able to indentify the conscious of something which exists outside of time and space?


If it interacts with the universe at all, we can identify its existence. Consciousness is a fucking irrelevance, given that (a) you can't even prove to me that you are conscious, and (b) things that don't exist can't be conscious.

Now all of this assumes that anythibg exists outside of time and space. Which I'll address in my next point:

4. Many here believe in the concept of a multiverse.


They fundamentally misunderstand quantum mechanics.

If you don't believe in the multiverse, then fine, you can argue that nothing exists outside of time and space.


Correctly.

If you do believe ina multiverse, then, by definition, things do exist outside of time and space. The various universes exist outside of time and space.


No. This is not how the many-worlds interpretation works. If we take that interpretation, then there are many worlds, all of them inside time and space.

Now, if multiple universes exist, there may be an overseer overlooking one or more of these universe.


Again, no. Even if all of the above wasn't bullshit, this still would be. There's still no "outside of the universe" in the many worlds interpretation.

This overseer, would probably be god.


Even if the above was true, this still doesn't follow.

Now, if multiple universes don't exist then it's still possible that sentient being/s exist outside of time and space.


No, it isn't.

If we can't even prove whether or not aliens exist in time and space, how would we even beging to know how to prove the existence of something outside of time and space?


We understand fundamental physics. Again, you are conflating cataloguing problems with actual building of understanding.

The only thing we could do is examine our lives, and try to determine whether or not its interacting with us in a such a manner that said interaction is not apparent, unless we actively look for it with an open mind.


Again, bullshit.


Notice, also, that you have still utterly failed to give any sort of an argument in favour of the existence of a deity: you've just given some vague (and entirely incorrect) arguments that it isn't impossible. Even if we accept all of your (entirely wrong) arguments, we're still left to conclude that there's no evidence for this claim, so it's probably wrong.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:12 am

United States of Americanas wrote:I deleted my well thought out reply and will no longer partake in any religious discussions here.

I thought this was a forum where people would be polite and non judgmental but instead people rip my writing to shreds and defile the HOLY TRUTH.

So GOOD DAY TO YOU ALL.

>Wants to debate, but only if it doesn't question their opinion.

The fuck? :lol2:
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Heraswed
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Postby Heraswed » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:16 am

Whenever I hear theists try to argue in favour of God, or Allah or whatever, they often try to define atheists as people 'hurt by the faith' or something of that ilk. Now, in most cases, this is untrue, however I, in a loose sense, fit this description.

My Grandfather was a devout Methodist Christian, 30 years in the police, distinguished service medal, a few years in the Household Cavalry. When I was 7/8 he died of Bowel cancer. I then, (as a child) watched what remained of his belongings be plundered by my step-grandmother's children all of whom were Christians.

Understand that I was not raised in a devout family, I was christened Methodist but I never worshipped myself. But for what little faith I had, this was a crisis of faith. I moved very much for those next few years into the agnostic atheist camp. And would stay there for a long time until recently.

I had (by this time) moved into the camp of a gnostic atheist and began watching you tube channels like GMS, Cosmic Skeptic and Telltale. They very much cemented me to my position at the time, but having found the channel of Mr. Atheist, I am now firmly locked into the principles of an Anti-Theist.
You can try to prove to me God exists, (good luck with that) but even if i believed he existed I would not bow to him, the evil creature that he is.
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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:25 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Kowani wrote:Hitler and Ghandi are neighbors in heaven. This is just...


They were both vegetarians and loved animals. So plenty common ground.

And they were both racist against black people. *nods*
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New Legland
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Postby New Legland » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:38 am

United States of Americanas wrote:Mods, I request that this thread be locked. It is unhealthy flame bait.

Criticism isn't flame bait. Just because you believe something doesn't mean that it is immune to criticism.
don't expect much of me

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Telcz
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 22
Founded: Dec 18, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Telcz » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:48 am

Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. Accept Christ and trust Him as your savior, and you'll be saved forever!

Some proofs are:

* the shroud of Turin
* stigmata
* the prophesy of Jesus Christ in the old testament
* NDEs

and many more.

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New Legland
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 165
Founded: Apr 21, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Legland » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:59 am

Australian rePublic wrote:1. Do we humans know every creature that exists on this planet? Do we know every creature that exists in the ocean? If the answer is no, then we move on to the next question...

We don't, but we know that we know so little that there is essentially a guarantee that there is something else we haven't found. This is even more reasonable when you consider that we discover about 18,000 species each year.
Australian rePublic wrote:2. If we are incapable of knowing every creature on our planet, then how are we capable of knowing what lies outside our galaxy? We don't. We can't even imagine what life in other galaxies would look like. If we saw a creature from a different galaxy, would we even recognise it as human life? If not

No one claims to know what life looks like outside of Earth, or even on Earth, just that it exists. And yes, I know that belief in more life on Earth and life elsewhere in the universe require different justifications, but the justification for the latter is quite simple. We already have concrete evidence that life exists in the universe—just look in the mirror—so it only makes sense given the vastness of the universe that it must exist elsewhere. The same cannot be said for any god.
Australian rePublic wrote:3. If we would be unable to determine whether or not a creature that shares a universe with us constitues as life, how are we going to determine whether or not a creature which exists outside of time and space exists. If we can't even identify a creature within time and space, how are we going to identify a creature outside of time and space? Now, if that (for lack of a better word) "creature" wishes to interact with us, and we keep an open mind, we can see its interactions. If it decides to manifest itself to us, then we can identify it as conscious. Otherwise, how would we be able to identify it. Considering that we can't even agree about whether or not a virus, an organism which lives inside us, is alive, how will be able to indentify the conscious of something which exists outside of time and space? Now all of this assumes that anythibg exists outside of time and space. Which I'll address in my next point:

Your initial argument wasn't about identifying life, it was about believing in life without any evidence. This might be relevant when we actually encounter alien life, but even might is stretching it.
Australian rePublic wrote:4. Many here believe in the concept of a multiverse. If you don't believe in the multiverse, then fine, you can argue that nothing exists outside of time and space. If you do believe ina multiverse, then, by definition, things do exist outside of time and space. The various universes exist outside of time and space. Now, if multiple universes exist, there may be an overseer overlooking one or more of these universe. This overseer, would probably be god. Now, if multiple universes don't exist then it's still possible that sentient being/s exist outside of time and space. If we can't even prove whether or not aliens exist in time and space, how would we even beging to know how to prove the existence of something outside of time and space? The only thing we could do is examine our lives, and try to determine whether or not its interacting with us in a such a manner that said interaction is not apparent, unless we actively look for it with an open mind.

Again, as many have pointed out, belief in aliens without evidence and belief in a god without evidence are two completely different things. You can't say that one is justified because the other is or that one isn't justified because the other is. Since I don't want to type an explanations again, I'll just quote myself here:
New Legland wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Why?

For one, the main justification for belief in aliens is simply the vastness of the universe and that probability suggests that as it has occurred once, there is a very high chance it has occurred elsewhere. Meanwhile, justifications that I've seen for belief in a god similar to this are based off of the appearance of the universe to be designed and the probability that it was pure chance. The differences lie when you consider that belief in aliens is based off of the already known existence of life, but (this justification, anyway) belief in a god is based off of conjecture with a god as an explanation. There are a few arguments against the supposed design of the universe, but I'll leave it at that. Also, you don't see many people claiming that they believe in a god, but that they believe in their god. While the justification shown above could be considered evidence for a god, it says nothing for specific gods. And I recognize that many people have had experiences with their god, but testimonials don't do much for actual evidence and many people of different faiths have had these experiences. Meanwhile, the vast majority of people don't believe in any specific kind of alien, just the fact that life of some form exists out there.
don't expect much of me

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