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Why do/don't you believe in a higher power? (Any HP)

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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:59 am

Page wrote:
Ausinia wrote:Definitely. From my experience, it also seems that those types of people who are the most hypocritical about their religion. The same people think it’s acceptable to say ‘no abortion, those people are terrible and are killers’ and then say ‘we follow the bible’ and ‘we accept all’. I guess logic and hypocrisy are the things that find me without a religion or deity to follow. I accept and follow my own views, I’m not saying yours are wrong, I believe that mine are right


Funny how you mentioned abortion, cause the Bible is pro-abortion.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

If a man suspects his wife is pregnant by another man, he shall bring his wife to a priest. The priest will have her drink "bitter water" and put a curse on her. If she has been faithful and is pregnant by her husband, her baby will be fine, but if the baby is someone else's, she'll miscarry. God will strike down an innocent fetus for the sins of its mother. The Bible is very clear here that a fetus conceived by adultery should die.

That's long been one of my go-to pro-choice arguments. That and -- while I'm not Catholic -- the Catholic saints who performed abortions.

EDIT: Not that this is the thread for that, of course.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lorkhan
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Postby Lorkhan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:47 am

I believe in God, but I'm not really sure how to explain it, since I think any attempt to define divinity or humanize it generally falls short. Of course, wanton as we are to do such things that go against our own logic, I've played around with Gnosticism and flirt with Asatru as a means to connect myself to ancestral cultural heritage.

Spirituality can be very empowering, especially in these vulnerable times, but religious devotion is still quite a bit tacky for my tastes. I'm hoping on the advent of a new religion in the next century or two that disposes of Christianity's rigid structure but assumes its universalism. I'm sure even mentioning such things makes me out to be an edgelord, but oh well.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:27 am

Lorkhan wrote:I'm hoping on the advent of a new religion in the next century or two that disposes of Christianity's rigid structure but assumes its universalism.

Quakers?
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Forestavia
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Founded: Oct 06, 2013
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Postby Forestavia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:44 am

Ifreann wrote:
Forestavia wrote:Yes, there is emotional grief. For sure. That pain will be there when a loved one dies. That is part of the human experience. It's an important part our experience. But what I'm saying is you can be at peace with the grief on a practical level. You can cry and be at peace with that emotion. On a spiritual level to conquer death is to realize that death is an illusion. Let me rephrase. It's an illusion that seems very real to us because it has real implications for us on a human level. But there is something eternal that was, is, and forever will be. I don't know how to describe it with words. That's why I use the word "God".

I don't call myself a Christian anymore but I do use the Bible here and there to get my points across. Jesus was onto something. He was telling the truth. Smart dude.

Gullibility? Kind of. You sort of do have to be willing to be vulnerable enough to be gullible for a little while. Took me about two decades to realize that because I was too proud of a false me that doesn't even exist. You don't have to be afraid of God. God's not going to abuse you. I know what I'm describing here sounds vague, philosophical, paradoxical, and counterintuitive, but this is real peace.


You're describing ataraxia, a state of tranquillity and freedom from mental stress achieved, according to Pyrrhonist sceptics, by suspending judgement on everything. If you convince yourself that nothing is good and nothing is bad then you don't need to worry about anything ever. You have nothing to avoid, nothing to pursue, and nothing to hold on to. Very interesting for those Greek philosophers who had slaves to tend to their every need, somewhat less so for those of us who have to look after ourselves or other people.


Ataraxia. Well, look at that. That sounds like it! Thank you. You taught me something new. So the Greeks new about this, too, then? I'm going to look into this. I think everyone should get this. Naturally, you're right. It's not full blown 100% of the time because we have responsibilities. It's hard to function humanly when it's full blown. But you can take a healthy portion of this with you in your day-to-day life and it is life changing. I feel like I only just started living. It's so life changing, it's profound. With ataraxia we could achieve world peace.

Is ataraxia simply an altered state of consciousness or is there something divine here? Is "God" the source of ataraxia? Is ataraxia a heightened state of love? Is it a mere psychological/medical condition? What is your take on this?

From my perspective, as fallible as my perspective is because it's polluted with ego, there seems to be more going on here than just apathy. I want to use the word transcendence because this, somehow, rides the line between existence and nonexistence. It feels expansive, and yet it's not going anywhere. Those Greeks were so smart. I'm going to look into this.

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:48 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Page wrote:
Funny how you mentioned abortion, cause the Bible is pro-abortion.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

If a man suspects his wife is pregnant by another man, he shall bring his wife to a priest. The priest will have her drink "bitter water" and put a curse on her. If she has been faithful and is pregnant by her husband, her baby will be fine, but if the baby is someone else's, she'll miscarry. God will strike down an innocent fetus for the sins of its mother. The Bible is very clear here that a fetus conceived by adultery should die.

That's long been one of my go-to pro-choice arguments. That and -- while I'm not Catholic -- the Catholic saints who performed abortions.

EDIT: Not that this is the thread for that, of course.

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Forestavia
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Postby Forestavia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:09 am

Thuzbekistan wrote:
Forestavia wrote:I don't call myself anything anymore. God is huge. God is much bigger than me or the Christian worldview, or any worldview for that matter. My understanding of the Trinity is that it is a form of idolatry (Exodus 20). We are not to create a graven image of God. It doesn't matter whether the image is a form in our minds or whether it is a carving in wood. The Trinity is a Father, Son, Holy Spirit concept. A concept is a thought with form. So the Holy Trinity has created a stumbling block for many Christians because they are expected to hold onto a graven image of God in their minds. As Lao Tzu has written, "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao." The ancient Jews didn't even want to write the name of God on a piece of paper. We went from an attitude of sanctifying the very name of God thousands of years ago to a Trinitarian graven image concept in the 21st century.

If that's what you believe.

Nooooooooooo. It's not what I believe. You're missing the point. Beliefs, themselves, are the problem!

My point here was not to trash the Trinity. I could care less if people believe in the Trinity or not. My point was to get a reaction out of your ego - the you that you think you are. It's an illustrative point to create more awareness of the prison of your own mind. I took the most sacred thing in your religion and I turned it into the most profane. What was your internal reaction when you read my post? Did you feel superior to me? Did you feel outwitted? Did you feel right? Did you feel wrong? Did you feel pity for my ignorance as a "lost person"? By attacking the belief that someone identifies with, we can reveal their true identity. Your identity is not in a Trinity concept or in any other belief. Your identity is not even in your internal reaction to my post. Your true spiritual identity is in "Christ". But what does that word "Christ" even mean anymore? You said earlier that Christ is a bridge. A bridge to where? Where are you going? Do you believe you're going somewhere? Do you take pride in where you're going?

You are a new creation in "Christ", not an old creation based off of old beliefs. If you are leaning on your own beliefs (the Holy Trinity for example), then you are leaning on your own understanding. But the Bible says you're supposed to trust in God. When I say "God" I'm not talking about a concept. "God" is not an idea. God is beyond the realm of thought.

You are a Christian so you know that pride is the root of sin. To conquer sin, one must rip it out by the root, right? So, how often do we cling to a belief so tightly to the point where that belief becomes a part of our identity? It doesn't take long for the delusion of ego to pollute that identity with pride. Are you proud of what you believe? I used to be. Look at this thread for example! Look at the signatures. They are full of empty labels and empty opinions. They are just empty words reflecting empty thoughts that people wear as badges. We think these beliefs hold power and meaning because we are slaves to our pride. People are proud of who they are - of who they think they are. We all do this. I'm all about the oneness of God right now but guess what? That's a concept! I am only a hop, skip, and a jump away from idolatry myself. I have to be careful because pride is always lurking. Where do beliefs even come from? Pride.

To go across that bridge (wherever it leads), you have to take up your cross and follow him. You have to conquer sin completely. It's not just about sacrificing your vices, fasting during Lent, or going to Church, as helpful as those things may be. You have to be willing to sacrifice everything that your mind thinks is important including beliefs themselves. It's complete surrender. When that happens, you'll be free. You'll be born again. True faith is embodied by the love and freedom that comes from an absence of identity, not by pride and beliefs.

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Forestavia
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Postby Forestavia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:16 am

Neutraligon wrote:You know, I kinda want to know what definition Forestavia is using for the word perfect, pure and love.

That's a trick question! ;)

It's a perfection that transcends all other perfections.
It's a purity beyond all purities.
It's a love above all loves.
There's no way to say it with language. God is beyond language and is prior to thought itself.

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Libertas Omnium Maximus
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Postby Libertas Omnium Maximus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:19 am

The more we "learn" about the ways our universe works, the more faithful I am in God. I was brought up believing in Christianity, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I intend to die that way.
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Vaeruio
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Postby Vaeruio » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:27 am

I am an Christian, specifically LDS. Though I won't speak of why I believe, as I am bad at explaining things. Anyways I am going to take a neutral stance in this discussion, as it could either way god could be real or he could be fake. Maybe I'll break that neutrality and try and answer some questions but I don't know, anyways bye.

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Teshin Est
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Postby Teshin Est » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:31 am

The Rapture Republic wrote:Like the above. There isn’t enough evidence to believe in the existence of an all-powerful entity.

there you need to do some more research on it before you say anything

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:58 am

Forestavia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:
You're describing ataraxia, a state of tranquillity and freedom from mental stress achieved, according to Pyrrhonist sceptics, by suspending judgement on everything. If you convince yourself that nothing is good and nothing is bad then you don't need to worry about anything ever. You have nothing to avoid, nothing to pursue, and nothing to hold on to. Very interesting for those Greek philosophers who had slaves to tend to their every need, somewhat less so for those of us who have to look after ourselves or other people.


Ataraxia. Well, look at that. That sounds like it! Thank you. You taught me something new. So the Greeks new about this, too, then? I'm going to look into this. I think everyone should get this. Naturally, you're right. It's not full blown 100% of the time because we have responsibilities. It's hard to function humanly when it's full blown. But you can take a healthy portion of this with you in your day-to-day life and it is life changing. I feel like I only just started living. It's so life changing, it's profound. With ataraxia we could achieve world peace.

Is ataraxia simply an altered state of consciousness or is there something divine here? Is "God" the source of ataraxia? Is ataraxia a heightened state of love? Is it a mere psychological/medical condition? What is your take on this?

From my perspective, as fallible as my perspective is because it's polluted with ego, there seems to be more going on here than just apathy. I want to use the word transcendence because this, somehow, rides the line between existence and nonexistence. It feels expansive, and yet it's not going anywhere. Those Greeks were so smart. I'm going to look into this.

As I alluded to in that post, this is really only something that can be pursued from a position of privilege. Telling people who are suffering in their day to day lives that actually suffering isn't bad is just going to get you told to go fuck yourself.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:01 am

Forestavia wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:You know, I kinda want to know what definition Forestavia is using for the word perfect, pure and love.

That's a trick question! ;)

It's a perfection that transcends all other perfections.
It's a purity beyond all purities.
It's a love above all loves.
There's no way to say it with language. God is beyond language and is prior to thought itself.

No it isn't, and you have yet to answer the question. If you wish ti actually have a discussion we must first know what it is you are talking about. Right now all you are saying is word salad. Your arguments are completely incoherent, to the point where I am pretty sure you do not know what it is you are trying to say.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:06 am

Libertas Omnium Maximus wrote:The more we "learn" about the ways our universe works, the more faithful I am in God. I was brought up believing in Christianity, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I intend to die that way.

God of the gaps by any chance?
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Forestavia
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Postby Forestavia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 am

Ifreann wrote:As I alluded to in that post, this is really only something that can be pursued from a position of privilege. Telling people who are suffering in their day to day lives that actually suffering isn't bad is just going to get you told to go fuck yourself.


I know. This is one of the major hurdles with this topic. I have chronic pain issues and if I would have told myself how I feel about suffering now as opposed to then, I probably would have told myself to go fuck off. I would've dismissed it as an opinion that doesn't change the reality of the situation. It doesn't change the reality of physical suffering for the child with cancer or for the person suffering from pain. But again, this is accessible to anyone. There is something empowering that we have that many people don't discover. No matter what your position in society, no matter what kind of suffering you have. Ironically, the suffering that I've gone through has actually helped me to get here, to discover this ataraxia, rebirth, spiritual breakthrough thingy. There were so many times in the past that I blamed God, I didn't see the truth that was right in front of me the whole time. It's possible to die and feel pain without the "burden" of suffering. I know that won't make any sense until it does. But I would start with the next time you suffer from something in your life. Be conscious of the fact that you can suffer and be miserable or you can suffer and be happy. Or simply just observe how you react to your suffering. Observe how Ifreann suffers in day-to-day life.

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Postby Dogmeat » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:42 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Libertas Omnium Maximus wrote:The more we "learn" about the ways our universe works, the more faithful I am in God. I was brought up believing in Christianity, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I intend to die that way.

God of the gaps by any chance?

Sounds like straight-up confirmation bias to me. "I am determined to believe x, therefore everything I learn must support x."
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Forestavia
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Postby Forestavia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:00 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Forestavia wrote:That's a trick question! ;)

It's a perfection that transcends all other perfections.
It's a purity beyond all purities.
It's a love above all loves.
There's no way to say it with language. God is beyond language and is prior to thought itself.

No it isn't, and you have yet to answer the question. If you wish ti actually have a discussion we must first know what it is you are talking about. Right now all you are saying is word salad. Your arguments are completely incoherent, to the point where I am pretty sure you do not know what it is you are trying to say.


That's the problem. There's no way to talk about this. It's about a personal relationship with God. It's a relationship that's so personal that it doesn't resemble anything like a relationship at all. God is so personal that God is impersonal. God turns truth into word salads. It's the tower of Babel. 9 billion people on this planet are speaking 9 billion different languages. God only speaks in silence. God is silence itself. There is no discussion because there's nothing to discuss. There's nothing to believe. There's nothing to disbelieve. There's nothing to agree with or disagree with. There's just silence. God is death, sort of. Death might not be the best word to use here but it's not really about definitions and language and semantics. "God" is beyond all of that. I make no argument because there is no argument to make. I know what I'm trying to say, while also knowing that there is no way say it. You have to look past the words. Why did the Buddha dance around the issue of God's existence? Why did Christ say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life"? They were pointing to something, whether you want to call it "ultimate reality" or "ataraxia" or "God" is completely up to you. The only reason why God is so pure and perfect is because God is untainted by language or even thought. The Gospel has never once been shared. The Dharma has never once been transmitted.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:00 pm

Dogmeat wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:God of the gaps by any chance?

Sounds like straight-up confirmation bias to me. "I am determined to believe x, therefore everything I learn must support x."

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Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:04 pm

Listen, I believe in God, but let's make this crystal clear...

My grandfather's neighbor (an active participant in his church community, apparently) has actually unironically stated that it was Jesus that "gave him" his car.

It has been an inside joke with my grandfather ever since.

So long story short, don't be some dumbo who thinks Jesus is Heaven's car salesman.
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Forestavia
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Postby Forestavia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:11 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Listen, I believe in God, but let's make this crystal clear...

My grandfather's neighbor (an active participant in his church community, apparently) has actually unironically stated that it was Jesus that "gave him" his car.

It has been an inside joke with my grandfather ever since.

So long story short, don't be some dumbo who thinks Jesus is Heaven's car salesman.

The neighbor was probably just expressing gratitude for the blessing of a car by giving God the credit. I agree with you, though. Nothing wrong with gratitude but some people take it too far.

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The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord
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Postby The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:13 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Listen, I believe in God, but let's make this crystal clear...

My grandfather's neighbor (an active participant in his church community, apparently) has actually unironically stated that it was Jesus that "gave him" his car.

It has been an inside joke with my grandfather ever since.

So long story short, don't be some dumbo who thinks Jesus is Heaven's car salesman.


I guess you could call that car a holy roller. :p

This pun was lame; I'll excuse myself...
Last edited by The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord on Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:00 pm

Erythrean Thebes wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:And yet the Bible is internally inconsistent. The bible says that Jesus will be of the male line of David, Jesus having no father cannot be of that line. And if you say that he is also the sun of Joseph, then you have the issue that Joseph would have passed down the sin you said would show up genetically.

As I think, Jesus having been born into sin was a major reason why his subsequent life, teaching, and sacrifice was viewed as an impressive achievement and an act of heroism among the Jews. For the angel of the Lord said, in the Gospels of Matthew, "he shall save his people from their sins."

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:06 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
Erythrean Thebes wrote:As I think, Jesus having been born into sin was a major reason why his subsequent life, teaching, and sacrifice was viewed as an impressive achievement and an act of heroism among the Jews. For the angel of the Lord said, in the Gospels of Matthew, "he shall save his people from their sins."

We, as Orthodox Christians, don't believe that we're born in sim

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Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:25 pm

So all of you who refuse to believe in God, because of lack of evidence, where do you stand on aliens?
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Postby Frievolk » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:29 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:So all of you who refuse to believe in God, because of lack of evidence, where do you stand on aliens?

Their existence is more likely than that of god, at any rate. Though it's highly unlikely they're anywhere near us in a cosmic scale.
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The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord
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Father Knows Best State

Postby The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:29 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:So all of you who refuse to believe in God, because of lack of evidence, where do you stand on aliens?


I mean, I'm not technically the right person to ask *cough*Deism*cough*, but I find the existence of extraterrestrial life to be as of yet uncertain, but probable given the vastness of the cosmos/creation and the large numbers of potentially habitable exoplanets out there.
Last edited by The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord on Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
< THE HIGH SWAGLORD | 8VALUES | POLITISCALES >
My NS stats are not indicative of my OOC views. NS stats are meant to be rather silly. My OOC political and ideological inspirations are as such:
The Republic, by Plato | Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes | The Confucian civil service system of imperial China | The "Golden Liberty" elective
monarchy system of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth | The corporatist/technocratic philosophy of Henri de Saint-Simon | The communitarian
ideological framework of the Singaporean People's Action Party | "New Deal"-style societal regimentation | Kantian/Mohist/Stoic philosophy

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