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by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:06 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
If you create the universe, you're responsible for all of the natural things that arise in it.
Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.
We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view
by Novo Vaticanus » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:07 pm
Salandriagado wrote:God could have prevented cancer from arising. He didn't. Thus, he's evil. No arguing, no questions, not even if it was supposedly for some greater good: torturing children to death is evil, no matter what your excuse is.
by Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:07 pm
Salandriagado wrote:Jolthig wrote:Although I just joined your discussion with the other guy (not looking completely at the debate), this is a strawman. I did not say that God loves to torture kids to death with cancer because of whatever supposed malevolent nature that he has.
Nor did I say that you did.Suffering is neither good nor bad according to nature. If anyone gets a disease, then it's a natural process.
If you created nature, then the results of all natural processes are entirely and completely your fault.
Salandriagado wrote:A test for humanity to find a cure as I stated in my previous comment. Diseases also distinguish between good and bad people. The good will take action to ensure that the diseased person is taken care of and a cure is found while for the bad people, they are exposed for their nature.
And we're back to the "torturing children for the greater good" argument.
Salandriagado wrote:I probably should've said something else or been more specific in the comment as God is outside the physical universe (though at the same time, interacts with it according to Islamic beliefs). So my bad.
"Outside the physical universe" is literally the exact same statement as "doesn't exist".
by Salandriagado » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:07 pm
Novo Vaticanus wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
It seems like your whole problem with God is that kids get cancer. This is a very, very common argument against the faithand it really doesn't hold any kind of logical water if you think about it.
God created the universe apart from Himself. That means He gave up some level of His complete control in doing so. Cancer is just a thing that occurs in this Universe, which follows Newton's laws. It isn't like God created the whole fucking universe to just make cancer, haha. He created it so that we could exist within it, and then choose Him.
You had a lot more to say, but the only issue with the faith I could really distinguish was this, so, I'm glad to try and offer a refutation to any other theological claims you'd like to make against the Church.
I've said it many times before, and I'll say it a million more, there's no argument against the Catholic faith which can't be refuted.
by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:08 pm
And the universe we live in is one supposedly created by your god.Novo Vaticanus wrote:Salandriagado wrote:God could have prevented cancer from arising. He didn't. Thus, he's evil. No arguing, no questions, not even if it was supposedly for some greater good: torturing children to death is evil, no matter what your excuse is.
God didn't will it directly. It's a result of the Universe that we live in. If God took complete and absolute control over every facet of the Universe, there wouldn't be any kind of imperfection, or cancer.
by Dogmeat » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:09 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
If you create the universe, you're responsible for all of the natural things that arise in it.
Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.
We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view
by Novo Vaticanus » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:10 pm
by Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:10 pm
Novo Vaticanus wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
It seems like your whole problem with God is that kids get cancer. This is a very, very common argument against the faithand it really doesn't hold any kind of logical water if you think about it.
God created the universe apart from Himself. That means He gave up some level of His complete control in doing so. Cancer is just a thing that occurs in this Universe, which follows Newton's laws. It isn't like God created the whole fucking universe to just make cancer, haha. He created it so that we could exist within it, and then choose Him.
You had a lot more to say, but the only issue with the faith I could really distinguish was this, so, I'm glad to try and offer a refutation to any other theological claims you'd like to make against the Church.
I've said it many times before, and I'll say it a million more, there's no argument against the Catholic faith which can't be refuted.
by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
by Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:11 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.
We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view
It is called negligence, and is something that medical companies can be sued for.
by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:12 pm
by Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:12 pm
by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:13 pm
by Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:15 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Jolthig wrote:There are answers to that as well.
God, being the unchanging being that he is won't change his natural laws just to wipe out the moral bad from the earth with the snap of a fingers as it goes completely against his nature.
He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.
by Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:15 pm
Dogmeat wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.
We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view
I'm not an omniscient or omnipotent creator. I can claim ignorance of the consequences of my actions.
Everything that God supposedly creates, he creates knowing full-well exactly what the consistences will be.
by Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:16 pm
by Salandriagado » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
If you create the universe, you're responsible for all of the natural things that arise in it.
Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.
We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view
by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm
Jolthig wrote:Neutraligon wrote:He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.
Well, for one, I dont hold the Biblical view of God. Rather, the view of the Quran which places a lot for emphasis on the Oneness of God than the Bible does which the bible has quite inconsistent views on God indeed.
by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:18 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
If you create the universe, you're responsible for all of the natural things that arise in it.
Not really. If create a chair or a habit you are responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well I’m most places you aren’t.
We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view
by Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:18 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Jolthig wrote:There are answers to that as well.
God, being the unchanging being that he is won't change his natural laws just to wipe out the moral bad from the earth with the snap of a fingers as it goes completely against his nature.
He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.
by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Neutraligon wrote:He did not need to change to not make the natural laws as they are. Oh and...God does change, since change is necessary to do anything...and there are stories of him being willing to change his mind.
This presumes one believes that the biblical stories are 100% true. Which I do not. Every little story and miracle has a physical explanation. For example nobody was raised from the dead. They either had a heart attack or fell unconscious.
by Thermodolia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Thermodolia wrote:And I didn’t say otherwise.Thermodolia wrote:Not really. If create a chair or a habit you aren’t responsible for anything that happens afterwards. Well in most places you aren’t.
We have different views on the matter and it’s pointless to debate as we aren’t going to change eachothers view
by Salandriagado » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm
Novo Vaticanus wrote:Salandriagado wrote:God could have prevented cancer from arising. He didn't. Thus, he's evil. No arguing, no questions, not even if it was supposedly for some greater good: torturing children to death is evil, no matter what your excuse is.
God didn't will it directly. It's a result of the Universe that we live in. If God took complete and absolute control over every facet of the Universe, there wouldn't be any kind of imperfection, or cancer.
by Neutraligon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:21 pm
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