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by Logikie » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:02 am
by Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:06 am
by Flaireis » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:09 am
by Hittisha » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:13 am
by Erythrean Thebes » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:21 am
Logikie wrote:Mainly due to a lack of evidence to support the existence of such a being, no physical evidence that a so called "god" exists. I believe in science and logic, we have physical evidence of the big bang, there's cosmic radiation leftover from the big bang. Also the fact that religions constantly contradict themselves, it makes no sense. religion also creates bigotries, and is used as a tool to oppress people. Even if the existence of a deity is true I wouldn't put my faith in them as they must be a sadist or psychopath to let certain things in the world to happen such as genocide.
by Petrolheadia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:33 am
Erythrean Thebes wrote:Logikie wrote:Mainly due to a lack of evidence to support the existence of such a being, no physical evidence that a so called "god" exists. I believe in science and logic, we have physical evidence of the big bang, there's cosmic radiation leftover from the big bang. Also the fact that religions constantly contradict themselves, it makes no sense. religion also creates bigotries, and is used as a tool to oppress people. Even if the existence of a deity is true I wouldn't put my faith in them as they must be a sadist or psychopath to let certain things in the world to happen such as genocide.
This seems like a commonplace formula for atheism in the West. And personally, I don't have any quarrel with these views, although I do consider it unacceptable if someone harangues me about my spirituality when I'm not willing to speak to them any further. However, in the context of an open debate and discussion, I want to take the opportunity to question the point of your last sentence.
In my opinion, this is the ULTIMATE fallacy in atheism as an argument with religion and spirituality. I was not aware that any religious person, except for somebody weak/selfish/or simpleminded, could seriously believe that the notion of God includes some pervasive service to extinguish all harm and prevent all negativity in life. At least in regards to Christianity, if you look at the original source documents of the faith, as far as I've ever read any of them (through to the Protestant Revolution), scholars of our religion either make no such claim at all, or they are fairly clear about specifying that God's contribution to justice is usually posthumous and/or retrospective. Fair enough that you, like myself also, consider the modern-day delusion of an omnipresent God to be foolish and impossible, but I would like to qualify that by pointing out that most Christians before the Puritan movement in England and America did not think that God prevented bad things from happening to 'good' people.
I don't think it changes the basis of atheism, but I do think it is a very important distinction, and I think advocates for atheism make a more than trivial mistake when they portray Christianity this way.
by Frievolk » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:38 am
Petrolheadia wrote:Erythrean Thebes wrote:This seems like a commonplace formula for atheism in the West. And personally, I don't have any quarrel with these views, although I do consider it unacceptable if someone harangues me about my spirituality when I'm not willing to speak to them any further. However, in the context of an open debate and discussion, I want to take the opportunity to question the point of your last sentence.
In my opinion, this is the ULTIMATE fallacy in atheism as an argument with religion and spirituality. I was not aware that any religious person, except for somebody weak/selfish/or simpleminded, could seriously believe that the notion of God includes some pervasive service to extinguish all harm and prevent all negativity in life. At least in regards to Christianity, if you look at the original source documents of the faith, as far as I've ever read any of them (through to the Protestant Revolution), scholars of our religion either make no such claim at all, or they are fairly clear about specifying that God's contribution to justice is usually posthumous and/or retrospective. Fair enough that you, like myself also, consider the modern-day delusion of an omnipresent God to be foolish and impossible, but I would like to qualify that by pointing out that most Christians before the Puritan movement in England and America did not think that God prevented bad things from happening to 'good' people.
I don't think it changes the basis of atheism, but I do think it is a very important distinction, and I think advocates for atheism make a more than trivial mistake when they portray Christianity this way.
So, God is kinda evil?
♔ The Frievolker Empire || Frievolker Kaiserreik ♔
♔ The Realm in the Sun || De Reik in de Sonne ♔
♔ Led by Kaiser Johann, Part of the Erstwelt ♔
Never forget that the Muslims literally made up a new meaningless name for him when they forgot the name of Adam's Firstborn.
by Thuzbekistan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:38 am
by Aellex » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:39 am
Petrolheadia wrote:Erythrean Thebes wrote:This seems like a commonplace formula for atheism in the West. And personally, I don't have any quarrel with these views, although I do consider it unacceptable if someone harangues me about my spirituality when I'm not willing to speak to them any further. However, in the context of an open debate and discussion, I want to take the opportunity to question the point of your last sentence.
In my opinion, this is the ULTIMATE fallacy in atheism as an argument with religion and spirituality. I was not aware that any religious person, except for somebody weak/selfish/or simpleminded, could seriously believe that the notion of God includes some pervasive service to extinguish all harm and prevent all negativity in life. At least in regards to Christianity, if you look at the original source documents of the faith, as far as I've ever read any of them (through to the Protestant Revolution), scholars of our religion either make no such claim at all, or they are fairly clear about specifying that God's contribution to justice is usually posthumous and/or retrospective. Fair enough that you, like myself also, consider the modern-day delusion of an omnipresent God to be foolish and impossible, but I would like to qualify that by pointing out that most Christians before the Puritan movement in England and America did not think that God prevented bad things from happening to 'good' people.
I don't think it changes the basis of atheism, but I do think it is a very important distinction, and I think advocates for atheism make a more than trivial mistake when they portray Christianity this way.
So, God is kinda evil?
Because it would take quite a fair share of malice to do harm to people when you are omnipotent, and have them worship you for that.
by Thuzbekistan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:44 am
by The Grims » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:46 am
by The World Capitalist Confederation » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:48 am
Australian rePublic wrote:The World Capitalist Confederation wrote:Rather than materialism, it’s more linked to education: those with more education are more likely to be wealthy, and atheist at the same time. Correlation =/= Causation. Give a poor person education for free and they’ll be as likely to become an atheist as the rich man with the same amount of education. It’s a case of C causes both A and B rather than A causing B. With the same fallacy, we could say that cigarettes cause cancer by physically existing.
The argument that religious people are uneducated is absolutely and utterly moronic. I have a basic, basic understanding of theology, and can tell you that there is absolutely no way that you can conduct advanced, or even intimediate theology, unless you're HIGHLY educated. And that's just if you conduct theology in YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE. That does NOT include those who learn Ancient Hebrew/Greek/(insert language which applies to your religion). I'll pose a theological question to you and you judge for yourself if you can answer it, USING THE BIBLE ALONE:
What does the Old Testament tell us about Jesus (and don't say nothing. The answer most certainly is NOT nothing. Also, don't tell us the requirements for the arrival of the messiah. That's a cop out)
by Salandriagado » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:52 am
Erythrean Thebes wrote:Logikie wrote:Mainly due to a lack of evidence to support the existence of such a being, no physical evidence that a so called "god" exists. I believe in science and logic, we have physical evidence of the big bang, there's cosmic radiation leftover from the big bang. Also the fact that religions constantly contradict themselves, it makes no sense. religion also creates bigotries, and is used as a tool to oppress people. Even if the existence of a deity is true I wouldn't put my faith in them as they must be a sadist or psychopath to let certain things in the world to happen such as genocide.
This seems like a commonplace formula for atheism in the West. And personally, I don't have any quarrel with these views, although I do consider it unacceptable if someone harangues me about my spirituality when I'm not willing to speak to them any further. However, in the context of an open debate and discussion, I want to take the opportunity to question the point of your last sentence.
In my opinion, this is the ULTIMATE fallacy in atheism as an argument with religion and spirituality. I was not aware that any religious person, except for somebody weak/selfish/or simpleminded, could seriously believe that the notion of God includes some pervasive service to extinguish all harm and prevent all negativity in life. At least in regards to Christianity, if you look at the original source documents of the faith, as far as I've ever read any of them (through to the Protestant Revolution), scholars of our religion either make no such claim at all, or they are fairly clear about specifying that God's contribution to justice is usually posthumous and/or retrospective. Fair enough that you, like myself also, consider the modern-day delusion of an omnipresent God to be foolish and impossible, but I would like to qualify that by pointing out that most Christians before the Puritan movement in England and America did not think that God prevented bad things from happening to 'good' people.
I don't think it changes the basis of atheism, but I do think it is a very important distinction, and I think advocates for atheism make a more than trivial mistake when they portray Christianity this way.
by Salandriagado » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:53 am
by Sovaal » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:54 am
by Ifreann » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:59 am
by Erythrean Thebes » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:00 am
Petrolheadia wrote:So, God is kinda evil?
Because it would take quite a fair share of malice to do harm to people when you are omnipotent, and have them worship you for that.
by Erythrean Thebes » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:04 am
Salandriagado wrote:Erythrean Thebes wrote:This seems like a commonplace formula for atheism in the West. And personally, I don't have any quarrel with these views, although I do consider it unacceptable if someone harangues me about my spirituality when I'm not willing to speak to them any further. However, in the context of an open debate and discussion, I want to take the opportunity to question the point of your last sentence.
In my opinion, this is the ULTIMATE fallacy in atheism as an argument with religion and spirituality. I was not aware that any religious person, except for somebody weak/selfish/or simpleminded, could seriously believe that the notion of God includes some pervasive service to extinguish all harm and prevent all negativity in life. At least in regards to Christianity, if you look at the original source documents of the faith, as far as I've ever read any of them (through to the Protestant Revolution), scholars of our religion either make no such claim at all, or they are fairly clear about specifying that God's contribution to justice is usually posthumous and/or retrospective. Fair enough that you, like myself also, consider the modern-day delusion of an omnipresent God to be foolish and impossible, but I would like to qualify that by pointing out that most Christians before the Puritan movement in England and America did not think that God prevented bad things from happening to 'good' people.
I don't think it changes the basis of atheism, but I do think it is a very important distinction, and I think advocates for atheism make a more than trivial mistake when they portray Christianity this way.
All of this is irrelevant: any entity that has the power to end suffering, but allows childhood cancer to continue to exist, is evil. What their fan club says about them is entirely irrelevant, they're still evil. Thus, we are still left with the trichotomy: any deity is either evil (because it allows childhood cancer to exist), weak (because it can't stop childhood cancer), or doesn't exist. So which is it? Is your god evil, weak, or non-existent?
by The New California Republic » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:13 am
by The Grims » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:13 am
Erythrean Thebes wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
All of this is irrelevant: any entity that has the power to end suffering, but allows childhood cancer to continue to exist, is evil. What their fan club says about them is entirely irrelevant, they're still evil. Thus, we are still left with the trichotomy: any deity is either evil (because it allows childhood cancer to exist), weak (because it can't stop childhood cancer), or doesn't exist. So which is it? Is your god evil, weak, or non-existent?
You have to begin by offering proof that what the Bible says about you is untrue. They say that you descend from a line of people who are defined congenitally by their inexcusable and despicable proclivity to lie, to cheat, to steal, to do harm, to show disrespect to authority, to have no concern for law and order, to put their arrogance before their compassion and do what they want to others. Unless you can show that it's not true about you then, regardless what your particular opinion may be, there is reason to view God's sentence passed upon you (and our species) as justified. And if you aren't such a person, then there is actually a rather heroic and admirable figure, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who gave away his life under painful and humiliating circumstances in order serve as an inspiration and a succor for you, and to give you the reassurance and the peace of mind that your hard material life may not be all there is to look forward to, but in fact you may have a just reward prepared for you after death, to sit in the kingdom of heaven as one free of sickness and misery, liberated from evils such as cancer
by Frievolk » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:15 am
The Grims wrote:Erythrean Thebes wrote:You have to begin by offering proof that what the Bible says about you is untrue. They say that you descend from a line of people who are defined congenitally by their inexcusable and despicable proclivity to lie, to cheat, to steal, to do harm, to show disrespect to authority, to have no concern for law and order, to put their arrogance before their compassion and do what they want to others. Unless you can show that it's not true about you then, regardless what your particular opinion may be, there is reason to view God's sentence passed upon you (and our species) as justified. And if you aren't such a person, then there is actually a rather heroic and admirable figure, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who gave away his life under painful and humiliating circumstances in order serve as an inspiration and a succor for you, and to give you the reassurance and the peace of mind that your hard material life may not be all there is to look forward to, but in fact you may have a just reward prepared for you after death, to sit in the kingdom of heaven as one free of sickness and misery, liberated from evils such as cancer
Why would the crimes of your ancestors justify torturing you?
♔ The Frievolker Empire || Frievolker Kaiserreik ♔
♔ The Realm in the Sun || De Reik in de Sonne ♔
♔ Led by Kaiser Johann, Part of the Erstwelt ♔
Never forget that the Muslims literally made up a new meaningless name for him when they forgot the name of Adam's Firstborn.
by Ifreann » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:15 am
The Grims wrote:Erythrean Thebes wrote:You have to begin by offering proof that what the Bible says about you is untrue. They say that you descend from a line of people who are defined congenitally by their inexcusable and despicable proclivity to lie, to cheat, to steal, to do harm, to show disrespect to authority, to have no concern for law and order, to put their arrogance before their compassion and do what they want to others. Unless you can show that it's not true about you then, regardless what your particular opinion may be, there is reason to view God's sentence passed upon you (and our species) as justified. And if you aren't such a person, then there is actually a rather heroic and admirable figure, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who gave away his life under painful and humiliating circumstances in order serve as an inspiration and a succor for you, and to give you the reassurance and the peace of mind that your hard material life may not be all there is to look forward to, but in fact you may have a just reward prepared for you after death, to sit in the kingdom of heaven as one free of sickness and misery, liberated from evils such as cancer
Why would the crimes of your ancestors justify torturing you?
by Petrolheadia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:17 am
Erythrean Thebes wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
All of this is irrelevant: any entity that has the power to end suffering, but allows childhood cancer to continue to exist, is evil. What their fan club says about them is entirely irrelevant, they're still evil. Thus, we are still left with the trichotomy: any deity is either evil (because it allows childhood cancer to exist), weak (because it can't stop childhood cancer), or doesn't exist. So which is it? Is your god evil, weak, or non-existent?
You have to begin by offering proof that what the Bible says about you is untrue. They say that you descend from a line of people who are defined congenitally by their inexcusable and despicable proclivity to lie, to cheat, to steal, to do harm, to show disrespect to authority, to have no concern for law and order, to put their arrogance before their compassion and do what they want to others. Unless you can show that it's not true about you then, regardless what your particular opinion may be, there is reason to view God's sentence passed upon you (and our species) as justified. And if you aren't such a person, then there is actually a rather heroic and admirable figure, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who gave away his life under painful and humiliating circumstances in order serve as an inspiration and a succor for you, and to give you the reassurance and the peace of mind that your hard material life may not be all there is to look forward to, but in fact you may have a just reward prepared for you after death, to sit in the kingdom of heaven as one free of sickness and misery, liberated from evils such as cancer
by Erythrean Thebes » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:20 am
The Grims wrote:Erythrean Thebes wrote:You have to begin by offering proof that what the Bible says about you is untrue. They say that you descend from a line of people who are defined congenitally by their inexcusable and despicable proclivity to lie, to cheat, to steal, to do harm, to show disrespect to authority, to have no concern for law and order, to put their arrogance before their compassion and do what they want to others. Unless you can show that it's not true about you then, regardless what your particular opinion may be, there is reason to view God's sentence passed upon you (and our species) as justified. And if you aren't such a person, then there is actually a rather heroic and admirable figure, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who gave away his life under painful and humiliating circumstances in order serve as an inspiration and a succor for you, and to give you the reassurance and the peace of mind that your hard material life may not be all there is to look forward to, but in fact you may have a just reward prepared for you after death, to sit in the kingdom of heaven as one free of sickness and misery, liberated from evils such as cancer
Why would the crimes of your ancestors justify torturing you?
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