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The end of Venezuela's "socialist paradise"

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:20 pm
by Gospel Power
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/for ... las-crisis

Visiting the forums became a hobbie for me.
I am not strong with debates, but I like to see how people discuss about all sorts of topics, and to learn from them.
Therefore, again, I start another topic to discuss about:
Socialism and Venezuela.

Anyway, Socialism:

In my opinion, socialism is an interesting ideology, myself don't support very much free market capitalism, but more for mixed economy systems, therefore, socialism looks to me nice with some of it aspects (and communist music is pretty good).
As for socialist policies, for me universal healthcare, free education and welfare look like interesting subjects, I support government regulations on businesses which mislead the public, in short words:
I am not a capitalist, but definitely not a communist, since communism is against my non-economical beliefs:

I don't support a worldwide communist revolution and don't view religion as "opium for the people", those are my major disagreements with this system, not to mention the gulags and times of stalinism, Soviet Union wasn't "dictatorship of the proletarians", but a dictatorship, militaristic and imperialist.

Socialism is a:

"political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole".

Many say that there are only 5 communist countries left in the world:
China, cube, north Korea, Vietnam, and Venezuela.
The debate If those countries are truly following communism is up to you.

Now, we all know that Hugo Chávez, the ruler of Venezuela between year 2002-2013, was a socialist.
I know that He improved the lifestyle of the Venezuelan people, he spent a lot on social policies which really helped to the Venezuelan people, but after his death, the Venezuelan economical crisis start to took place, meaning that something was wrong with his system.

Like me, Chávez wasn't always very clear about his economical and social policies, I know that he supported Bolivarianism and Marxism, encouraged to establish
A nation which values liberty, equality, social justice, and solidarity.
But He has also indicated that it is distinctly different from state socialism.

Anyway, when we look at the article we get the full picture about today's Venezuela:

"A once-wealthy oil nation, Venezuela is in the throes of crisis after two decades of socialist rule, marked by hyperinflation that makes it difficult for people to afford scarce food and medicine. An estimated 2.3 million Venezuelans have migrated from the country since 2015, according to the United Nations".

Is socialism a failure? Some will say "Yes" and some will "No", as I see it now, for me it would be yes, it was better to Venezuela stay capitalist, rather to accept Hugo's economical system, which brought this nightmare.
In fact, Venezuela situation is so bad that
Latin American governments and Canada urge Maduro to ceda power .

Who is Nicolás Maduro?:

Venezuelan politician who has served as the 46th President of Venezuela since 2013 and previously served under President Hugo Chávez as Minister of Foreign Affairs from 2006 to 2013 and as Vice President of Venezuela from 2012 to 2013.

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol%C3%A1s_Maduro)

Is socialism a failure or not?
Why you support/not support socialism/communism?
What would be the future of Venezuela?
Is capitalist democracy the best system we could get?
Does china, cube, north Korea, Vietnam, and even Venezuela, are truly communist nations?

First parts of the article:

"LIMA, Peru — A dozen Latin American governments and Canada delivered a blistering rebuke to Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on Friday, questioning the legitimacy of his soon-to-begin second term and urging him to hand over power as the only path to restoring democracy in his crisis-wracked South American country.


The sharp criticism came at a meeting in Peru’s capital of foreign ministers from countries including Argentina, Brazil and Colombia, all of which have been weighing how to confront the increasingly authoritarian Maduro while absorbing a growing exodus of Venezuelans fleeing economic chaos.

In a statement, the Lima Group urged Maduro to refrain from taking the presidential oath next Thursday and instead cede power to the opposition-controlled congress until new, fairer elections can be held.

“Only through the full restoration, as soon as possible, of democracy and a respect for human rights is it possible to resolve the country’s political, economic, social and humanitarian crisis,” the diplomats said".

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:38 pm
by Liriena
vuvuzela

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:11 pm
by Counterfeit trouser shortage
venezuela isn't socialist

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:26 pm
by Trollzyn the Infinite
Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:28 pm
by Borovan3
Venezuela's socialism is a failure. Whatever Trotsky has said rings true that if you have a system an agarian system that needs to progress fully to capitalism and then to socialism. Venezuela is a failure and has failed to promote a mixed economy like that of social democratism or mid socialism. The idea that dictators can clamp down on their economy, promote military propaganda and paranoia, while enforcing nonsense ideas such as protectionism, rent control, price controls on wages and goods and services and centralized state planning goes against the free flow of capitalism which will promote the welfare of people. Capitlaism has serious flaws and that's where government intervention and serious tinkering comes in like progressive taxation and not full fronted government takeover of critical public goods and services.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:28 pm
by New Avalon
Counterfeit trouser shortage wrote:venezuela isn't socialist

this

True Socialism© has never been tried.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:28 pm
by Gig em Aggies
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

It kind of sounds like that what the socialist in the US Congress want for Americans.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:30 pm
by The New California Republic
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

I mean, it was heading in that general direction, until chronic economic mismanagement led to it completely careening off the rails.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:30 pm
by Trollzyn the Infinite
New Avalon wrote:
Counterfeit trouser shortage wrote:venezuela isn't socialist

this

True Socialism© has never been tried.


Nice meme.

Gig em Aggies wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

It kind of sounds like that what the socialist in the US Congress want for Americans.


There are no Socialists in Congress. Go fearmonger somewhere else, please.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:31 pm
by Trollzyn the Infinite
The New California Republic wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

I mean, it was heading in that general direction, until chronic economic mismanagement led to it completely careening off the rails.


Chronic economic mismanagement is a staple of Socialism and cannot be avoided. That's why it always fails in the first place.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:33 pm
by New haven america
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

Yes, we get it, capitalism is the only true economic system.

Let's just forget the fact that A. That shitty meme is about Communism, not Socialism, B. True Communism has never actually been achieved (That would be a: Stateless, Classless society where workers control the means of production), and C. You're actually living in a Socialist society, Socialism tends to be ahead of the trend and evolves over time with it's original purpose being to give people universal suffrage, union/worker rights, etc... so if you live in any of the developed nations, then congrats, you live in a Socialist society!

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:36 pm
by The New California Republic
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I mean, it was heading in that general direction, until chronic economic mismanagement led to it completely careening off the rails.


Chronic economic mismanagement is a staple of Socialism and cannot be avoided. That's why it always fails in the first place.

Mixed-economy socialism with the presence of small and medium private businesses is probably the only way it could feasibly work, as the rot tends to start creeping in from a lack of them, or at least it did in East Germany.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:37 pm
by Trollzyn the Infinite
New haven america wrote:Yes, we get it, capitalism is the only true economic system.


Not the only one that's true; but the only one proven to work. That makes it's shortcomings unfortunately acceptable.

Let's just forget the fact that A. That shitty meme is about Communism, not Socialism, B. True Communism has never actually been achieved (That would be a: Stateless, Classless society where workers control the means of production),


I know the difference between Communism and Socialism, thank you.

and C. You're actually living in a Socialist society, Socialism tends to be ahead of the trend and evolves over time, with it's original purpose being to give people universal suffrage, union/worker rights, etc... so if you live in any of the developed nations, then congrats, you live in a Socialist society!


Thanks for the laugh.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:38 pm
by Trollzyn the Infinite
The New California Republic wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Chronic economic mismanagement is a staple of Socialism and cannot be avoided. That's why it always fails in the first place.

Mixed-economy socialism with the presence of small and medium private businesses is probably the only way it could feasibly work, as the rot tends to start creeping in from a lack of them, or at least it did in East Germany.


But then it wouldn't be Socialism.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:38 pm
by Costa Fierro
I know that He improved the lifestyle of the Venezuelan people, he spent a lot on social policies which really helped to the Venezuelan people, but after his death, the Venezuelan economical crisis start to took place, meaning that something was wrong with his system.


And that thing was (among other issues) the foreign currency exchange, but that issue became a problem long before Chavez took power. Chavez tried to fix it and it did work for a couple of years by establishing a fixed exchange rate. However, people figured out they could just sell dollars for however many bolivars they wanted and thus the official exchange rate is now utterly meaningless. Meaning importing goods became impossible due to the lack of knowledge about what a single bolivar is actually worth. Cue the knock-on effects of having massive shortages of basic goods.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:41 pm
by Erythrean Thebes
Socialism is a bad idea if the nation is not already very wealthy. Venezuela was not wealthy; what would be the point of collectivizing and pursuing autarchy when you have so little? Successful industrial economies in history allowed independent ventures to acquire considerable wealth, first, creating commercial networks of high value from which large middle-classes and philanthropic services developed. Venezuela should have done this first and then socialized when it had acquired a lot of wealth

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:42 pm
by New haven america
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
New haven america wrote:Yes, we get it, capitalism is the only true economic system.


1. Not the only one that's true; but the only one proven to work. That makes it's shortcomings unfortunately acceptable.

Let's just forget the fact that A. That shitty meme is about Communism, not Socialism, B. True Communism has never actually been achieved (That would be a: Stateless, Classless society where workers control the means of production),


2.I know the difference between Communism and Socialism, thank you.

and C. You're actually living in a Socialist society, Socialism tends to be ahead of the trend and evolves over time, with it's original purpose being to give people universal suffrage, union/worker rights, etc... so if you live in any of the developed nations, then congrats, you live in a Socialist society!


3.Thanks for the laugh.

1. No, several have been proven to work, most of them being mixed systems between Capitalism and Socialism.
2. Obviously you don't or else you wouldn't have posted that shitty meme to begin with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
3. As someone who actually understand economic systems and their history, watching you act as if you know the history of those history of those systems is funny. Keep it up, I need some afternoon entertainment.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:45 pm
by Costa Fierro
Erythrean Thebes wrote:Socialism is a bad idea if the nation is not already very wealthy. Venezuela was not wealthy; what would be the point of collectivizing and pursuing autarchy when you have so little?


Venezuela wasn't really a dirt poor country a la sub-Saharan Africa, or even Bolivia.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:47 pm
by The New California Republic
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Mixed-economy socialism with the presence of small and medium private businesses is probably the only way it could feasibly work, as the rot tends to start creeping in from a lack of them, or at least it did in East Germany.


But then it wouldn't be Socialism.

Alec Nove certainly thought it was, as what I described is basically his model of Feasible Socialism.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:47 pm
by Trollzyn the Infinite
New haven america wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
1. Not the only one that's true; but the only one proven to work. That makes it's shortcomings unfortunately acceptable.



2.I know the difference between Communism and Socialism, thank you.



3.Thanks for the laugh.

1. No, several have been proven to work, most of them being mixed systems between Capitalism and Socialism.
2. Obviously you don't or else you wouldn't have posted that shitty meme to begin with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
3. As someone who actually understand economic systems and their history, watching you act as if you know the history of those history of those systems is funny. Keep it up, I need some afternoon entertainment.


Look, I don't know what you think Socialism is, but you clearly have a pretty warped idea of what it is if you think being a developed nation makes you Socialist. That's the most idiotic claim I've heard in a while, and I've heard a lot of idiotic claims.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:48 pm
by Trollzyn the Infinite
The New California Republic wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
But then it wouldn't be Socialism.

Alec Nove certainly thought it was, as what I described is basically his model of Feasible Socialism.


"Feasible Socialism" just sounds like Third Positionism to me.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:49 pm
by Smugolia
“I keep building this one rocket that should achieve FTL speeds, but everytime it blows up 10 seconds after launch!... I’ll try it again, those weren’t the real models anyway.”


This is Marxism and it’s derivatives as a whole.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:50 pm
by Washington Resistance Army
New haven america wrote:and C. You're actually living in a Socialist society, Socialism tends to be ahead of the trend and evolves over time with it's original purpose being to give people universal suffrage, union/worker rights, etc... so if you live in any of the developed nations, then congrats, you live in a Socialist society!


None of those have anything to do with socialism lol

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:52 pm
by LiberNovusAmericae
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

This ^^

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:53 pm
by Deltanium
The reason Chavez failed is because he borrowed excessive amounts of cash to fund his programs