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The end of Venezuela's "socialist paradise"

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New Avalon
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Founded: Mar 28, 2013
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Postby New Avalon » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:53 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. No, several have been proven to work, most of them being mixed systems between Capitalism and Socialism.
2. Obviously you don't or else you wouldn't have posted that shitty meme to begin with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
3. As someone who actually understand economic systems and their history, watching you act as if you know the history of those history of those systems is funny. Keep it up, I need some afternoon entertainment.


Look, I don't know what you think Socialism is, but you clearly have a pretty warped idea of what it is if you think being a developed nation makes you Socialist. That's the most idiotic claim I've heard in a while, and I've heard a lot of idiotic claims.

Socialism is the good things in Western societies :D

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:53 pm

Smugolia wrote:“I keep building this one rocket that should achieve FTL speeds, but everytime it blows up 10 seconds after launch!... I’ll try it again, those weren’t the real models anyway.”


This is Marxism and it’s derivatives as a whole.


Basically what I said, but yours is funnier. Kudos.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
New haven america wrote:and C. You're actually living in a Socialist society, Socialism tends to be ahead of the trend and evolves over time with it's original purpose being to give people universal suffrage, union/worker rights, etc... so if you live in any of the developed nations, then congrats, you live in a Socialist society!


None of those have anything to do with socialism lol


Ah, but didn't you know? Megacorporations, invasive ads, and rampant consumerism are the true embodiments of Socialism! Workers of the world order now and receive a red flag for just $9.99! /s
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:54 pm

New Avalon wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Look, I don't know what you think Socialism is, but you clearly have a pretty warped idea of what it is if you think being a developed nation makes you Socialist. That's the most idiotic claim I've heard in a while, and I've heard a lot of idiotic claims.

Socialism is the good things in Western societies :D


Yeah, no. That's not how it works.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:56 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. No, several have been proven to work, most of them being mixed systems between Capitalism and Socialism.
2. Obviously you don't or else you wouldn't have posted that shitty meme to begin with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
3. As someone who actually understand economic systems and their history, watching you act as if you know the history of those history of those systems is funny. Keep it up, I need some afternoon entertainment.


1. Look, I don't know what you think Socialism is, but you clearly have a pretty warped idea of what it is if you think being a developed nation makes you Socialist. 2. That's the most idiotic claim I've heard in a while, and I've heard a lot of idiotic claims.

1. Which means that you obviously have read or studied the history of Socialism. Again, thank you for bringing me entertainment by not understanding what you're talking about.
2. And yet you've brought no evidence to contradict me. Good for you. Now, if you actually did know what you're talking about, then you'd know that early Socialism called for universal suffrage, worker/union rights, etc... around the times of the 1st Industrial and French Revolutions, and seeing as how all developed nations have at least a mixed system, universal suffrage, unions, etc... then it's undeniable that early Socialism did have an effect on modern society.

So yet again, congrats, you live in a early Socialist's desired state. They got what they wanted, and to deny that fact is to deny history and our modern state.
Last edited by New haven america on Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gig em Aggies
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Postby Gig em Aggies » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:58 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
New Avalon wrote:this

True Socialism© has never been tried.


Nice meme.

Gig em Aggies wrote:It kind of sounds like that what the socialist in the US Congress want for Americans.


There are no Socialists in Congress. Go fearmonger somewhere else, please.

Sen B Sanders, Alexandria Cortez so yes there are socialists in the US Congress.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:01 pm

New haven america wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
1. Look, I don't know what you think Socialism is, but you clearly have a pretty warped idea of what it is if you think being a developed nation makes you Socialist. 2. That's the most idiotic claim I've heard in a while, and I've heard a lot of idiotic claims.

1. Which means that you obviously have read or studied the history of Socialism. Again, thank you for bringing me entertainment by not understanding what you're talking about.
2. And yet you've brought no evidence to contradict me. Good for you. Now, if you actually did know what you're talking about, then you'd know that early Socialism called for universal suffrage, worker/union rights, etc... around the times of the 1st Industrial and French Revolutions, and seeing as how all developed nations have at least a mixed system, universal suffrage, unions, etc... then it's undeniable that early Socialism did have an effect on modern society.

So yet again, congrats, you live in a early Socialist's desired state. They got what they wanted, and to deny that fact is to deny history.


Fucking lol. Apparently Liberalism is now "Early Socialism". Holy shit, dude. That's just too funny.

This besides the point that nobody was talking about "Early Socialism" because "Early Socialism" is fucking irrelevant in the 21st Century.
Last edited by Trollzyn the Infinite on Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Galactic Liberal Democracy
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Postby The Galactic Liberal Democracy » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:02 pm

Gig em Aggies wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

It kind of sounds like that what the socialist in the US Congress want for Americans.

No. The so called 'socialists' are capitalists trying the be cool or something. There are many kinds of socialism, but the Democrats aren't any of them. Yes, a more true form of socialism hasn't been tried, but the evil lies in the beliefs about freedom. Stalinism and actual democratic socialism are quite different. Blaming what Leninist states did on libertarian socialists is as dumb as blaming what fascism did on social liberals. Then again, Stalin did say that social democracy is fascism, despite there being no evidence. Holding each ideology accountable for something a different one did is foolish. I would prefer if both of you presented legitimate arguments why socialism won't work instead of repeating something you heard a random person on the internet said. It's not hard, but people seem to dislike coming up with good arguments.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:04 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. Which means that you obviously have read or studied the history of Socialism. Again, thank you for bringing me entertainment by not understanding what you're talking about.
2. And yet you've brought no evidence to contradict me. Good for you. Now, if you actually did know what you're talking about, then you'd know that early Socialism called for universal suffrage, worker/union rights, etc... around the times of the 1st Industrial and French Revolutions, and seeing as how all developed nations have at least a mixed system, universal suffrage, unions, etc... then it's undeniable that early Socialism did have an effect on modern society.

So yet again, congrats, you live in a early Socialist's desired state. They got what they wanted, and to deny that fact is to deny history.


Fucking lol. Apparently Liberalism is now "Early Socialism". Holy shit, dude. That's just too funny.

This besides the point that nobody was talking about "Early Socialism" because "Early Socialism" is fucking irrelevant in the 21st Century.


The Nazis wanted environmental protections and strong laws protecting animals.

Congrats, you live in a Nazi's desired state!

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:04 pm

Gig em Aggies wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Nice meme.



There are no Socialists in Congress. Go fearmonger somewhere else, please.

Sen B Sanders, Alexandria Cortez so yes there are socialists in the US Congress.


Social Democrats aren't Socialists, try again.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:05 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Fucking lol. Apparently Liberalism is now "Early Socialism". Holy shit, dude. That's just too funny.

This besides the point that nobody was talking about "Early Socialism" because "Early Socialism" is fucking irrelevant in the 21st Century.


The Nazis wanted environmental protections and strong laws protecting animals.

Congrats, you live in a Nazi's desired state!


Darn, looks like I gotta start hating Jews or the Gestapo will get me! :,(

/s
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:08 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. Which means that you obviously have read or studied the history of Socialism. Again, thank you for bringing me entertainment by not understanding what you're talking about.
2. And yet you've brought no evidence to contradict me. Good for you. Now, if you actually did know what you're talking about, then you'd know that early Socialism called for universal suffrage, worker/union rights, etc... around the times of the 1st Industrial and French Revolutions, and seeing as how all developed nations have at least a mixed system, universal suffrage, unions, etc... then it's undeniable that early Socialism did have an effect on modern society.

So yet again, congrats, you live in a early Socialist's desired state. They got what they wanted, and to deny that fact is to deny history.


Fucking lol. Apparently Liberalism is now "Early Socialism". Holy shit, dude. That's just too funny.

A. got it, you're incapable of making an argument
B. Fucking kek. You don't even understand what Liberalism was. Around the time of the 1st industrial and French Revolutions, Liberalism only wanted to break the then current social constraints (Being the aristocracy) and religious conformity. It did however, not really give a shit about workers and generally favored the owners/economic barons at the time, and really only wanted to give things like voting rights to property/business owning males (And some of the extremists at the time wanted to give voting rights to *gasp* all males).

But sure, pretend that you know things. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm sure that's easier than actually reading a fucking history book.
Last edited by New haven america on Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:34 pm

New haven america wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Fucking lol. Apparently Liberalism is now "Early Socialism". Holy shit, dude. That's just too funny.

A. got it, you're incapable of making an argument
B. Fucking kek. You don't even understand what Liberalism was. Around the time of the 1st industrial and French Revolutions, Liberalism only wanted to break the then current social constraints (Being the aristocracy) and religious conformity. It did however, not really give a shit about workers and generally favored the owners/economic barons at the time, and really only wanted to give things like voting rights to property/business owning males (And some of the extremists at the time wanted to give voting rights to *gasp* all males).

But sure, pretend that you know things. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm sure that's easier than actually reading a fucking history book.


Socialism is the belief that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be in the hands of the working class and not the wealthy elite; Liberalism is the belief in the promotion of civil rights and social equality.

But sure, go ahead and tell the fucking history buff he's the one who doesn't know history while claiming the First World practices Socialism while simultaneously acting as if Socialism is the only philosophy in history to endorse the concepts of universal suffrage and labor unions and that this makes any practice or endorsement of such things "Socialist" by default.

If you really feel the need to try and twist the standard definition of established ideologies to your preferred definition in order to garner a cheap victory, then I can't help but pity you.
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Far Easter Republic
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Postby Far Easter Republic » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:45 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Socialists try create Socialist state; Socialist state fails; Socialists claim it wasn't Socialist; repeat.

Like a broken record, it repeats again and again. Just turn the damn thing off already and be done with it.

Socialism feels like a paradise until the rich and the government can't pay the poor who don't work because of the free pay, then it's hell. We are seeing the aftermath of collapse in Venezuela and the early stages of collapse in France.
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Postby Erythrean Thebes » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:47 pm

New haven america wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Fucking lol. Apparently Liberalism is now "Early Socialism". Holy shit, dude. That's just too funny.

A. got it, you're incapable of making an argument
B. Fucking kek. You don't even understand what Liberalism was. Around the time of the 1st industrial and French Revolutions, Liberalism only wanted to break the then current social constraints (Being the aristocracy) and religious conformity. It did however, not really give a shit about workers and generally favored the owners/economic barons at the time, and really only wanted to give things like voting rights to property/business owning males (And some of the extremists at the time wanted to give voting rights to *gasp* all males).

But sure, pretend that you know things. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm sure that's easier than actually reading a fucking history book.

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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:50 pm

While I am generally fine with both capitalist and socialist ideas, I think that Venezuela's problems lie more towards their corruption?

Remember that when they were doing well and the oil prices were stable and good, the revenue and profits were allowed to be siphoned off and misused.

Source: https://www.cato.org/publications/devel ... -venezuela

I would talk more about both the pros and cons of capitalism and socialism (or communism, if you will), but for Venezuela, it is my standing that it was more of the corruption that got them. If they still have all of those siphoned cash as funds, I'm sure they wouldn't have collapsed.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:55 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
New haven america wrote:A. got it, you're incapable of making an argument
B. Fucking kek. You don't even understand what Liberalism was. Around the time of the 1st industrial and French Revolutions, Liberalism only wanted to break the then current social constraints (Being the aristocracy) and religious conformity. It did however, not really give a shit about workers and generally favored the owners/economic barons at the time, and really only wanted to give things like voting rights to property/business owning males (And some of the extremists at the time wanted to give voting rights to *gasp* all males).

But sure, pretend that you know things. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm sure that's easier than actually reading a fucking history book.


Socialism is the belief that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be in the hands of the working class and not the wealthy elite; Liberalism is the belief in the promotion of civil rights and social equality.

Thank you for proving to me that you don't actually know what you're talking about.

Liberalism today is actually much closer to early Socialism, while Conservatism today is actually closer to early Liberalism. But sure, pretend that ideas don't evolve over time.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:56 pm

New haven america wrote:Thank you for proving to me that you don't actually know what you're talking about.

Liberalism today is actually much closer to early Socialism


The whole "lack of socialism" thing kinda throws a massive fucking wrench in your theory pal.

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Zeganas
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Postby Zeganas » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:57 pm

Gig em Aggies wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Nice meme.



There are no Socialists in Congress. Go fearmonger somewhere else, please.

Sen B Sanders, Alexandria Cortez so yes there are socialists in the US Congress.


Bernie Sanders is not a real socialist.
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Gutulia
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Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:58 pm

So, will Maduro be deposed from the presidency or detained ?
Last edited by Gutulia on Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nord-Republikk
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Postby Nord-Republikk » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:09 pm

Nothing quite more socialist than a 95% private sector economy.
The Socialist Republic of Faerland
Færska sósíalíska lýðveldið

Government: Socialist federal parliamentary democracy
Population: 10,561,460
Location: North Atlantic/Northern Europe
Ethnic groups: 40.1% Faerish, 39.3% Anglo-Faerish, 8.4% New Frieslanders, 12.2% Other
Prime Minister: Klara Ragnarsdottir
Nominal GDP: $551.767 billion
Economic system: Market Socialism bordering on Social Democracy
Official languages: Faerish, English


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Postby Nova Colombian Confederation » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:18 pm

pls get me the fuck out of here.

EDIT: Okay, i got that out of my insides. I'll prefer Stalin's USSR instead of this, because he ordered efficiency (or else...).

I have other things to do. To those that don't know what's going on, i'll leave this comment made by someone else.
"Literally nothing, someway, somehow, this thing actually gets worse by the day. Suicide rate is going up like crazy, the media don't even want to report suicides because they think it will provoke even more suicides or shit like that, the people here tried for four full years to overthrow the government. Unfortunately, they were arrested, "disappeared", killed, hurt badly, and the opposition party practically declared themselves to be the same as the governing party, thus, people got really demoralized and stopped protesting. The economic situation is so fucking harsh on normal people that they don't even care anymore, they're just focused on surviving and trying to eat a full meal once a day.

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Erythrean Thebes wrote:Venezuela was not wealthy; what would be the point of collectivizing and pursuing autarchy when you have so little?

Not really. It basically had one of the highest standards of life quality on LatAm.
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Postby Vallermoore » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:22 pm

Capitalism and Socialism are like hot and cold water-too hot and the bath scalds you, too cold and the bath freezes you. The trick is getting just the right mix. Venezuela just ran the cold tap for far too long. Enough socialism is needed so people are not homeless or worse, without so much socialism that it kills capitalism.

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Postby Rio Cana » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:43 pm

Valentine Z wrote:While I am generally fine with both capitalist and socialist ideas, I think that Venezuela's problems lie more towards their corruption?

Remember that when they were doing well and the oil prices were stable and good, the revenue and profits were allowed to be siphoned off and misused.

Source: https://www.cato.org/publications/devel ... -venezuela

I would talk more about both the pros and cons of capitalism and socialism (or communism, if you will), but for Venezuela, it is my standing that it was more of the corruption that got them. If they still have all of those siphoned cash as funds, I'm sure they wouldn't have collapsed.


In that blue part above, you just showed what has been happening in Ven. since Independence. Yes, there were times the leadership actually was not corrupt but leaders like these were far and few between.
Last edited by Rio Cana on Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nord-Republikk » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:46 pm

Rio Cana wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:While I am generally fine with both capitalist and socialist ideas, I think that Venezuela's problems lie more towards their corruption?

Remember that when they were doing well and the oil prices were stable and good, the revenue and profits were allowed to be siphoned off and misused.

Source: https://www.cato.org/publications/devel ... -venezuela

I would talk more about both the pros and cons of capitalism and socialism (or communism, if you will), but for Venezuela, it is my standing that it was more of the corruption that got them. If they still have all of those siphoned cash as funds, I'm sure they wouldn't have collapsed.


In that blue part above, you just showed what has been happening in Ven. since Independence. Yes, there were times the leadership actually was not corrupt but leaders like these were far and few between.
It's also a matter of poor currency management and the general hazards involved with letting oil dominate your economy. The Venezuelan government was fucking horrible in economic policy, but "helping poor people and setting up workers co-ops" wasn't exactly the kicker there.
Last edited by Nord-Republikk on Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Socialist Republic of Faerland
Færska sósíalíska lýðveldið

Government: Socialist federal parliamentary democracy
Population: 10,561,460
Location: North Atlantic/Northern Europe
Ethnic groups: 40.1% Faerish, 39.3% Anglo-Faerish, 8.4% New Frieslanders, 12.2% Other
Prime Minister: Klara Ragnarsdottir
Nominal GDP: $551.767 billion
Economic system: Market Socialism bordering on Social Democracy
Official languages: Faerish, English


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Postby US-SSR » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:01 pm

New Avalon wrote:
Counterfeit trouser shortage wrote:venezuela isn't socialist

this

True Socialism© has never been tried.


If by "True Socialism" is meant control of the means of production by workers, then yes, that is a true statement. When did workers control the means of production in Russia? China? Cuba? North Korea? or Venezuela?

Democratic socialism as practiced in, say, Scandinavia, on the other hand is a roaring success on all counts. But for some reason those who run down so-called "socalism" in despotic and/or populist nations never are able to come up with a cogent critique of Scandinavian-style democratic socialism other than that taxes are high.
No quid pro quo!
Rudy who?
You're unconstitutional!
You should be impeached!

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