NationStates

100 years ago today, in a Munich hotel- Anton Drexler, Dietrich Eckart, Gottfried Feder, and Karl Harrer, first formed the German Worker's Party (DAP). Little did they know that the small party they had formed to discuss their antisemitic and nationalist ideals, would evolve into the National Socialist German Worker's Party (NSDAP) and go on to forever change Germany and the course of world history; leaving behind a legacy that remains an inspiration to some, or a cautionary tale wrought with tragedy and sorrow to this day. None of the founders would live to see the party and movement to its very end in 1945.

This is the story of National Socialism- its past, present, and potential future in whatever form it may take. A discussion or debate thread over its legacy and ramifications, good or bad. It is said to be the single greatest political movement of the 20th century besides Communism in terms of impacting our world. Given that the National Socialist movement in Germany spanned 26 years and quite a lot happened within this relatively short time frame, the full story of the NSDAP is too long and complex to post here: Its rise, its fall, its attempted revivals, and final evolution into the neo-Nazism of today.

It took 14 years for Adolf Hitler to rise to power and he had intended for his Third Reich to last for 1,000 years but it only lasted for 12, because his invasion of the Soviet Union had failed and he had aligned too many other industrialized nations against Germany.

I theorize that Nazism is seen as an inspiration for many if not most neo-Fascists because Nazi Germany for better or worse, was the most powerful and successful Fascist totalitarian state in human history in terms of sheer military power and accomplishments- even if Nazi Germany got itself vanquished in the end. Franco's Spain lasted for far longer, but Spain doesn't have the claim to fame of having conquered nearly an entire continent and more. Whilst Italy was a known weak power for the duration of its time as a Fascist state under Mussolini. It is tempting for a lot of people to think that Hitler's dreams of a German empire could've come true if World War II had gone in a different direction from different decisions being made.

People who lean towards Fascism are often impressed with the iconic SA or SS uniforms and are in awe with the classic and legendary anthem that was the Horst Wessel Lied that had fine enough lyrics and an appealing enough instrumental to influence the music for other Fascist movements the world over and the creation of variants from different countries beyond Germany.

With my thoughts out of the way, what do you think went wrong with National Socialism? Was the NSDAP evil from the beginning or was it primarily Adolf Hitler and his cohorts who hijacked the party from the founders of the ideology? Is it still even National Socialism if antisemitism is divorced from the platform but most of the other Fascist or social Darwinist elements are kept intact? Is Nazism something that can be modernized or salvaged in any way? What are your opinions on the Communist or Capitalist variations of neo-Nazism- the rumored NazBol (National Bolshevism) and NazCap (National Capitalist) movements on the internet?

Nazism is often discarded as the very worst the world of politics has to offer, but the way I see it- it wasn't the first nor will it be the last political force that did atrocities or caused a lot of damage in its wake, just look at ISIS.

In your view, is Nazism only a unique phenomenon confined to one place and era in world history or does it have potential for an indirect successor movement via the alt-right or a political party like France's Front National or Greece's Golden Dawn party?

In the best interests of complying with the rules of this website, please do not post neo-Nazi responses or glorify Adolf Hitler or the Holocaust. Thank you.

I probably would have initially supported the Nazis and Hitler, but later rejected them. For Heidegger the point he realized he no longer liked them was the Night of the Long Knives. I admire Edgar Julius Jung, so I would have felt the same way

You've gotta love it when someone feels the need to add phrases like "for better or worse" and "good or bad" to their discussion of Nazism.

2019 promises to be as alarmingly fucked up as 2018.

The NSDAP was the worst thing to happen to nationalism, fascism, and Germany.

Platypus Bureaucracy wrote:
2019 promises to be as alarmingly fucked up as 2018.

Not sure why you think it would improve.

It's almost as if humanity is flawed and prone to evil or something.

It’s a shame the party didn’t die almost immediately. I would have preferred a communist Germany to a Nazi one.

The best thing for everyone would be going back in time and bribing that art school.

Thermodolia wrote:It’s a shame the party didn’t die almost immediately. I would have preferred a communist Germany to a Nazi one.

Communist Germany you say? I mean, it isn't the entire thing, but beggars can't be choosers.

Thermodolia wrote:It’s a shame the party didn’t die almost immediately. I would have preferred a communist Germany to a Nazi one.

So there would be two communist superpowers ready and willing to take over the world and expose it to Stalin's extra tyrannical flavor of communism?

I would have preferred if Italian-style fascists or WW1 monarchists took over Germany.

Nazi uniforms and emblems are snazzy as hell, but the ideology has huge flaws, and the antisemitic conspiracy theories are not the only thing that was wrong with it. Extreme authoritarianism and xenophobia are prone to abuse even if it is not specifically antisemitic or genocidal. Hitler being an unhinged genocidal douche made the movement worse than what it would have been if, for example, Gregor Strasser was leading it -- but there are also ideological flaws that go beyond Hitler's personal dysfunctionality.

I think national socialism was a reaction to the violent october revolution in Russia and the other revolutions in Europe. It can be seen as extreme anti-communism, as it utilized the mothods of the bolsheviks (collectivism, total state control) in order to combat bolshevism. Were the NSDAP not so heavily founded by the german industry it likely would never have been so successful, but it was handed power by the industrial businessmen who feared a red revolution.

Salus Maior wrote:

Platypus Bureaucracy wrote:
2019 promises to be as alarmingly fucked up as 2018.

Not sure why you think it would improve.

It's almost as if humanity is flawed and prone to evil or something.

Out-and-proud Nazis were way less common ten years ago. I didn't expect something to change with the New Year or anything, but I think it's reasonable to hope there'll be an improvement at some point.

National Socialism is unsalvagable. It is and will always be a grotesque ideology based on genocide; it doesn't deserve another try, just like communism doesn't deserve another try.

Platypus Bureaucracy wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
Not sure why you think it would improve.

It's almost as if humanity is flawed and prone to evil or something.

Out-and-proud Nazis were way less common ten years ago. I didn't expect something to change with the New Year or anything, but I think it's reasonable to hope there'll be an improvement at some point.

They're there, I for one welcome it since we know who they are now.

Saiwania wrote:With my thoughts out of the way, what do you think went wrong with National Socialism?

(Almost) everything and anything from the beginning.

Was the NSDAP evil from the beginning or was it primarily Adolf Hitler and his cohorts who hijacked the party from the founders of the ideology?

NSDAP would never have existed without Hitler and his cohorts.

Is it still even National Socialism if antisemitism is divorced from the platform but most of the other Fascist or social Darwinist elements are kept intact?

No. Antisemitism is way too deeply embedded in the DNA of it.

Is Nazism something that can be modernized or salvaged in any way?

4chan and the alt-right have tried it.

What are your opinions on the Communist or Capitalist variations of neo-Nazism- the rumored NazBol (National Bolshevism) and NazCap (National Capitalist) movements on the internet?

A meme.

In your view, is Nazism only a unique phenomenon confined to one place and era in world history or does it have potential for an indirect successor movement via the alt-right or a political party like France's Front National or Greece's Golden Dawn party?

No, the seeds of evil were planted a while ago and grow in the internet.

This is a surprise. I thought that 2019 wouldn't be this weird yet.

Diarcesia wrote:

Platypus Bureaucracy wrote:Out-and-proud Nazis were way less common ten years ago. I didn't expect something to change with the New Year or anything, but I think it's reasonable to hope there'll be an improvement at some point.

They're there, I for one welcome it since we know who they are now.

I get the sentiment, but even assuming there's been no change in their numbers, the fact that they feel able to air their views more freely indicates that society's opposition to those views is weakening.

Platypus Bureaucracy wrote:

Diarcesia wrote:
They're there, I for one welcome it since we know who they are now.

I get the sentiment, but even assuming there's been no change in their numbers, the fact that they feel able to air their views more freely indicates that society's opposition to those views is weakening.

While it existed beforehand among some fringes, things did not go ballistic until the rise of Donald Trump.

Pity they weren't able to stop the spread of communism. They had one job.

As for the ideology, a Nazi state would've collapsed by 1950, at the latest. Anti-semitic conspiracies, while common sense, are not in themselves sufficient to constitute a roadmap for the state. Not to mention the nuttery and racism.

Platypus Bureaucracy wrote:

Diarcesia wrote:
They're there, I for one welcome it since we know who they are now.

I get the sentiment, but even assuming there's been no change in their numbers, the fact that they feel able to air their views more freely indicates that society's opposition to those views is weakening.

The neo-Nazis just think they're more popular than they really are.

NatSoc failed because it's an imperialist ideology based on eternal violence and pseudoscience. It's more of a relic of the past than a real ideology.

Thermodolia wrote:It’s a shame the party didn’t die almost immediately. I would have preferred a communist Germany to a Nazi one.

The silver lining is that the world went through totalitarianism and knows better than to blindly follow fascist leaders en mass.

Diopolis wrote:Pity they weren't able to stop the spread of communism. They had one job.

Relevant to this, nobody stopped me this morning from jaywalking.

Ah the Nazi party
The only party that could destroy the reputation of an entire ideological school of thought, kill millions, and nearly destroy the country it sought to make better

The only good thing national socialists ever did was die.

Best thing the Communists ever did was string their ilk by meat hooks.


National Socialism was a vile cancer that was thankfully cut out root from stem. So it should be. Even it's supposed accomplishments were lies, mostly by cheating on unemployment figures (Jews can't be unemployed cause they aren't people right?) and a war economy that would have collapsed in 1940 or thereabouts unless they unleashed it.

It is a uniquely worthless pseudo-philosophy, and an indelible stain that will never wash out of its adherents and practitioners. If OP and their like hope for a revival, they'll go the same way.

National socialism dragged literally every other far-right ideology into the cesspit of being forever associated with them.

Thanks for ruining it all!