NationStates

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:31 am**

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/spain-repla ... -crossings

As time passes by, I am more and more interested about the way of our world.

• Ireland legalized abortions.

• Japan is ready to accept immigrants

• The far right winger, Jair bolsonaro, took power over Brazil .

What next?

Global changes about issues like:
Immigration, abortion and the rise of new leaders.
some people call them "dictators" and some people call them "strong leaders" or "liberators".

I know only 1 thing:

The war between left and right was never so great, it is a war for a national destiny, for the entire world, the world will never look the same, we all live in a unique time!.

As about our part in this global war:
It is mostly a cyber war for us, the regular people, people share their opinions,
sometimes in extremely violent way, sometimes people go to protests, protests are strong weapon.
Freedom of speech is such strong and important human right, words are stronger than bullets.

After all, many of us live in a modern democratic world, therefore, the future is on our hands, through elections we can change everything.

This war about such topics will decide the future of our generations, the future belongs to the winning side, either it will be right wing utopia or left wing utopia,
I don't know.

If in the past wars were about territories and resources, today wars are about national destiny and about liberty or a globalistic world.

Immigration or "the great replacement", call it however you want, continues, What's your opinion about such events?:

First parts of the article:

"around 150,000 people entered the EU through irregular crossings in 2018, the lowest number in five years and far below the peak of more than a million recorded in 2015".

Even though in much smaller numbers, looks like Italy's new leader is doing a good job on keeping illegal immigrants out, Spain, however, is not, are you agree with

First parts of the article:

Spain has replaced Italy as the destination of choice for migrants crossing the Mediterranean to Europe, according to European Union estimates published on Friday.

The border and coast guard agency Frontex said around 150,000 people entered the EU through irregular crossings in 2018, the lowest number in five years and far below the peak of more than a million recorded in 2015.

Arrivals in Spain doubled to 57,000, making the route from Morocco to the Iberian Peninsula the most active in Europe and putting immigration in the spotlight in Spain ahead of a spate of elections this year.

Spain overtakes Italy as the number one destination chosen by migrants crossing the Mediterranean to Europe.

Migrants look out from the deck of the Spanish NGO Proactiva Open Arms rescue vessel, after being rescued 21 December 2018.
AAP
The number who reached Italy, which has taken measures to prevent rescued migrants landing, fell 80 percent to around 23,000, the fewest since 2012".

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:03 am**

Yeah I think we greeks have the Spaniards beat on the whole getting flooded by immigrants situation.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:06 am**

Gospel Power wrote:I know only 1 thing:

The war between left and right was never so great

laughs in 60's

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am**

Isabella and Ferdinand are spinning in their graves, I'm sure.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:11 am**

Gospel Power wrote:I know only 1 thing:

The war between left and right was never so great, it is a war for a national destiny, for the entire world, the world will never look the same, we all live in a unique time!.

Maybe in your short lifespan... This is hyperbole of the highest order.

You only need to look at the era of the '30s and '40s to see this not to be true.

Our time is not so unique. It has all happened before, it will all happen again.

The rise of the internet is what is unique, and tends to blow everything out of proportion.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:13 am**

Horde wrote:
Gospel Power wrote:I know only 1 thing:

The war between left and right was never so great, it is a war for a national destiny, for the entire world, the world will never look the same, we all live in a unique time!.

Maybe in your short lifespan... This is hyperbole of the highest order.

You only need to look at the era of the '30s and '40s to see this not to be true.

Our time is not so unique. It has all happened before, it will all happen again.

The rise of the internet is what is unique, and tends to blow everything out of proportion.

WWII wasn't fought between Left and Right, it was a shaky alliance between Left and Right to put down Fascism and Nazism.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:13 am**

Asherahan wrote:Yeah I think we greeks have the Spaniards beat on the whole getting flooded by immigrants situation.

It's always a touch and go between Greece, Italy and Spain as main entrance point to Europe. One year Italy is is the trafficker's most popular choice, the next year it's back to Greece, these days it's Spain, etc.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:22 am**

Gospel Power wrote:
I know only 1 thing:

The war between left and right was never so great

You might want to read some history. There were plenty of wars between left and right ideologies that where actually wars.

Real actual wars.

The alt right vs antifa riots are nothing compared to historical political massacres terms of body count.

This isn't a war it's two idiot groups yelling at each other both IRL and online.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:22 am**

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Horde wrote:WWII wasn't fought between Left and Right, it was a shaky alliance between Left and Right to put down Fascism and Nazism.

Not just the actual War. There was fighting in the streets between the Left and the Right on a far greater scale then (and the purpose wasn't to go viral on youtube). Radical socialists and anarchists were setting off bombs left and right -- and this would continue after the war, too, into the '70s. The Great Depression was far more impactful than the '08 recession, and gave rise to numerous far right movements, who could point to an actual communist world power as the great threat.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:23 am**

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Horde wrote:
Maybe in your short lifespan... This is hyperbole of the highest order.

You only need to look at the era of the '30s and '40s to see this not to be true.

Our time is not so unique. It has all happened before, it will all happen again.

The rise of the internet is what is unique, and tends to blow everything out of proportion.

WWII wasn't fought between Left and Right, it was a shaky alliance between Left and Right to put down Fascism and Nazism.

Yes it was. It was capitalism and communism fighting the far right of Nazism.

Center left center right and extreme left fighting extreme right.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:28 am**

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Gospel Power wrote:
I know only 1 thing:

The war between left and right was never so great

You might want to read some history. There were plenty of wars between left and right ideologies that where actually wars.

Real actual wars.

The alt right vs antifa riots are nothing compared to historical political massacres terms of body count.

This isn't a war it's two idiot groups yelling at each other both IRL and online.

Again, the Left and Right were on the same side for WWII. Night of the Long Knives was between Nazis and the Left.

The Civil War was also not between Left and Right; it was caused primarily by divisive opinions on slavery.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:29 am**

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
WWII wasn't fought between Left and Right, it was a shaky alliance between Left and Right to put down Fascism and Nazism.

Yes it was. It was capitalism and communism fighting the far right of Nazism.

Center left center right and extreme left fighting extreme right.

Capitalism is Right, Communism is Far-Left.

Nazism is not Right at all, nor is Fascism. They don't properly fit on the political spectrum.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:31 am**

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:You might want to read some history. There were plenty of wars between left and right ideologies that where actually wars.

Real actual wars.

The alt right vs antifa riots are nothing compared to historical political massacres terms of body count.

This isn't a war it's two idiot groups yelling at each other both IRL and online.

Again, the Left and Right were on the same side for WWII. Night of the Long Knives was between Nazis and the Left.

The Civil War was also not between Left and Right; it was caused primarily by divisive opinions on slavery.

Again not really. WW2 was extreme left and moderate politics vs extreme right, Night of the Long Knives was Extreme right purging anyone who didn't like them, abolition of slavery was left wing and confederacy was right wing.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:35 am**

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Yes it was. It was capitalism and communism fighting the far right of Nazism.

Center left center right and extreme left fighting extreme right.

Capitalism is Right, Communism is Far-Left.

Nazism is not Right at all, nor is Fascism. They don't properly fit on the political spectrum.

Capitalism is moderate, Communism is Far-Left, nazism is fascism. The Nazis called it a fascist state themselves. The Italian nazi party was called Republican Fascist Party.

Fascism is properly fitted on the political spectrum.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:35 am**

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Capitalism is Right, Communism is Far-Left.

Nazism is not Right at all, nor is Fascism. They don't properly fit on the political spectrum.

Hmm, I'd push back a little bit on that.

In the abstract sense, perhaps Nazism and Fascism do not fit that well into the left-right spectrum. But, practically, in terms of their real world actions and impacts, they fit squarely on the Right. They were Radical Right, not Conservative Right which we have been accustomed to seeing in more recent times

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:44 am**

Spare a moment about how this is the second panicky threat started by OP today about some country getting immigrants.

No opinion on it either way; the numbers are so small as to be pretty much inconsequential, and that trend downwards is going to keep going there as the war winds down in Syria.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:55 am**

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Capitalism is Right, Communism is Far-Left.

Nazism is not Right at all, nor is Fascism. They don't properly fit on the political spectrum.

Capitalism is moderate, Communism is Far-Left, nazism is fascism. The Nazis called it a fascist state themselves.

Fascism is properly fitted on the political spectrum.

Capitalism is definitely not moderate. I would know, I am a Capitalist.

Nazism is not Fascism, and the Nazis never claimed as such. Hitler was inspired by Mussolini but he did not seek to emulate his ideals. Fascism believed the spiritual superiority of cultures, whereas Nazism believed in the materialistic superiority of races. These are two distinct viewpoints, even if they are both forms of supremacism.

Fascism exhibits traits of both Left and Right beliefs, systems, and practices. It has origins in Socialism, of which Mussolini himself once believed in, and takes much of it's influence from Reactionaries, Conservatives, Traditionalists, Socialists, Syndicalists, and Nationalists. If it has to be placed on the spectrum then the closest description would be "extreme center", but even that is only semi-accurate. The political spectrum is too black-and-white.

Horde wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Capitalism is Right, Communism is Far-Left.

Nazism is not Right at all, nor is Fascism. They don't properly fit on the political spectrum.

Hmm, I'd push back a little bit on that.

In the abstract sense, perhaps Nazism and Fascism do not fit that well into the left-right spectrum. But, practically, in terms of their real world actions and impacts, they fit squarely on the Right. They were Radical Right, not Conservative Right which we have been accustomed to seeing in more recent times

You aren't entirely wrong, but I'd disagree. Fascism's history and beliefs are a vibrant mixture of Left and Right philosophies, and I find their proper categorization to be difficult because of this. Fascists themselves claim to be "above and beyond" the political spectrum and, to an extent, I'm inclined to agree. If Fascism constitutes the extreme/radical/far Right then there is a vast difference between Right and Far-Right when compared to Left and Far-Left.

I disagree with the assertion personally because in my mind Traditionalism is more in-line with the "Far-Right" and fits better than Fascism, is more Revolutionary than Reactionary and is inherently Futurist in it's line of thinking even if it does indeed hold some Conservative opinions.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:56 am**

Chan Island wrote:Spare a moment about how this is the second panicky threat started by OP today about some country getting immigrants.

No opinion on it either way; the numbers are so small as to be pretty much inconsequential, and that trend downwards is going to keep going there as the war winds down in Syria.

He's got us seeing immigrants in our soup!

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:10 am**

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Capitalism is moderate, Communism is Far-Left, nazism is fascism. The Nazis called it a fascist state themselves.

Fascism is properly fitted on the political spectrum.

Capitalism is definitely not moderate. I would know, I am a Capitalist.

Nazism is not Fascism, and the Nazis never claimed as such. Hitler was inspired by Mussolini but he did not seek to emulate his ideals. Fascism believed the spiritual superiority of cultures, whereas Nazism believed in the materialistic superiority of races. These are two distinct viewpoints, even if they are both forms of supremacism.

Fascism exhibits traits of both Left and Right beliefs, systems, and practices. It has origins in Socialism, of which Mussolini himself once believed in, and takes much of it's influence from Reactionaries, Conservatives, Traditionalists, Socialists, Syndicalists, and Nationalists. If it has to be placed on the spectrum then the closest description would be "extreme center", but even that is only semi-accurate. The political spectrum is too black-and-white.

Capitalism exists within moderate democracies. The posterboy of Capitalism is America. A nation founded on Liberal stances. Capitalism is moderate while Socialism is extreme.

No, Fascism is extreme right. It is authoritarian, suppressive and, undemocratic. Everything that Liberalism isn't.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:13 am**

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Capitalism is definitely not moderate. I would know, I am a Capitalist.

Nazism is not Fascism, and the Nazis never claimed as such. Hitler was inspired by Mussolini but he did not seek to emulate his ideals. Fascism believed the spiritual superiority of cultures, whereas Nazism believed in the materialistic superiority of races. These are two distinct viewpoints, even if they are both forms of supremacism.

Fascism exhibits traits of both Left and Right beliefs, systems, and practices. It has origins in Socialism, of which Mussolini himself once believed in, and takes much of it's influence from Reactionaries, Conservatives, Traditionalists, Socialists, Syndicalists, and Nationalists. If it has to be placed on the spectrum then the closest description would be "extreme center", but even that is only semi-accurate. The political spectrum is too black-and-white.

Capitalism exists within moderate democracies. The posterboy of Capitalism is America. A nation founded on Liberal stances. Capitalism is moderate while Socialism is extreme.

No, Fascism is extreme right. It is authoritarian, suppressive and, undemocratic. Everything that Liberalism isn't.

In addition, fascism concentrates power into the hands of only a few or even one individual, deliberately, in every sphere of life, which the complete antithesis as to what Socialism in theory is all about. But is perfectly in line with what a lot of conservatives and other groups on the right support.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:26 am**

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:You aren't entirely wrong, but I'd disagree. Fascism's history and beliefs are a vibrant mixture of Left and Right philosophies, and I find their proper categorization to be difficult because of this. Fascists themselves claim to be "above and beyond" the political spectrum and, to an extent, I'm inclined to agree. If Fascism constitutes the extreme/radical/far Right then there is a vast difference between Right and Far-Right when compared to Left and Far-Left.

I disagree with the assertion personally because in my mind Traditionalism is more in-line with the "Far-Right" and fits better than Fascism, is more Revolutionary than Reactionary and is inherently Futurist in it's line of thinking even if it does indeed hold some Conservative opinions.

Fascism liked to give lip-service to the idea that they were a "Third Way" and happily gobbled up talking points and ideas from the left and the right to create their own weird little Frankenstein ideology.

I fear that this discussion may be veering toward "threadjacking," so I'll just leave this interesting link if you're interested:

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/122469

It begins as a direct address to Jonah Goldberg, the modern popularizer of the idea of "Liberal Fascism" and who attempted to paint the historical fascists as being on the Left in order to discredit modern-day leftists. But you can scroll down until they begin making real-world historical comparisons and analyzes. It's really quite good.

In the end, the Left-Right spectrum may be a little outdated, at this point. There needs to be a grid that incorporates, too, tendencies toward Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism. If both the Soviet Union and Anarchism is Far Left, while both Fascism and an Absolute Monarchy are Far Right, then there is some greater perspective that needs to be worked out regarding classification. It seems with the present system that the furthest extremes of both Left and Right have way more in common with one another than they do with their own more moderate wing-mates.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:48 am**

Bloggy as fuck OP asides... it makes a lot of sense for Spain to be a major destination for immigrants. For one, it has a lot of former colonies where Spanish remains the dominant language, and relatively recent Spanish heritage is widespread. Plus, even at its worst, Spain remains very attractive socioeconomically.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:55 am**

Liriena wrote:Bloggy as fuck OP asides... it makes a lot of sense for Spain to be a major destination for immigrants. For one, it has a lot of former colonies where Spanish remains the dominant language, and relatively recent Spanish heritage is widespread. Plus, even at its worst, Spain remains very attractive socioeconomically.

But most of the migrants come from Africa (where Spain had very few colonies), and it suffered a disastrous economical crisis only a few years back and is still recovering from it (according to my dad's family).

Its geographical proximity to Africa is a likelier explanation.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:08 am**

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Its geographical proximity to Africa is a likelier explanation.

This is an important point.

From antiquity, there has been an easy flow of migration back and forth between North Africa and Spain (as well as the rest of southern Europe).

Celtic and Germanic and Phoenician peoples flowed easily across the Mediterranean, including to and from Spain. Hannibal brought his army from Carthage up through Spain. The Vandals hopped from Spain to North Africa. North African Berbers and Muslims hopped up into Spain, eventually conquering much of it. Barbary pirates openly sailed back and forth.

The Mediterranean has always been a porous border, and it will always continue to be, in the larger scale of things.

Posted: **Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:38 pm**

VOX has an electoral ceiling, so to speak, and Spain has only taken in 57,000, a number that pales in comparison to the numbers some European countries took in during the peak years of the refugee crisis. This is hardly news.

NationStates

Spain: Europe's number 1 destination for immigrants

Spain: Europe's number 1 destination for immigrants