Japan surrenders to immigration

[Ostroeuropa]

Been there, done that, you can't encourage young people to have babies while also overworking and underpaying them to the point where they can't ever move out of their parents' homes, let alone form long-term romantic relationships.

Which is why we come back to another point; you are, again, removing any incentives to improve these conditions and at best are only giving a short fix.

Bailing out the rich and the unsustainability of their model, once again. It is not a coincidence that the same Neoliberal ideology that pushes deregulation and bailouts pushes this immigration shit. It's how they keep our nations subjugated and fuck over our workers, then use their unopposed political power here to completely fuck over foreign countries too and make the people there desperate to escape.

All of that would change if people on the left would get a grip and oppose this system and the things that uphold it, including immigration.

What's better, workers in the west taking control over their countries through increasing their power in society and then using that new power to stop exploiting the third world so that they don't WANT to immigrate, or facilitating endless bullshit from Neoliberals on the basis that individual migrants are better off while millions from their countries languish in the conditions that immigration keeps in place?

[Liriena]

"Liberals like yourself"? Lmao fuck off all the way to your nazbol buds. I'm not taking that shit from a nationalist who casts immigrant workers as enemies of native workers for having the gall to escape from an impossible situation. You don't get to define other people's ideology.

Also, no. Shitting on immigrants doesn't guarantee that capital can and will be forced to make concessions. What major concessions has capital made to workers in Hungary, Italy or Poland? What concessions have been made in the United States?

They're not enemies, merely not helping.

You mean they're not helping in accordance to your very narrow, very myopic, borderline reactionary idea of what helping would be.

You know what a neat alternative would be? Something that the Argie left of the late 19th and early 20th century actually did and with relative success? Not be a dick towards immigrants, but actually help them, one way or the other, to either join the existing labour movement or organize one of their own. And for a while, it worked. It worked pretty fucking well. Socialists in particular took a more assimilationist approach, sure, but being a gigantic nationalist lump of shit wasn't on the table.

[Liriena]

It is shocking that you don't see how Labor being in higher demand would naturally increase its value.

What I don't do is take unsourced claims as inherently reliable, specially with people who have a questionable relationship with citations.

[Oil exporting People]

They're not enemies, merely not helping.

You mean they're not helping in accordance to your very narrow, very myopic, borderline reactionary idea of what helping would be.

You know what a neat alternative would be? Something that the Argie left of the late 19th and early 20th century actually did and with relative success? Not be a dick towards immigrants, but actually help them, one way or the other, to either join the existing labour movement or organize one of their own. And for a while, it worked. It worked pretty fucking well. Socialists in particular took a more assimilationist approach, sure, but being a gigantic nationalist lump of shit wasn't on the table.

You mean the same nation that essentially removed their black population by using them as a soldier caste until they all died and then imported more Spanish and Italians, essentially the same stock as the founding population?

Let's also not forget that some changes in economics and culture have changed since the 19th century.

[Hatterleigh]

I hope that Japan will not become a new Sweden, if you know what I mean.

Globalism seems to be unstoppable, it strikes everywhere, what can I say? children are our future., I hope for the best for Japan, that those immigrants will help Japan and not harm the Japanese people peaceful lives.
What's your opinion about the matter?.

So you hope that Japan doesn't become successful and happy like Sweden? Or have you been reading the YT comments that say that Sweden is a sort of hell on earth beacuse of the ebil muslim refugees?

Also:
>ebil globalism

wut?


Japan will be fine. They need a population boost.

Sweden is successful and happy for reasons that have nothing to do with immigration. And Sweden is still like 95% white lol. Just pumping Japan full of indonesians or indians or south asians will do nothing if not make worse the underlying causes of Japan's population issues. Japan has a very high suicide rate, one of the highest in the world. Overworking is a problem in japan too, so much so that they have a word for death by overworking. 43% of Japanese people aged 18-34 are yet to lose their virginity, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but considering that Japan isn't super religious it points to Japanese people not going out on dates at all. Also, what if Japan isn't fine? Japan is surrounded by the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 8th most populous countries on earth; China, India, Indonesia, and Bangladesh. And if Japan's birthrates continue to decline, only a small amount of migrants can change Japan drastically. Japan isn't doing this because they want to, it's because they have no other choice.

[Ostroeuropa]

They're not enemies, merely not helping.

You mean they're not helping in accordance to your very narrow, very myopic, borderline reactionary idea of what helping would be.

You know what a neat alternative would be? Something that the Argie left of the late 19th and early 20th century actually did and with relative success? Not be a dick towards immigrants, but actually help them, one way or the other, to either join the existing labour movement or organize one of their own. And for a while, it worked. It worked pretty fucking well. Socialists in particular took a more assimilationist approach, sure, but being a gigantic nationalist lump of shit wasn't on the table.

Let's not pretend the mass migration with assimilation conditions of colonial societies and immigration are something that can be replicated without a Genocide or space colonization, thanks. That's the kind of shit the neoliberals in the US pull when they say "This country was built on immigration".

No more than an alternative universe Nazi Germany Eastern Europe is "Built on immigration" mate.

[Liriena]

You mean they're not helping in accordance to your very narrow, very myopic, borderline reactionary idea of what helping would be.

You know what a neat alternative would be? Something that the Argie left of the late 19th and early 20th century actually did and with relative success? Not be a dick towards immigrants, but actually help them, one way or the other, to either join the existing labour movement or organize one of their own. And for a while, it worked. It worked pretty fucking well. Socialists in particular took a more assimilationist approach, sure, but being a gigantic nationalist lump of shit wasn't on the table.

Let's not pretend the mass migration with assimilation conditions of colonial societies and immigration are something that can be replicated without a Genocide or space colonization, thanks.

So you think the left actively trying to integrate immigrants into the labour movements in your countries is too far fetched? Why do you have so little faith in your labour movements' capacity to incorporate non-natives?

[Hatterleigh]

About time. No advanced industrialized economy can prosper for long without help from immigrants. Nations that bar out immigration out of misguided policy, ignorance or fear will feel the consequences.

Why? A majority of developed nations today are and were ethnically homogenous when they developed.

[Ostroeuropa]

Let's not pretend the mass migration with assimilation conditions of colonial societies and immigration are something that can be replicated without a Genocide or space colonization, thanks.

So you think the left actively trying to integrate immigrants into the labour movements in your countries is too far fetched? Why do you have so little faith in your labour movements' capacity to incorporate non-natives?

No, I think they can, I just don't think it's a viable long term approach because it means undercutting the value of labor and we'd be better served taking an alternate route. Let's cut to the chase.

If a major world power went socialist and anti-immigration, would workers the world over be better off than if they remained neoliberal and pro-immigration?

Yes or no.

[Liriena]

Been there, done that, you can't encourage young people to have babies while also overworking and underpaying them to the point where they can't ever move out of their parents' homes, let alone form long-term romantic relationships.

Which is why we come back to another point; you are, again, removing any incentives to improve these conditions and at best are only giving a short fix.

You are acting as if it's one of the other: support immigrants' rights or support labour rights. That's not a real dichotomy. I can and so support doing both - opening the borders to immigration and improving the work and living conditions of young Japanese people. Even if they don't both occur simultaneously, I can still support the one that happens first.

[Reformed Roman Imperium]

You mean they're not helping in accordance to your very narrow, very myopic, borderline reactionary idea of what helping would be.

You know what a neat alternative would be? Something that the Argie left of the late 19th and early 20th century actually did and with relative success? Not be a dick towards immigrants, but actually help them, one way or the other, to either join the existing labour movement or organize one of their own. And for a while, it worked. It worked pretty fucking well. Socialists in particular took a more assimilationist approach, sure, but being a gigantic nationalist lump of shit wasn't on the table.

Let's not pretend the mass migration with assimilation conditions of colonial societies and immigration are something that can be replicated without a Genocide or space colonization, thanks. That's the kind of shit the neoliberals in the US pull when they say "This country was built on immigration".

No more than an alternative universe Nazi Germany Eastern Europe is "Built on immigration" mate.

Well, the majority of Americans are of white-european descent... a group of people who didn't live in America centuries ago, so when people say that this nation was build by immigrants: It does hold some water to it.

[Napkiraly]

You mean they're not helping in accordance to your very narrow, very myopic, borderline reactionary idea of what helping would be.

You know what a neat alternative would be? Something that the Argie left of the late 19th and early 20th century actually did and with relative success? Not be a dick towards immigrants, but actually help them, one way or the other, to either join the existing labour movement or organize one of their own. And for a while, it worked. It worked pretty fucking well. Socialists in particular took a more assimilationist approach, sure, but being a gigantic nationalist lump of shit wasn't on the table.

You mean the same nation that essentially removed their black population by using them as a soldier caste until they all died and then imported more Spanish and Italians, essentially the same stock as the founding population?

Let's also not forget that some changes in economics and culture have changed since the 19th century.

Let's not forget what they did to the aboriginal inhabitants either. *cough* Conquest of the Desert *cough*

[Liriena]

So you think the left actively trying to integrate immigrants into the labour movements in your countries is too far fetched? Why do you have so little faith in your labour movements' capacity to incorporate non-natives?

No, I think they can, I just don't think it's a viable long term approach because it means undercutting the value of labor and we'd be better served taking an alternate route.

I strongly disagree... and I still think your hot take can be added to the pile of reasons why I'm increasingly skeptic of your supposed leftism.

[Infected Mushroom]

Let's not pretend the mass migration with assimilation conditions of colonial societies and immigration are something that can be replicated without a Genocide or space colonization, thanks.

So you think the left actively trying to integrate immigrants into the labour movements in your countries is too far fetched? Why do you have so little faith in your labour movements' capacity to incorporate non-natives?

I believe the argument advanced is that the VERY NOTION of the non-natives being allowed to enter (at all)... drives down the wages of the working class, empowers the elites (to continue exploiting the entire world), and gives the elites more space and time to consolidate (since the newcomers will be "satisfied" for a while with the first world conditions because they are still better than the more horrendous levels back home)

if you're looking to assimilate them, you're already playing on a back footing

your movement is more powerful without them entering at all

[Sciongrad]

Japan was stupid. They fucked themselves over on this one. They should have allowed immigration but assimilated all of them. Now they can’t do jackshit

It is all the countries which allowed in mass immigration from the developing world which were stupid. Japan made the wiser choice in avoiding that altogether. Japan can do what I suggest, which is to do nothing. The unfilled jobs can be eliminated instead of staying unfulfilled. Automation can be relied upon more in Japan's case. Japan is after all, at the forefront of technology and science.

Imagine knowing this little about economics.

[Ostroeuropa]

Which is why we come back to another point; you are, again, removing any incentives to improve these conditions and at best are only giving a short fix.

You are acting as if it's one of the other: support immigrants' rights or support labour rights. That's not a real dichotomy. I can and so support doing both - opening the borders to immigration and improving the work and living conditions of young Japanese people. Even if they don't both occur simultaneously, I can still support the one that happens first.

Immigration is a symptom of capitalism. There is no need to support it and the problems it causes. Helping the young japanese first and foremost will increase the power of the workers and their share of influence. Then their country, and ours in the west, can stop fucking over the third world so much.

You are supporting something that makes the overall system more difficult to change.

[Liriena]

You mean the same nation that essentially removed their black population by using them as a soldier caste until they all died and then imported more Spanish and Italians, essentially the same stock as the founding population?

Let's also not forget that some changes in economics and culture have changed since the 19th century.

Let's not forget what they did to the aboriginal inhabitants either. *cough* Conquest of the Desert *cough*

Yes, the dominant classes of Argentine society have always been massive murderous white assholes and a constant reminder that the Inca Empire should be restored. That doesn't change the fact that, at the time, different left-wing movements in the country found ways to integrate into the labour movement communities that, at the time, were often perceived as dangerously foreign.

[Reikoku]

No, I think they can, I just don't think it's a viable long term approach because it means undercutting the value of labor and we'd be better served taking an alternate route.

I strongly disagree... and I still think your hot take can be added to the pile of reasons why I'm increasingly skeptic of your supposed leftism.

You mean the self-proclaimed syndicalist who advocates "nationalist class collaborationism" against "Marxist internationalism," and tries to convince socialists to support social conservatism might have ulterior motives?

[Ostroeuropa]

No, I think they can, I just don't think it's a viable long term approach because it means undercutting the value of labor and we'd be better served taking an alternate route.

I strongly disagree... and I still think your hot take can be added to the pile of reasons why I'm increasingly skeptic of your supposed leftism.

Right, i'll try this once more.

Do you think a major nation becoming socialist and anti-capitalist would have more of a positive effect on the workers of the world than them remaining capitalist and allowing immigrants would?

Let's suppose they're everything you say they are even. Racist, wanting their borders closed because ew blacks, even all of that. I'll grant it.

But they still support workers internationally and go to bat for them.

Is that preferable?

[Hatterleigh]

It is all the countries which allowed in mass immigration from the developing world which were stupid. Japan made the wiser choice in avoiding that altogether. Japan can do what I suggest, which is to do nothing. The unfilled jobs can be eliminated instead of staying unfulfilled. Automation can be relied upon more in Japan's case. Japan is after all, at the forefront of technology and science.

Imagine knowing this little about economics.

That's pretty rude and condescending. Perhaps u should be a bit kinder to people huh?

[Oil exporting People]

Which is why we come back to another point; you are, again, removing any incentives to improve these conditions and at best are only giving a short fix.

You are acting as if it's one of the other: support immigrants' rights or support labour rights. That's not a real dichotomy. I can and so support doing both - opening the borders to immigration and improving the work and living conditions of young Japanese people. Even if they don't both occur simultaneously, I can still support the one that happens first.

Because it is a dichotomy because we're talking about explicitly economic immigration. If you're importing people to fill poor quality jobs you can't get natives to fill, there is no incentive to get employers to improve conditions. Your own personal feelings on the matter do not remove basic economic facts.

[Liriena]

So you think the left actively trying to integrate immigrants into the labour movements in your countries is too far fetched? Why do you have so little faith in your labour movements' capacity to incorporate non-natives?

I believe the argument advanced is that the VERY NOTION of the non-natives being allowed to enter (at all)... drives down the wages of the working class, empowers the elites (to continue exploiting the entire world), and gives the elites more space and time to consolidate (since the newcomers will be "satisfied" for a while with the first world conditions because they are still better than the more horrendous levels back home)

if you're looking to assimilate them, you're already playing on a back footing

your movement is more powerful without them entering at all

More powerful immediately, yes, but a lot less humane than it should be. I can see the raw, cynical pragmatism of it, but I also wipe my ass with it.

[Thysu]

That's too bad that Japan is having problems with population reproduction, to the point that they'll need to take in foreigners to get their desired workforce.

[Sciongrad]

I strongly disagree... and I still think your hot take can be added to the pile of reasons why I'm increasingly skeptic of your supposed leftism.

Right, i'll try this once more.

Do you think a major nation becoming socialist and anti-capitalist would have more of a positive effect on the workers of the world than them remaining capitalist and allowing immigrants would?

Why are these the options? You haven't explained why a socialist state can't also embrace open borders. Until you establish why we should accept these as our two options, this is a strawman.

[Ostroeuropa]

I believe the argument advanced is that the VERY NOTION of the non-natives being allowed to enter (at all)... drives down the wages of the working class, empowers the elites (to continue exploiting the entire world), and gives the elites more space and time to consolidate (since the newcomers will be "satisfied" for a while with the first world conditions because they are still better than the more horrendous levels back home)

if you're looking to assimilate them, you're already playing on a back footing

your movement is more powerful without them entering at all

More powerful immediately, yes, but a lot less humane than it should be. I can see the raw, cynical pragmatism of it, but I also wipe my ass with it.

It is not humane to up and decide to arm hostage takers and let them take over more buildings in exchange for the release of one hostage. You are too Individualist. You weep for the migrant that wouldn't be allowed to come here to better their life and ignore the misery they are escaping from is a direct consequence of capitalist power here at home that you are helping keep in place by supporting immigration.

You pretend we're focused on the short term, it seems to me you're the one who is, the immediate assistance of a handful of foreign workers rather than the eventual liberation of all.