How can you not be christian?

[Gesford]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?

However, one could say something cannot be created out of nothing, with other words the universe doesn't exist, in other words we do not exist and everything you see isn't real, even seeing isn't real. Even this post is not real.

I would still like to know the OP's response to this >>

For everything there must be a cause, unless that something is eternal. And the universe is not eternal,

Proof?
Why is there fire?

not is the "big bang", or the gases, or the "heat that caused the big bang". Everything that is matter can never be eternal unless the supernatural exists.

Proof?

What does science claim to be eternal?

Nothing because in science, there is no soul.

Yet for everything there must be a cause, unless there's something that's eternal. And for the universe to have come into existence, there must have been something eternal.

Ah yes, one of the most classic cosmological arguments for the existence of God. Unfortunately it still makes unwarranted assumptions about the nature of the circumstances before or beyond the universe solely based on a cause and effect rule we have only seen applied within the universe. A brutely existing universe (one that, for no reason, simply popped into existence) could still be a possibility.

Or the response of anyone who has come out of the woodwork to support the OP.

Actually, that doesn't help the reconciliation at all. Omniscience is an "all or nothing" proposition. Either god is omniscient and neither we nor god has free will or, god is not omniscient and the existence of free will is possible (but, not guaranteed.)

I wrote a paper on this very subject about a year ago, and I agree with you. Unfortunately most opponents in favor of theodicy argue that to go down this road is to misinterpret the meaning of the terms "omniscient", "omnibenevolent", or "omnipotent". I cannot fathom where they get their alternative definitions from, but hey, there you go.

We appear to be going in circles. Again. So, in an effort to break the cycle, I again ask anyone using the aforementioned cosmological argument for God's existence:

Why it is necessary to adhere to standards of cause-and-effect when dealing with environments where such assumptions are baseless?

Why is it so hard to accept a brutely created universe (one with no cause, just popped into existence)?

[Treznor]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?

However, one could say something cannot be created out of nothing, with other words the universe doesn't exist, in other words we do not exist and everything you see isn't real, even seeing isn't real. Even this post is not real.

Unfortunately, your theory isn't new. It is, again, the God of the Gaps argument and it's pretty weak sauce. Not everything has to have a cause or beginning. From our limited understanding of time and the beginning of the Universe, time didn't exist until the initial spark of the Big Bang (or whatever). And even if there were some sort of God, entity or force that preceded the universe, where did that come from? As you say, one could keep asking those questions infinitely. Until we have better understanding of the process, if we ever have better understanding, it's just as logical to posit that there was no driving force behind the beginning of the Universe. For all practical purposes, it's true.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?

However, one could say something cannot be created out of nothing, with other words the universe doesn't exist, in other words we do not exist and everything you see isn't real, even seeing isn't real. Even this post is not real.

That's not what the big bang says at all.

Also, on the whole "You can't get something for nothing." truism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5l0762-mdw

Yes, I'm a whore. I also don't like repeating arguments I've made over and over again.

[Kington Langley]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?

However, one could say something cannot be created out of nothing, with other words the universe doesn't exist, in other words we do not exist and everything you see isn't real, even seeing isn't real. Even this post is not real.

Unfortunately, your theory isn't new. It is, again, the God of the Gaps argument and it's pretty weak sauce. Not everything has to have a cause or beginning. From our limited understanding of time and the beginning of the Universe, time didn't exist until the initial spark of the Big Bang (or whatever). And even if there were some sort of God, entity or force that preceded the universe, where did that come from? As you say, one could keep asking those questions infinitely. Until we have better understanding of the process, if we ever have better understanding, it's just as logical to posit that there was no driving force behind the beginning of the Universe. For all practical purposes, it's true.

I'm athiest but you can't rule out the possibility of the big bang being the result of god playing with matches

[Treznor]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?

However, one could say something cannot be created out of nothing, with other words the universe doesn't exist, in other words we do not exist and everything you see isn't real, even seeing isn't real. Even this post is not real.

Unfortunately, your theory isn't new. It is, again, the God of the Gaps argument and it's pretty weak sauce. Not everything has to have a cause or beginning. From our limited understanding of time and the beginning of the Universe, time didn't exist until the initial spark of the Big Bang (or whatever). And even if there were some sort of God, entity or force that preceded the universe, where did that come from? As you say, one could keep asking those questions infinitely. Until we have better understanding of the process, if we ever have better understanding, it's just as logical to posit that there was no driving force behind the beginning of the Universe. For all practical purposes, it's true.

I'm athiest but you can't rule out the possibility of the big bang being the result of god playing with matches

No, you can't absolutely rule it out, but you can logically. It makes just as much sense that the Universe spontaneously erupted as it does God causing it, and God adds unnecessary complications to the theory. At that point, Occam's Razor is your friend.

[Jalanat]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?

However, one could say something cannot be created out of nothing, with other words the universe doesn't exist, in other words we do not exist and everything you see isn't real, even seeing isn't real. Even this post is not real.

That's not what the big bang says at all.

Also, on the whole "You can't get something for nothing." truism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5l0762-mdw

Yes, I'm a whore. I also don't like repeating arguments I've made over and over again.

my fault, I TL;DR'd the thread.

[Gesford]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?

However, one could say something cannot be created out of nothing, with other words the universe doesn't exist, in other words we do not exist and everything you see isn't real, even seeing isn't real. Even this post is not real.

Unfortunately, your theory isn't new. It is, again, the God of the Gaps argument and it's pretty weak sauce. Not everything has to have a cause or beginning. From our limited understanding of time and the beginning of the Universe, time didn't exist until the initial spark of the Big Bang (or whatever). And even if there were some sort of God, entity or force that preceded the universe, where did that come from? As you say, one could keep asking those questions infinitely. Until we have better understanding of the process, if we ever have better understanding, it's just as logical to posit that there was no driving force behind the beginning of the Universe. For all practical purposes, it's true.

I'm athiest but you can't rule out the possibility of the big bang being the result of god playing with matches

No, you can't absolutely rule it out, but you can logically. It makes just as much sense that the Universe spontaneously erupted as it does God causing it, and God adds unnecessary complications to the theory. At that point, Occam's Razor is your friend.

Sorry to nitpick, but Occam's razor is not a logical tool. It is a heuristic, and it is useless for establishing the logical validity of an argument or beliefs that fall form those arguments. It is certainly helpful, but only inasmuch as we can be sure our experiences of the world match the question being considered. I do not particularly like Occam's razor when it is applied for or against arguments for the existence of God exactly because we generally do not have enough experience of the parts of the question to make that kind of heuristic useful. A truly conclusive answer will not need it anyway. Again, sorry to nitpick, I've just been burned in my experiences with Occam's razor and the philosophy of mind.

EDIT: Ah, I think the problem lies in what I saw as a disconnect between your use of the words "logical" and "absolute". Again, probably my fault, I'm used to only using the "refutation by logic" in the sense of "absolute refutation based on a logically valid argument".

[Phenia]

My question is how can you not be christian. People who are athiest, I believe say there is no god as an excuse for them to get away wiht something they know is a sin.

I do not believe there is a god, and that has nothing to do with "sin" as I also believe there are none of the gods which never bothered with the idea of "sin" in the first place. I don't believe in sin any more than I believe in God.

[Treznor]

No, you can't absolutely rule it out, but you can logically. It makes just as much sense that the Universe spontaneously erupted as it does God causing it, and God adds unnecessary complications to the theory. At that point, Occam's Razor is your friend.

Sorry to nitpick, but Occam's razor is not a logical tool. It is a heuristic, and it is useless for establishing the logical validity of an argument or beliefs that fall form those arguments. It is certainly helpful, but only inasmuch as we can be sure our experiences of the world match the question being considered. I do not particularly like Occam's razor when it is applied for or against arguments for the existence of God exactly because we generally do not have enough experience of the parts of the question to make that kind of heuristic useful. A truly conclusive answer will not need it anyway. Again, sorry to nitpick, I've just been burned in my experiences with Occam's razor and the philosophy of mind.

EDIT: Ah, I think the problem lies in what I saw as a disconnect between your use of the words "logical" and "absolute". Again, probably my fault, I'm used to only using the "refutation by logic" in the sense of "absolute refutation based on a logically valid argument".

Correct, I am not making the claim that Occam's Razor absolutely refutes this logic, but that it makes the requirement of God jumpstarting the Universe unnecessary. I had said previously that I'm agnostic about such things, since at this point it's impossible to know for sure.

[Risottia]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?
...

Actually, this argument was already known to the Aquinas. It's called regressio ad infinitum, and Kant debunked it in the Critique of Pure Reason (17th antinomy iirc) as it's equivalent to any other ontological argument.

Holy shit, doesn't people study philosophy in high school anymore?

[Treznor]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?
...

Actually, this argument was already known to the Aquinas. It's called regressio ad infinitum, and Kant debunked it in the Critique of Pure Reason (17th antinomy iirc) as it's equivalent to any other ontological argument.

Holy shit, doesn't people study philosophy in high school anymore?

Philosophy wasn't available in my high school twenty years ago. So no, probably not.

[The shee race]

Becuse there is no evadents.

[New Caldaris]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?
...

Actually, this argument was already known to the Aquinas. It's called regressio ad infinitum, and Kant debunked it in the Critique of Pure Reason (17th antinomy iirc) as it's equivalent to any other ontological argument.

Holy shit, doesn't people study philosophy in high school anymore?

Sorry we live in america our edumacation izn't very well.

[Objectivist Aynrandia]

did you ever stop to think that the kids that starve and die or die of cancer and other diseases are going to a better place rather than continueing to live on this horrible earth. Also god isnt to blame for natural disastors or diseas thats the work of satan. And your probably thinking well why would jesus allow a christian to be killed well think about it that christian who is going to get killed is going to a better place. Also satan has free roam on earth thats wh ythings are the way they are since adam and ever bit the apple they allowed satan to have acess to the world. But if they wouldnt have bitten the apple then earht would be like heaven.

Well, why create this horrible earth in the first place? Why not put people straight into heaven. God could always kick out any individuals that rebel, just like he did with Satan and his cadre of fallen angels. If god loves us then why allow Satan to run amok on earth. Why not make him stay in hell and leave us alone? Anything that Adam did, certainly God could undo. He's supposed to be all powerful right?

Like I said, don't get me started on original sin. I can't be held responsible for what two people did a LONG time ago.

Because of this, I have serious trust issues with God. Even if I believe that the scriptures are the word of God, how can I know that what it says is true? When I die, I almost expect God to tell me, "Dude, I was just messing with all of you people, there isn't any heaven. Everyone goes to hell. Have a nice day!"

[New Hayesalia]

More evilness from the most "loving and tolerant religion" in the world!

He executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)

The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel. (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron that in all future generations, his descendants who have physical defects will not qualify to offer food to their God. No one who has a defect may come near to me, whether he is blind or lame, stunted or deformed, or has a broken foot or hand, or has a humped back or is a dwarf, or has a defective eye, or has oozing sores or scabs on his skin, or has damaged testicles. Even though he is a descendant of Aaron, his physical defects disqualify him from presenting offerings to the LORD by fire. Since he has a blemish, he may not offer food to his God. However, he may eat from the food offered to God, including the holy offerings and the most holy offerings. Yet because of his physical defect, he must never go behind the inner curtain or come near the altar, for this would desecrate my holy places. I am the LORD who makes them holy." (Leviticus 21:16-23 NLT)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:33-35 NAB)

(Jesus Speaking) If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can not be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 NAB)

Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42 NAB)

And David and his men went up, and made a raid upon the Geshurites, and the Girzites, and the Amalekites; for those `nations' were the inhabitants of the land, who were of old, as thou goest to Shur, even unto the land of Egypt. And David smote the land, and saved neither man nor woman alive, and took away the sheep, and the oxen, and the asses, and the camels, and the apparel; and he returned, and came to Achish. And Achish said, Against whom have ye made a raid to-day? And David said, Against the South of Judah, and against the South of the Jerahmeelites, and against the South of the Kenites. And David saved neither man nor woman alive, to bring them to Gath, saying, Lest they should tell of us, saying, So did David, and so hath been his manner all the while he hath dwelt in the country of the Philistines. (1 Samuel 27:8-11 ASV)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.



Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

But if you do not listen to me and refuse to keep the Sabbath holy, and if on the Sabbath day you bring loads of merchandise through the gates of Jerusalem just as on other days, then I will set fire to these gates. The fire will spread to the palaces, and no one will be able to put out the roaring flames. (Jeremiah 17:27 NLT)

If two Israelite men are fighting and the wife of one tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the testicles of the other man, her hand must be cut off without pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NLT)

On the journey, when Moses and his family had stopped for the night, the LORD confronted Moses and was about to kill him. But Zipporah, his wife, took a flint knife and circumcised her son. She threw the foreskin at Moses' feet and said, "What a blood-smeared bridegroom you are to me!" (When she called Moses a "blood-smeared bridegroom," she was referring to the circumcision.) After that, the LORD left him alone. (Exodus 4:24-26 NLT)

You wives will submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord. For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything. (Ephesians 5:22-24 NLT)

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT) Well-know, celebrated, and fully and knowingly cruel.

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Now, our God, what shall we say after this? For we have forsaken Your commandments, which You have commanded by Your servants the prophets, saying, "The land which you are entering to possess is an unclean land with the uncleanness of the peoples of the lands, with their abominations which have filled it from end to end and with their impurity. So now do not give your daughters to their sons nor take their daughters to your sons, and never seek their peace or their prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever." (Ezra 9:10-12 NAS)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

You shall not delay the offering of your harvest and your press. You shall give me the first born of your sons. You must do the same for your oxen and your sheep. (Exodus 22:28-29 NAB)
God = Rumpelstiltskin.

Give no woman power over you to trample upon your dignity. (Sirach 9:2 NAB)

Who struck down the firstborn of Egypt, God's love endures forever (Psalm 136:10 NAB)

For since with this city, which is called by my name, I begin to inflict evil, how can you possibly be spared? You shall not be spared! I will call down the sword upon all who inhabit the earth, says the Lord of hosts. (Jeremiah 25:29 NAB)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Many years later, when Moses had grown up, he went out to visit his people, the Israelites, and he saw how hard they were forced to work. During his visit, he saw an Egyptian beating one of the Hebrew slaves. After looking around to make sure no one was watching, Moses killed the Egyptian and buried him in the sand. (Exodus 2:11-12 NLT)

So it is with a woman who leaves her husband and presents him with an heir by another man. For first of all, she has disobeyed the law of the Most High; second, she has committed an offense against her husband; and third, through her fornication she has committed adultery and brought forth children by another man. She herself will be brought before the assembly, and her punishment will extend to her children. Her children will not take root, and her branches will not bear fruit. (Sirach 23:22-25 NRSV) This means that illegitimate children are to be considered sub-human.

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If you refuse to listen to the LORD your God and to obey the commands and laws he has given you, all these curses will pursue and overtake you until you are destroyed. These horrors will serve as a sign and warning among you and your descendants forever. Because you have not served the LORD your God with joy and enthusiasm for the abundant benefits you have received, you will serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you. You will be left hungry, thirsty, naked, and lacking in everything. They will oppress you harshly until you are destroyed. "The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like an eagle. It is a nation whose language you do not understand, a fierce and heartless nation that shows no respect for the old and no pity for the young. Its armies will devour your livestock and crops, and you will starve to death. They will leave you no grain, new wine, olive oil, calves, or lambs, bringing about your destruction. They will lay siege to your cities until all the fortified walls in your land – the walls you trusted to protect you – are knocked down. They will attack all the towns in the land the LORD your God has given you. The siege will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you. The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children. He will refuse to give them a share of the flesh he is devouring – the flesh of one of his own children – because he has nothing else to eat during the siege that your enemy will inflict on all your towns. The most tender and delicate woman among you – so delicate she would not so much as touch her feet to the ground – will be cruel to the husband she loves and to her own son or daughter. She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns. (Deuteronomy 28:45-57 NLT)

Plenty more where that came from. I do the Koran too!

[DaWoad]

1) A universe that does not contain a god is logically possible.

ergo:

2) Reason/logic alone is sufficient to prove the existence of god.

ergo:

3) The contingency argument for god fails, as god him/her/itself is contigent.

thus:

4) God COULD exist, but doesn't exist NECESSARILY, so evidence is necessary to believe in god.

5) Within perfectly established physics, there exist ways for everything to have come about without the intervention of any intelligence.

6) These ways are ontologically simpler than "god did it!"

7) These ways are also more probable, as any being capable of designing a universe must be far, far more complex in terms of entropy than any of the currently available physical explanations.

Thus:

If complex things require a designer, then god needs more of an explanation than the universe. Who designed god? And then who designed the god that designed god? Ad infinitum.

9) There is no empirical evidence inside the universe which points to any god.

10) Even if god were shown to exist, that doesn't make Christianity automatically true.

Conclusion: I have no good reason to be Christian.

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?

However, one could say something cannot be created out of nothing, with other words the universe doesn't exist, in other words we do not exist and everything you see isn't real, even seeing isn't real. Even this post is not real.

Except string theory provides a number of ways in which what we perceive as "nothing" could easily become something

[DaWoad]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?
...

Actually, this argument was already known to the Aquinas. It's called regressio ad infinitum, and Kant debunked it in the Critique of Pure Reason (17th antinomy iirc) as it's equivalent to any other ontological argument.

Holy shit, doesn't people study philosophy in high school anymore?

I didn't get it until university and that was just last year as an elective :\

[Cresthallow]

I was born with a terminal illness. I lived my entire life doctors knowing I'll die, pain in most days, and I survived through cutting edge surgery. I lost my best friend at the age of twelve. And my other friend at the age of fourteen. I stabalized for my age 15-18 years, but when I was 17 my best friend passed away. When I was nineteen I had another surgery and lost my ability to swallow for three months.

What kind of all loving god would forsake me in this way?

[Palaam]

One with a serious case of Schadenfreude.

[Fabricati Diem]

I thought up of a little theory,

We know we all exist right? What if someone asks where we come from? Someone would say that we come from the apes, where did the apes come from? etc. etc. untill you get to, where did the big bang come from? Theory is that 2 molecules collided, good, where did those 2 molecules come from? One could keep asking those questions infinitely just like point 8, so apparently something MUST have been created out of absolutely nothing, there you have your god...the god of...science?
...

Actually, this argument was already known to the Aquinas. It's called regressio ad infinitum, and Kant debunked it in the Critique of Pure Reason (17th antinomy iirc) as it's equivalent to any other ontological argument.

Holy shit, doesn't people study philosophy in high school anymore?

High school? No. College? Yes. In fact, I took PHIL 101 last semester.
But even if you've never taken a philosophy course, it's not exactly a hard subject to learn. All you need is a copy of Plato and a Platypus Walk Into a Bar... Or, Understanding Philosophy Through Jokes.

>_>

Fo srs.

[FreeSatania]

My question is how can you not be christian. People who are athiest, I believe say there is no god as an excuse for them to get away wiht something they know is a sin. Also people say why doesnt god just show himself and my answer to that is Faith. What use what it be if god just showed himself to everyone and then everyone just switched to christian, God wants people who have faith and are loyal not people who see him and then suddenly believe. Also Athiest who dont belive in god explain to me about ghosts then? Dont say thier not real either because my dad and stepmother have both seen demons, and if you want to know about it i would be more than happy to explain.

Also people who belive Obama is the Anti-Christ, I can see this to some point because in the bible it says that the Anti-Christ will try to make peace wiht everyone and be a nice handsome smooth talker whihc obama is so yes i can see obama being the anti-christ. But i wouldnt freak out about it because if your saved then you will go to heaven. just like 2012 why freak out when you will be going to a better place thats why i think the people who freak out about it are the ones who are worried because they no about the sins they have committed.


Also all of these different religons like catholics, prodestants and judism and all the others i think are in my opinion are not needed because all you have to do is belive in god and the virgin marry and that jesus gave his sins for us, also god didnt make religon, humans made religon in thier own way that they seen fit. For example reilgon is formed like a club and then one day a member form that club doesnt like the ideas of it so then they go and make thier own club meaning religon. But really all you have to do is belive in virgin marry, jesus sacrifice and belive in god as your heavenly father and you will go to heaven.

Im not a perfect christian, no one is infact ive had my doubts but after talking wiht my Step Mom and my Dad and thinking about the miracles that have happened to me i do belive there is a god and thats called faith. So please anyone is welcome to comment but do not argue or make stupid comments or make fun of anyones religon. This is meant to be a discussion not a argument about which religon is better or calling someone stupid because of thier beliefs.

Ok, I am a Christian but actually I find this pretty funny. How can someone not be a Christian? Well obviously because they have free will. This is something we have been granted by god. 1) Atheists *choose* not to believe in god. This is a perfectly rational stance to take in lieu of concrete proof, albeit not my own. 2) You seem to neglect or are seemingly unaware of the existence of religions other than Christianity ... These ppl. do believe in god (and in some cases gods). They are also just ppl. like us who are (usually) simply trying their best to do right by god as they understand him (or her). ...even the f*cking crazy ones. 3) Religion was made by man but god was not ... I believe it's the truth that matters not which faith you profess. God will know the truth of what is in your heart. 4) Belief in jesus' sacrifice is not enough... one should sincerely try to follow the 10 commandments, remain true to the teachings of Jesus and generally try to be a good person and to do good in the world... ultimately no one is perfect however and it's through god's mercy that we may go to heaven. Simply professing faith in Christ should not be enough... but ultimately it's up to god to decide who does and does not get to go to heaven.

My 2 ct.

[Loriiea]

@New Hayesalia

It is a well known fact by Christians that God in the Old Testament was an ironfisted, bloodthirsty tyrant, eager for vengance and retribution against those who dared oppose his will or word. However, when he gave his only begotten son to the world and the New Testament comes to play, he softened up a bit.

Actually kind of comical, but once your son is hung on a cross and pierced to death, at his own vocation and willingness I might add, it would give you a change of heart as well .

[Treznor]

Ok, I am a Christian but actually I find this pretty funny. How can someone not be a Christian? Well obviously because they have free will. This is something we have been granted by god. 1) Atheists *choose* not to believe in god. This is a perfectly rational stance to take in lieu of concrete proof, albeit not my own.

Wait, what?

Not believing an an imaginary man in the sky is a choice now? Huh. I thought it was a logical conclusion that ultimately overrode my childhood programming that I was supposed to believe. I never realized I chose it.

But then again, that's me.

[FreeSatania]

Oh an the whole Obama is the anti-Christ thing. Where the hell do you ppl. get that stuff? It doesn't say that anywhere in the bible. It's a real good idea to actually read the thing before you declare the president the Antichrist. I mean I'm no fan of Obama either but he's a puppet - all presidents are. Obama is just the standard breed of fast talking politician. The world has had plenty of them before and will probably continue to have many more of them...

[Tekania]

Ok, I am a Christian but actually I find this pretty funny. How can someone not be a Christian? Well obviously because they have free will. This is something we have been granted by god. 1) Atheists *choose* not to believe in god. This is a perfectly rational stance to take in lieu of concrete proof, albeit not my own.

Wait, what?

Not believing an an imaginary man in the sky is a choice now? Huh. I thought it was a logical conclusion that ultimately overrode my childhood programming that I was supposed to believe. I never realized I chose it.

But then again, that's me.

choice (chois)
n.
1. The act of choosing; selection.
2. The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.
3. One that is chosen.
4. A number or variety from which to choose: a wide choice of styles and colors.
5. The best or most preferable part.
6. Care in choosing.
7. An alternative.

Yep, it's a choice.... Unless you're supposing someone held a gun to your head.