How can you not be christian?

[Utosi]

My question is how can you not be christian. People who are athiest, I believe say there is no god as an excuse for them to get away wiht something they know is a sin. Also people say why doesnt god just show himself and my answer to that is Faith. What use what it be if god just showed himself to everyone and then everyone just switched to christian, God wants people who have faith and are loyal not people who see him and then suddenly believe. Also Athiest who dont belive in god explain to me about ghosts then? Dont say thier not real either because my dad and stepmother have both seen demons, and if you want to know about it i would be more than happy to explain.

Also people who belive Obama is the Anti-Christ, I can see this to some point because in the bible it says that the Anti-Christ will try to make peace wiht everyone and be a nice handsome smooth talker whihc obama is so yes i can see obama being the anti-christ. But i wouldnt freak out about it because if your saved then you will go to heaven. just like 2012 why freak out when you will be going to a better place thats why i think the people who freak out about it are the ones who are worried because they no about the sins they have committed.


Also all of these different religons like catholics, prodestants and judism and all the others i think are in my opinion are not needed because all you have to do is belive in god and the virgin marry and that jesus gave his sins for us, also god didnt make religon, humans made religon in thier own way that they seen fit. For example reilgon is formed like a club and then one day a member form that club doesnt like the ideas of it so then they go and make thier own club meaning religon. But really all you have to do is belive in virgin marry, jesus sacrifice and belive in god as your heavenly father and you will go to heaven.

Im not a perfect christian, no one is infact ive had my doubts but after talking wiht my Step Mom and my Dad and thinking about the miracles that have happened to me i do belive there is a god and thats called faith. So please anyone is welcome to comment but do not argue or make stupid comments or make fun of anyones religon. This is meant to be a discussion not a argument about which religon is better or calling someone stupid because of thier beliefs.

Because of the Christian's gold (go and visit Rome). Because of their pure demagogy that makes God blush wherever it is.

Cows don't believe in God and are much better "people" than the great majority of people I know.

[Ifreann]

I sense a successful troll

[Cabra West]

[

Listen you yourself have destroyed this arguement.

1. God issued something called 'Free Will'
2. Free Will enables people to believe in whatever they want. Does God love everyone still? Yes no matter what. Does God want those people back with him? Yes, but he can't force them.

Not omnipotent after all, then?

I never was to begin with.

Oh, right.
I didn't realise you were talking about yourself when you went on about God there. Sorry.

[Namabia]

[

Listen you yourself have destroyed this arguement.

1. God issued something called 'Free Will'
2. Free Will enables people to believe in whatever they want. Does God love everyone still? Yes no matter what. Does God want those people back with him? Yes, but he can't force them.

Not omnipotent after all, then?

I never was to begin with.

Oh, right.
I didn't realise you were talking about yourself when you went on about God there. Sorry.

I wasn't talking to myself. The definition of omnipotent is,

1.almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2.having very great or unlimited authority or power.

According to the dictionary......

Am I God? Heck no. Am I almighty or have infinite power? Heck no. Do I have very great or unlimited authority? Once again heck no.

[Farnhamia]

[

Listen you yourself have destroyed this arguement.

1. God issued something called 'Free Will'
2. Free Will enables people to believe in whatever they want. Does God love everyone still? Yes no matter what. Does God want those people back with him? Yes, but he can't force them.

Not omnipotent after all, then?

I never was to begin with.

Oh, right.
I didn't realise you were talking about yourself when you went on about God there. Sorry.

I wasn't talking to myself. The definition of omnipotent is,

1.almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2.having very great or unlimited authority or power.

According to the dictionary......

Am I God? Heck no. Am I almighty or have infinite power? Heck no. Do I have very great or unlimited authority? Once again heck no.

And I believe Cabra was twitting you on your lack of proof-reading powers. See the bolded, above.

[Democraticus DCLXVI]

I don't understand why people seem to have to rationalise everything. Why ruin something as spectacular and beautiful and spontaneous as the universe, as life, by insisting that it must have been created by an all powerful deity?

I also object to the classification of belief. Why put a label on something that is unique? Sounds like a bad case of organisation to me.

Yarr, this makes a whole lotta sense. Imo it's always been human nature to believe in something "higher" or "better" than them, the whole grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side mentality.

Although I don't think it's a bad thing to rationalize something. People made do with what they could at the time, since they couldn't explain much. But now, in the present time, I think that our beliefs should have evolved since then (well actually, we have, what with Scientology and all that hoopla).

But since the world was bigger then than it is now, there was less room for cultural interaction and homogeneity, hence a whole plethora of beliefs popped up. Again, I'm not saying that those were particularly bad; on the contrary, these beliefs helped shape cultures and national identities. However, in the world we live in, for people to continue to take action (or inaction) because of religious beliefs is unreasonable for me, which is the whole driving force behind what I personally believe.

Seriously, I've seen people who in times of misfortune put all of their time and energy into prayer and the like, instead of actually doing something that could alleviate their misfortune. In that respect, I'd rather admire a poor man who steals to feed his family more than another poor man who does nothing but pray for divine intervention.

[Namabia]

[

Listen you yourself have destroyed this arguement.

1. God issued something called 'Free Will'
2. Free Will enables people to believe in whatever they want. Does God love everyone still? Yes no matter what. Does God want those people back with him? Yes, but he can't force them.

Not omnipotent after all, then?

I never was to begin with.

Oh, right.
I didn't realise you were talking about yourself when you went on about God there. Sorry.

I wasn't talking to myself. The definition of omnipotent is,

1.almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2.having very great or unlimited authority or power.

According to the dictionary......

Am I God? Heck no. Am I almighty or have infinite power? Heck no. Do I have very great or unlimited authority? Once again heck no.

And I believe Cabra was twitting you on your lack of proof-reading powers. See the bolded, above.

I know. I saw it.

[Democraticus DCLXVI]

Bugger, the thread died to hijackers <_<

[Bavungria]

that's why i have not posted since its like a bunch of hijakcing bugs crawling through the thread and taking out it's lifeline

wow i do not know where i got that idea

[1337tonia]

My question is how can you not be christian. People who are athiest, I believe say there is no god as an excuse for them to get away wiht something they know is a sin. Also people say why doesnt god just show himself and my answer to that is Faith. What use what it be if god just showed himself to everyone and then everyone just switched to christian, God wants people who have faith and are loyal not people who see him and then suddenly believe. Also Athiest who dont belive in god explain to me about ghosts then? Dont say thier not real either because my dad and stepmother have both seen demons, and if you want to know about it i would be more than happy to explain.

Also people who belive Obama is the Anti-Christ, I can see this to some point because in the bible it says that the Anti-Christ will try to make peace wiht everyone and be a nice handsome smooth talker whihc obama is so yes i can see obama being the anti-christ. But i wouldnt freak out about it because if your saved then you will go to heaven. just like 2012 why freak out when you will be going to a better place thats why i think the people who freak out about it are the ones who are worried because they no about the sins they have committed.


Also all of these different religons like catholics, prodestants and judism and all the others i think are in my opinion are not needed because all you have to do is belive in god and the virgin marry and that jesus gave his sins for us, also god didnt make religon, humans made religon in thier own way that they seen fit. For example reilgon is formed like a club and then one day a member form that club doesnt like the ideas of it so then they go and make thier own club meaning religon. But really all you have to do is belive in virgin marry, jesus sacrifice and belive in god as your heavenly father and you will go to heaven.

Im not a perfect christian, no one is infact ive had my doubts but after talking wiht my Step Mom and my Dad and thinking about the miracles that have happened to me i do belive there is a god and thats called faith. So please anyone is welcome to comment but do not argue or make stupid comments or make fun of anyones religon. This is meant to be a discussion not a argument about which religon is better or calling someone stupid because of thier beliefs.

Have you seriously gone and posed this question!? Are you honestly asking us why we don't beleive there is a giant man in the sky telling us silently what to do, and can kill us by willing it? Asking us to deny that there is an ever-expanding universe beyond our front door? Asking us to disbeleive that nothing happens becuae of chance or coincidence, but because of an arbitrary deciding factor? Asking us to say that animals instantly popped out of the oceans, and that man simply appeared by a word, instead of taking the millinea to eveolve and adapt as fossil records have shown?

It is by Constitutional right that I needn't beleive in what you do. I respect your beleifs, and will not, in any way, attempt to disprove them. It is impossible to claim a religion to be false. However, you have opened yourself up to many questions yourself: How can you not be atheist? How can you not be Bhuddist? How can you not be Muslim? These and many more await the statement you've posed above.

I must also point this fragment out: "reilgon is formed like a club and then one day a member form that club doesnt like the ideas of it so then they go and make thier own club meaning religon. But really all you have to do is belive in virgin marry, jesus sacrifice and belive in god as your heavenly father and you will go to heaven."

My friend, Christianity was not the first religion to appear in human history, meaning that the guy who "left the club to sart his own" spawned your beleifs himself.

Another fragment: "Also Athiest who dont belive in god explain to me about ghosts then? Dont say thier not real either because my dad and stepmother have both seen demons, and if you want to know about it i would be more than happy to explain"

It is my theory that a ghost is the lingering electromagnetic energy left long after a person has passed away (into oblivion, in my opinion). Our brain waves and nueral synapses work on electromagnetic energy, which is produced by any electric current, and can travel on such. Ghost appear in places where the deceased have experienced great turmoil and emotional upset. Such things that work up our nerves create more and more energy, which tends to cling to any energy current it possibly can and linger there. This energy can remain for years if there is enough surrounding energy to fuel it. The elctromagentic energy we leave is an imprint of our consciousness, our thoughts, emotions, and personality. Some call it our 'soul', and that seems a fitting term. This energy allows the ghost to manifest sounds, move objects, or create a physical representation of themselves as they remember their former image. I do not beleive in demons, but i do beleive that there may be many ghosts in the world who are left behind by malevolent people, like homicidal criminals and such, who are out for blood even after death, simply because a part of their mind is buzzing across electric currents in the air, making it seem as if they're still alive.

And finally (i have no idea why im reading through this backward): "People who are athiest, I believe say there is no god as an excuse for them to get away wiht something they know is a sin."

I am an atheist because I refused to beleive what was fed to me as a child and think there was no other explanation like a naive infant. I trust logic in all things, and wanted to look for the truth and the real reasons things aorund me happened. I know the difference between right and wrong, and I don't need to beleive in any deity to know this difference.

I feel that religion is a crutch for those who haven't an explanation for phenomena they encounter. Imagine when man first began to develop abstract thought. He would think: "why is this world around me? Why does it rain? What is the light in the sky?" So, since he didn't know what it was, he thought: "Maybe there is a stronger man than i who has put all of these things here." And taught this to his progeny, for this was all they knew.

Perhaps this will teach you a lesson on question the beleifs of others, because many will put yours on the spot, as I have. You have to be very vain and single-minded to think that everyone must beleive what you do simply because you think it is right.

If you still feel strongly about this, do me one favor:

Prove your god exists. Undeniable proof.

[Treznor]

Prove your god exists. Undeniable proof.

Obviously, I don't disagree with you on any particular point. But you should be aware he's already immunized himself from this proof in his initial post.

Also people say why doesnt god just show himself and my answer to that is Faith. What use what it be if god just showed himself to everyone and then everyone just switched to christian, God wants people who have faith and are loyal not people who see him and then suddenly believe.

It's a classic apologist strategy: he doesn't need to prove anything because that would undermine faith. At the same time he's using faith to make concrete claims. You literally cannot win against that mindset. What you need to do is demonstrate how unreliable faith is in comparison to basic principles of evidence.

[Person012345]

Person do you support your country's military? Do you think the Jews or any other holocaust survivors were offended by the soldiers who saved them ? i am sure they felt bad for there deaths but rejoiced and thank them for there good dead. So you would be offended that someone more "important" or "worth more than you " would die for you ? i would be thank full ! know that is just me. I see your point of view but i do not understand your total lack of value of your own life ?

In a 1 for 1 life trade I would prefer to die over someone who has more to live for. War is different. Soldiers are given the means to fight, and should attempt to protect civilians, in that case.

About God being corrupt or unethical i can understand that. but there is two ways you can look at it. Either God is unethical but can give us many treasures if we worship him. most people go for the money and other treasures when it comes to life not really what is right. Or he is good and we where shaped in his image but when Satan tricked eave to eat the apple we turned into the evil/angelic people. I believe that people are basically the most evil and cruel creatures scientifically known to man. Do you agree ?

I do not. Whilst some are, most people are not evil and cruel.

I personally do not take pleasure and happiness over the wellbeing of others. Which is a good thing for a number of people. I would stand by my morality even with the promise of eternal life I would prefer to die than live supporting evil.

And satan didn't trick anyone. The conversation in the bible was basically as follows:
Satan: Did god say you couldn't eat from any tree in the garden?
Eve: Yeah, except the ones in the middle. If we eat from that he said we'll die. (note, god lied)
Satan: You surely won't die. Your eyes will be opened and you will see the difference between right and wrong, like god.
Eve: *eats apple* Hey try some of this adam.
Adam: *omnomnom*
*their eyes are opened and they see the difference between right and wrong*

The passage, to check yourself:
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

[Tekania]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

[The Alma Mater]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

Like ?

[Treznor]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

She didn't drop dead on the spot, which is usually the reasonable assumption if someone is told not to eat something. She gained knowledge she had been denied previously, which is also true. The serpent left out the fact that the knowledge would ultimately lead to her death, so a lie by omission, but on the whole the serpent was pretty straightforward to Eve.

[Tekania]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

She didn't drop dead on the spot, which is usually the reasonable assumption if someone is told not to eat something. She gained knowledge she had been denied previously, which is also true. The serpent left out the fact that the knowledge would ultimately lead to her death, so a lie by omission, but on the whole the serpent was pretty straightforward to Eve.

"left out the fact", translation "disinformation" which is merely a fancy way of saying they are "bearing false witness".

[Tekania]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

Like ?

"Ye shall not surely die"

[Treznor]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

She didn't drop dead on the spot, which is usually the reasonable assumption if someone is told not to eat something. She gained knowledge she had been denied previously, which is also true. The serpent left out the fact that the knowledge would ultimately lead to her death, so a lie by omission, but on the whole the serpent was pretty straightforward to Eve.

"left out the fact", translation "disinformation" which is merely a fancy way of saying they are "bearing false witness".

As opposed to God saying "eat this and thou shall surely die"? A little bit of fear-mongering and emotional blackmail there, neglecting to leave out "eventually." He doesn't have the moral high ground.

[Jonathan Joseph]

My question is how can you not be christian. People who are athiest, I believe say there is no god as an excuse for them to get away wiht something they know is a sin. Also people say why doesnt god just show himself and my answer to that is Faith. What use what it be if god just showed himself to everyone and then everyone just switched to christian, God wants people who have faith and are loyal not people who see him and then suddenly believe. Also Athiest who dont belive in god explain to me about ghosts then? Dont say thier not real either because my dad and stepmother have both seen demons, and if you want to know about it i would be more than happy to explain.

Also people who belive Obama is the Anti-Christ, I can see this to some point because in the bible it says that the Anti-Christ will try to make peace wiht everyone and be a nice handsome smooth talker whihc obama is so yes i can see obama being the anti-christ. But i wouldnt freak out about it because if your saved then you will go to heaven. just like 2012 why freak out when you will be going to a better place thats why i think the people who freak out about it are the ones who are worried because they no about the sins they have committed.


Also all of these different religons like catholics, prodestants and judism and all the others i think are in my opinion are not needed because all you have to do is belive in god and the virgin marry and that jesus gave his sins for us, also god didnt make religon, humans made religon in thier own way that they seen fit. For example reilgon is formed like a club and then one day a member form that club doesnt like the ideas of it so then they go and make thier own club meaning religon. But really all you have to do is belive in virgin marry, jesus sacrifice and belive in god as your heavenly father and you will go to heaven.

Im not a perfect christian, no one is infact ive had my doubts but after talking wiht my Step Mom and my Dad and thinking about the miracles that have happened to me i do belive there is a god and thats called faith. So please anyone is welcome to comment but do not argue or make stupid comments or make fun of anyones religon. This is meant to be a discussion not a argument about which religon is better or calling someone stupid because of thier beliefs.

Your main argument seems to be that all atheists are in fact sinners, I'd also argue that people who believe in a religion and force it upon others are also sinners. The big thing is a lot of atheists just don't see a feasible way for there to be any god. They are not bad people, they sin no more than the christian people and some even less so. It is not an excuse to allow for sin, but a conclusion drawn from free thought in many cases.

Now your section where you say there is no need for all of these religions bothers me because it seems that you lump them all into the category of believing Jesus was our savior. The big problem here, judaism (which you listed above) does not believe Jesus was the savior, they still believe in the same god (granted they view god as more vengeful since they disregard the new testament where god is much nicer). So it seems you just want to talk about this without actually knowing about the things you are trying to have a discussion on.

To many people it becomes a matter on not what you believe but who you are. I've met many Christians who are not very good people, especially to people with different beliefs. This becomes a sad issue when even by the word of God you are supposed to love and accept all of his children (interpretation of this can mean everyone or just the ones that believe in him). So these people judge not on who you are to others or how much you help others, but only on a belief system that is questionable to about half of the rest of the world.

[Tekania]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

She didn't drop dead on the spot, which is usually the reasonable assumption if someone is told not to eat something. She gained knowledge she had been denied previously, which is also true. The serpent left out the fact that the knowledge would ultimately lead to her death, so a lie by omission, but on the whole the serpent was pretty straightforward to Eve.

"left out the fact", translation "disinformation" which is merely a fancy way of saying they are "bearing false witness".

As opposed to God saying "eat this and thou shall surely die"? A little bit of fear-mongering and emotional blackmail there, neglecting to leave out "eventually." He doesn't have the moral high ground.

God told them not to eat, or they will die.... which was true

The serpent told her she would not die.... which was not true

"Eventually" actually has nothing to do with it, so I'm dismissing the rest of your statement as rubbish.

[Person012345]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

She didn't drop dead on the spot, which is usually the reasonable assumption if someone is told not to eat something. She gained knowledge she had been denied previously, which is also true. The serpent left out the fact that the knowledge would ultimately lead to her death, so a lie by omission, but on the whole the serpent was pretty straightforward to Eve.

"left out the fact", translation "disinformation" which is merely a fancy way of saying they are "bearing false witness".

As opposed to God saying "eat this and thou shall surely die"? A little bit of fear-mongering and emotional blackmail there, neglecting to leave out "eventually." He doesn't have the moral high ground.

This. Eve did not simply die. As is said in the bible, god is jealous, and he hates to see humanity achieving (tower of babel for example). He actually often seems scared of other gods. I believe that even if christianity is true there may be other gods, but god wants you to worship him. He uses the same tactics as any despot, fearmongering. His statement that if they touched it they would die means they would drop dead on the spot. If god had wanted it to mean something else he would have phrased it more clearly. The serpent said they would not. God said it to put fear into them. As it happened he didn't kill them for whatever reason and the serpent was right.

The serpent is not supposed to be omniscient, even if god DID mean that, how would the serpent have known, and how could he have predicted their deaths in hundreds of years? He didn't tell them to eat it, and as far as I'm concerned he did not decieve them.

[The Alma Mater]

She then CLAIMED the serpent decieved her, but she was a lying bitch. God (oh how just he is) then punished the serpent for a crime he did not commit (and god being omniscient presumably knew this).

The serpent DID deceive her, since the serpent provided information which was not true.

Like ?

"Ye shall not surely die"

How is that disinformation ? Death was not certain.

[Treznor]

God told them not to eat, or they will die.... which was true

After a fashion. And what the serpent told them was true. After a fashion.

The serpent told her she would not die.... which was not true

Not entirely. Eating the fruit didn't cause immediate or even shortly impending death. They went on to lead long lives, possessing knowledge that God had wanted to deny them. He also told them the truth.

"Eventually" actually has nothing to do with it, so I'm dismissing the rest of your statement as rubbish.

Well hey, so long as we're not challenging your beliefs. Go right ahead.

[Tekania]

The serpent is not supposed to be omniscient, even if god DID mean that, how would the serpent have known, and how could he have predicted their deaths in hundreds of years? He didn't tell them to eat it, and as far as I'm concerned he did not decieve them.

Omniscience has nothing to do with this. The serpent knew the commission, and therefore would have known the punishment since they were presented to Adam at the same time. He denied the punishment would happen before Eve.

"Eventually" bears no part in it. The penalty is the penalty, doesn't really matter if it is executed in 2 seconds or 2000 years.

You're right, he didn't say "eat this". He tricked her into wanting to eat it... As we know, even in a soceity dedicated to free speech, said freedom does not itself abrogate one of the effect of their speech, or penalties imposed. You yell fire in a crowded theater and you will be penalized.

He provided information which was not 100% accurate for the purpose of getting her to engage in actions which were damaging to her in a manner which can be nothing else but intentional on his part... there is a word for this called "disinformation", and it's a form of deceit.

[The Alma Mater]

He provided information which was not 100% accurate for the purpose of getting her to engage in actions which were damaging to her in a manner which can be nothing else but intentional on his part... there is a word for this called "disinformation", and it's a form of deceit.

But how is his "deception" more worthy of condemnation than Gods ?