How can you not be christian?

[Boreal Tundra UN Admin]

Worst attempt at demonstrating god's existence, EVER!

No, there have been far worse, I've seen them.

[Boreal Tundra UN Admin]

So, you don't believe in free will then,... interesting.

It's a complicated issue that's plagued the church since its founding. How do you reconcile an all-knowing God with the concept of free will? Personally, I would say a lot of it rests on the fact that He experiences time differently than we do, but there's no clear-cut answer.

Actually, that doesn't help the reconciliation at all. Omniscience is an "all or nothing" proposition. Either god is omniscient and neither we nor god has free will or, god is not omniscient and the existence of free will is possible (but, not guaranteed.)

[Boreal Tundra UN Admin]

A rapist can "create" a child and the bible says to honor thy mother and father so, that child should honor the rapist regardless if he beat the mother almost senseless and left her for dead.

?

It seems like that would logically prevent one from "honoring thy mother", would it not?

"left her for dead" =/= "left her dead"

[Katganistan]

My question is how can you not be christian. People who are athiest, I believe say there is no god as an excuse for them to get away wiht something they know is a sin. Also people say why doesnt god just show himself and my answer to that is Faith. What use what it be if god just showed himself to everyone and then everyone just switched to christian, God wants people who have faith and are loyal not people who see him and then suddenly believe. Also Athiest who dont belive in god explain to me about ghosts then? Dont say thier not real either because my dad and stepmother have both seen demons, and if you want to know about it i would be more than happy to explain.

Also people who belive Obama is the Anti-Christ, I can see this to some point because in the bible it says that the Anti-Christ will try to make peace wiht everyone and be a nice handsome smooth talker whihc obama is so yes i can see obama being the anti-christ. But i wouldnt freak out about it because if your saved then you will go to heaven. just like 2012 why freak out when you will be going to a better place thats why i think the people who freak out about it are the ones who are worried because they no about the sins they have committed.


Also all of these different religons like catholics, prodestants and judism and all the others i think are in my opinion are not needed because all you have to do is belive in god and the virgin marry and that jesus gave his sins for us, also god didnt make religon, humans made religon in thier own way that they seen fit. For example reilgon is formed like a club and then one day a member form that club doesnt like the ideas of it so then they go and make thier own club meaning religon. But really all you have to do is belive in virgin marry, jesus sacrifice and belive in god as your heavenly father and you will go to heaven.

Im not a perfect christian, no one is infact ive had my doubts but after talking wiht my Step Mom and my Dad and thinking about the miracles that have happened to me i do belive there is a god and thats called faith. So please anyone is welcome to comment but do not argue or make stupid comments or make fun of anyones religon. This is meant to be a discussion not a argument about which religon is better or calling someone stupid because of thier beliefs.

Arrogant much?

[Gesford]

I would still like to know the OP's response to this >>

For everything there must be a cause, unless that something is eternal. And the universe is not eternal,

Proof?
Why is there fire?

not is the "big bang", or the gases, or the "heat that caused the big bang". Everything that is matter can never be eternal unless the supernatural exists.

Proof?

What does science claim to be eternal?

Nothing because in science, there is no soul.

Yet for everything there must be a cause, unless there's something that's eternal. And for the universe to have come into existence, there must have been something eternal.

Ah yes, one of the most classic ontological arguments for the existence of God. Unfortunately it still makes unwarranted assumptions about the nature of the circumstances before or beyond the universe solely based on a cause and effect rule we have only seen applied within the universe. A brutely existing universe (one that, for no reason, simply popped into existence) could still be a possibility.

. Or the response of anyone who has come out of the woodwork to support the OP.

Actually, that doesn't help the reconciliation at all. Omniscience is an "all or nothing" proposition. Either god is omniscient and neither we nor god has free will or, god is not omniscient and the existence of free will is possible (but, not guaranteed.)

I wrote a paper on this very subject about a year ago, and I agree with you. Unfortunately most opponents in favor of theodicy argue that to go down this road is to misinterpret the meaning of the terms "omniscient", "omnibenevolent", or "omnipotent". I cannot fathom where they get their alternative definitions from, but hey, there you go.

[Geniasis]

Actually, that doesn't help the reconciliation at all. Omniscience is an "all or nothing" proposition. Either god is omniscient and neither we nor god has free will or, god is not omniscient and the existence of free will is possible (but, not guaranteed.)

Oh? What if God exists outside the flow of time, and therefore knows everything we will do because from His perspective, we have already done it?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Actually, that doesn't help the reconciliation at all. Omniscience is an "all or nothing" proposition. Either god is omniscient and neither we nor god has free will or, god is not omniscient and the existence of free will is possible (but, not guaranteed.)

Oh? What if God exists outside the flow of time, and therefore knows everything we will do because from His perspective, we have already done it?

I've heard that before and, tbh, is quite interesting to theorize that.

[Gesford]

Actually, that doesn't help the reconciliation at all. Omniscience is an "all or nothing" proposition. Either god is omniscient and neither we nor god has free will or, god is not omniscient and the existence of free will is possible (but, not guaranteed.)

Oh? What if God exists outside the flow of time, and therefore knows everything we will do because from His perspective, we have already done it?

What it means is that we merely have the illusion of choice.

[Geniasis]

What it means is that we merely have the illusion of choice.

But what makes it the illusion? No outside force compelled us to make that specific choice.

[Gesford]

If God is to see the entire track of time (part of being omniscient, at least in my strict definition), then he is to see the exact outcomes of every single choice, the exact end result of the universe. If God's omniscience is reliable (kind of the point of it), then what he sees will actually come to pass, every time, no matter how much we believe we actually have an influence on it. The existence of a distinct, inevitable end result in anyone's perception of time, including 'God's' is a contradiction of the principle of "libertarian" (not the political sense of the word) free will

[Saucy Tarts]

Perhaps first, a little levity:
A man gets to heaven, he's given a tour by St. Peter... His guide points out the many areas of heaven, “In here are the Jewish people and over there the Muslims... oh and there, the Buddhists...” and so on. As they walk along they pass by a closed door and he says, “Now be very quiet going by here, the Christians are in there and they think they're the only ones here.” - It's an old joke I know...

Next a few things:
There is either 'God's Plan' or there is 'Free Will' you cannot have both. If God truly knows all then he would know all outcomes and what everyone thinks and feels and knows how they will act in any given situation. Not only this but he allows it all to happen.

The notion of Heaven and Hell. God says 'Be Good' and he vaguely promises paradise in the afterlife. We don't actually know there is a Heaven to go to afterward so how do we really know we're going to be rewarded? Supposedly if one makes a deal with the devil, they get whatever they want knowing they're going to Hell in the end. Period. Of course does anyone actually know anyone that made any deals with Satan personally, I don't... Granted as we don't know that there is a Heaven we additionally do not know there is a Hell. I personally do not believe in either so good luck telling me how I'll be tortured and will burn in Hell.

The Devil – or Lucifer – or Satan. If indeed God created all and knows all, then as we know he created the Angels, of which Lucifer was indeed an angel. He knew Lucifer would fall and become Satan, in fact God made this happen because he needed a fall guy. One cannot be seen as the ultimate good if there is not an adversarial ultimate evil.

Jesus. Whether or not he did die for anyone's sins, there is one important thing that our OP and several of the Christians I deal with forget most about his teachings. Jesus' most important teaching to those that would follow him was to Love and Tolerate their fellow man. That means ALL their fellow men … and women … and gays … and their enemies … and those who follow alternate religions … and those who follow no religion … and anyone else I left out.

Finally:
OP - If you're going to argue religion it's best you know what the hell you're talking about before getting into it with a bunch of people who are likely older and more educated than you, and sometimes educated in more than one religious perspective. I'm not giving you the 'respect your elders line' but I am saying, 'Dude, you're 15.' (so you say) It's gonna take more than the small amount of living you've actually done to get the point many of the people you are arguing with have already gotten to through schooling and life experience. Realize that in the tiny part of the world that you are from, it is possible that everyone may be a lot like you – raised Christian and all that. But out there in the great big world there are billions of people that do not share your upbringing – they had their own. And many of them were raised with other faiths and other ideas and beliefs that do not match yours. You're a kid, and so yeah we get that the only viewpoint you really have is that of your parents and maybe the town you live in. But after you grow up maybe you'll be lucky enough to have experienced different viewpoints and understand that just because you believe it doesn't mean you are right and everyone else is wrong. It's okay for people to be different. Most of the time it's all about perspective anyway.

It's shit like this that keeps people divided. The more you open yourself up and really, honestly learn about the world around you and the ideas that present themselves, the more you realize how little you actually know and you come to understand that, yeah you believe what you believe, but you know and understand that you could be wrong. And that's okay.

Now I've spent way too much time reading this thread, mainly cause religious babble amuses me...

[Pope Joan]

I was actively a Christian pastor for twenty years, including the last six in the inner city, and have attended and supported Roman Catholic, United Church of Christ, Methodist, Pentecostal, and Presbyterian congregations.

In all this experience I have never met one single person who was truly converted to the faith through argument or exhortation. So imho efforts in that direction are wasted. It's a form of coercion, and no coerced decision holds up over time.

Now I have met a few evangelists and youth directors who claimed to have been persuaded by such arguments, because that was how they themselves were trying to make a living. In each case, it turned out that they were lying; they had all been raised in the faith and never left it.

[Nekoko]

My question is how can you not be christian. People who are athiest, I believe say there is no god as an excuse for them to get away wiht something they know is a sin. Also people say why doesnt god just show himself and my answer to that is Faith. What use what it be if god just showed himself to everyone and then everyone just switched to christian, God wants people who have faith and are loyal not people who see him and then suddenly believe. Also Athiest who dont belive in god explain to me about ghosts then? Dont say thier not real either because my dad and stepmother have both seen demons, and if you want to know about it i would be more than happy to explain.

Also people who belive Obama is the Anti-Christ, I can see this to some point because in the bible it says that the Anti-Christ will try to make peace wiht everyone and be a nice handsome smooth talker whihc obama is so yes i can see obama being the anti-christ. But i wouldnt freak out about it because if your saved then you will go to heaven. just like 2012 why freak out when you will be going to a better place thats why i think the people who freak out about it are the ones who are worried because they no about the sins they have committed.


Also all of these different religons like catholics, prodestants and judism and all the others i think are in my opinion are not needed because all you have to do is belive in god and the virgin marry and that jesus gave his sins for us, also god didnt make religon, humans made religon in thier own way that they seen fit. For example reilgon is formed like a club and then one day a member form that club doesnt like the ideas of it so then they go and make thier own club meaning religon. But really all you have to do is belive in virgin marry, jesus sacrifice and belive in god as your heavenly father and you will go to heaven.

Im not a perfect christian, no one is infact ive had my doubts but after talking wiht my Step Mom and my Dad and thinking about the miracles that have happened to me i do belive there is a god and thats called faith. So please anyone is welcome to comment but do not argue or make stupid comments or make fun of anyones religon. This is meant to be a discussion not a argument about which religon is better or calling someone stupid because of thier beliefs.

I know, right?

[Grave_n_idle]

I was actively a Christian pastor for twenty years, including the last six in the inner city, and have attended and supported Roman Catholic, United Church of Christ, Methodist, Pentecostal, and Presbyterian congregations.

In all this experience I have never met one single person who was truly converted to the faith through argument or exhortation. So imho efforts in that direction are wasted. It's a form of coercion, and no coerced decision holds up over time.

Now I have met a few evangelists and youth directors who claimed to have been persuaded by such arguments, because that was how they themselves were trying to make a living. In each case, it turned out that they were lying; they had all been raised in the faith and never left it.

This is what I've encountered, too.

It's similar to how - the only people who actually accept Pascal's Wager, are the people who are looking for justification for faith they already have.

[SaintB]

Perhaps first, a little levity:
A man gets to heaven, he's given a tour by St. Peter... His guide points out the many areas of heaven, “In here are the Jewish people and over there the Muslims... oh and there, the Buddhists...” and so on. As they walk along they pass by a closed door and he says, “Now be very quiet going by here, the Christians are in there and they think they're the only ones here.” - It's an old joke I know...

Next a few things:
There is either 'God's Plan' or there is 'Free Will' you cannot have both. If God truly knows all then he would know all outcomes and what everyone thinks and feels and knows how they will act in any given situation. Not only this but he allows it all to happen.

The notion of Heaven and Hell. God says 'Be Good' and he vaguely promises paradise in the afterlife. We don't actually know there is a Heaven to go to afterward so how do we really know we're going to be rewarded? Supposedly if one makes a deal with the devil, they get whatever they want knowing they're going to Hell in the end. Period. Of course does anyone actually know anyone that made any deals with Satan personally, I don't... Granted as we don't know that there is a Heaven we additionally do not know there is a Hell. I personally do not believe in either so good luck telling me how I'll be tortured and will burn in Hell.

The Devil – or Lucifer – or Satan. If indeed God created all and knows all, then as we know he created the Angels, of which Lucifer was indeed an angel. He knew Lucifer would fall and become Satan, in fact God made this happen because he needed a fall guy. One cannot be seen as the ultimate good if there is not an adversarial ultimate evil.

Jesus. Whether or not he did die for anyone's sins, there is one important thing that our OP and several of the Christians I deal with forget most about his teachings. Jesus' most important teaching to those that would follow him was to Love and Tolerate their fellow man. That means ALL their fellow men … and women … and gays … and their enemies … and those who follow alternate religions … and those who follow no religion … and anyone else I left out.

Finally:
OP - If you're going to argue religion it's best you know what the hell you're talking about before getting into it with a bunch of people who are likely older and more educated than you, and sometimes educated in more than one religious perspective. I'm not giving you the 'respect your elders line' but I am saying, 'Dude, you're 15.' (so you say) It's gonna take more than the small amount of living you've actually done to get the point many of the people you are arguing with have already gotten to through schooling and life experience. Realize that in the tiny part of the world that you are from, it is possible that everyone may be a lot like you – raised Christian and all that. But out there in the great big world there are billions of people that do not share your upbringing – they had their own. And many of them were raised with other faiths and other ideas and beliefs that do not match yours. You're a kid, and so yeah we get that the only viewpoint you really have is that of your parents and maybe the town you live in. But after you grow up maybe you'll be lucky enough to have experienced different viewpoints and understand that just because you believe it doesn't mean you are right and everyone else is wrong. It's okay for people to be different. Most of the time it's all about perspective anyway.

It's shit like this that keeps people divided. The more you open yourself up and really, honestly learn about the world around you and the ideas that present themselves, the more you realize how little you actually know and you come to understand that, yeah you believe what you believe, but you know and understand that you could be wrong. And that's okay.

Now I've spent way too much time reading this thread, mainly cause religious babble amuses me...

I hope you stick around

[Grosse Deutsches Reich]

I can't be a Christian the same reason why you can't be a Muslim.

Im not a muslim for one reaosn they belive in a Allah who rewards them for killing which is completely wrong because what god would creat someone and then reward someone else for killing the other person he made?

Two words: The Crusades.

[Fire_is_hot]

Ah, Mortal, mortal, mortal. It's things like this that make my day. Thank you OP for giving me something to laugh about! I mean, I know it's been said, (many times, in fact) but not everyone happens to think about your god is the one and only. (and before you ask, No I'm not an Athiest.)

[Boreal Tundra UN Admin]

Actually, that doesn't help the reconciliation at all. Omniscience is an "all or nothing" proposition. Either god is omniscient and neither we nor god has free will or, god is not omniscient and the existence of free will is possible (but, not guaranteed.)

Oh? What if God exists outside the flow of time, and therefore knows everything we will do because from His perspective, we have already done it?

If we've already done it from his perspective then, our actions are fixed and free will is eliminated. Further,it eliminates his free will as, all his actions affecting us have already happened from his perspective as well.

It also causes the much greater problem that if god is "outside time" he is in stasis since choices and actions cannot happen without time (you cannot do something before something else without time.)

[Comrade Zheng]

Dear god, this why Religion should be completely banned from the forums in general.

(Well, Real-life discussions, International Incidents within game are fine.)

You people bicker over the stupidest things and try to convert everyone else to what you believe! Is there SOMEONE Here who's tolerant of other ideals!?

[Ingini]

Alright then...

I am a christian. I believe in the Bible. I don't need to prove it to anyone. If a person seeks truth, then they can't be spoon-fed but find it for themselves.

Many Athiests are as such because they fear a divine being. Its not that they are dumb, they just fear it.

I think many "christians" these days are not at all what they say they are. I think the people on the TV screens and some people here just say it cuz thats what brings them money or support.

I believe that real christians follow the Bible ALL OF THE BIBLE. That includes forgiveness, compassion, and love. I believe a real christian will not cuss at an athiest and that he/she will not attack them but give them their stance and nothing more.

To the athiests: I wish you can find what you seek

To the "christians": I wish you can come clean

To the faithful: I hope you can find the right words to say and not attack someone but defend your faith actively. Don't jam it down people's throats but give them what you believe and no more, no less.

[Grave_n_idle]

Many Athiests are as such because they fear a divine being. Its not that they are dumb, they just fear it.

Many Christians are as such because they fear a world where there isn't some ever-forgiving daddy to save them from harsh reality. It's not that they are dumb, they just fear it.


Right?

[Pope Joan]

Alright then...

I am a christian. I believe in the Bible. I don't need to prove it to anyone. If a person seeks truth, then they can't be spoon-fed but find it for themselves.

Many Athiests are as such because they fear a divine being. Its not that they are dumb, they just fear it.

I think many "christians" these days are not at all what they say they are. I think the people on the TV screens and some people here just say it cuz thats what brings them money or support.

I believe that real christians follow the Bible ALL OF THE BIBLE. That includes forgiveness, compassion, and love. I believe a real christian will not cuss at an athiest and that he/she will not attack them but give them their stance and nothing more.

To the athiests: I wish you can find what you seek

To the "christians": I wish you can come clean

To the faithful: I hope you can find the right words to say and not attack someone but defend your faith actively. Don't jam it down people's throats but give them what you believe and no more, no less.

Your approach certainly rings a bell with me.

More productive helpful cooperative work, o christians!

and less preaching AT people, please?

[Boreal Tundra UN Admin]

Dear god, this why Religion should be completely banned from the forums in general.

(Well, Real-life discussions, International Incidents within game are fine.)

You people bicker over the stupidest things and try to convert everyone else to what you believe! Is there SOMEONE Here who's tolerant of other ideals!?

I guess that depends what you mean by "tolerant."

If you mean willing to accept as valid without question then, I certainly hope not. Unless of course they're all willing to advance me the money for publication of my treatise, "The Ultimate Ideology for the Benefit of Humanity." (Which I promise will gain them 1000% return per annum once it is written.)

If on the other hand you mean willing to accept that others have a right to hold whatever beliefs the wish but, are willing to justify them under scrutiny, admit the do not stand up to scrutiny or keep them secret and ensure they have no effect on others. Then many of us, including myself, fall into that category.

While there may be degrees between these two options, they are really about the sum of the situation.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.

[Ingini]

Many Athiests are as such because they fear a divine being. Its not that they are dumb, they just fear it.

Many Christians are as such because they fear a world where there isn't some ever-forgiving daddy to save them from harsh reality. It's not that they are dumb, they just fear it.


Right?

We don't value this world at all. Why would you fear something that you know is going to give you pain. We don't fear this world, we just don't believe in it. We cast our lot on whats afterward.