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US Government Shutdown- It's Over!... For Now

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Will the government shutdown in three weeks?

Yes
102
77%
No
30
23%
 
Total votes : 132

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Hurtful Thoughts
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Posts: 5074
Founded: Sep 09, 2005
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:34 am

The Grims wrote:
Mystic Warriors wrote:


What? :blink:


If Trump can declare a national emergency over this, other presidents can do the same over issues like gun ownership, climate change et cetera. Even FOXnews acknowledges this and states they hope Trump will be stopped by the courts.

Yes, and expect a ton of citizen pushback if such an order happens.

Since, y'know, nat'l emergency gun confiscation, or EO-gun confiscation would be an unconstitutional order that the federal grunts could not be held to do.

Can this get taken to the gun control thread? I feel like watching this get ripped.

A border-wall, on the other hand, is not unconsitutional.
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:15 am

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:
The Grims wrote:
If Trump can declare a national emergency over this, other presidents can do the same over issues like gun ownership, climate change et cetera. Even FOXnews acknowledges this and states they hope Trump will be stopped by the courts.

Yes, and expect a ton of citizen pushback if such an order happens.

Since, y'know, nat'l emergency gun confiscation, or EO-gun confiscation would be an unconstitutional order that the federal grunts could not be held to do.

Can this get taken to the gun control thread? I feel like watching this get ripped.

A border-wall, on the other hand, is not unconsitutional.

It is absolutely unconstitutional for the president to seize private property to build a wall. The power of eminent domain rests with the Congress, not the president or his administration, anything else is a violation of citizens' constitutional rights. Not to mention that the declaration itself may violate the terms of the National Emergencies Act, and that it certainly does not reflect any existing "emergency".
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Hurtful Thoughts
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Founded: Sep 09, 2005
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:33 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Hurtful Thoughts wrote:Yes, and expect a ton of citizen pushback if such an order happens.

Since, y'know, nat'l emergency gun confiscation, or EO-gun confiscation would be an unconstitutional order that the federal grunts could not be held to do.

Can this get taken to the gun control thread? I feel like watching this get ripped.

A border-wall, on the other hand, is not unconsitutional.

It is absolutely unconstitutional for the president to seize private property to build a wall. The power of eminent domain rests with the Congress, not the president or his administration, anything else is a violation of citizens' constitutional rights. Not to mention that the declaration itself may violate the terms of the National Emergencies Act, and that it certainly does not reflect any existing "emergency".

Well, the wall itself, isn't unconstitutional.

Ceding border-properties entirely to Mexican jurisdiction (and consequently, walling it off from America) if presiding over them became too inconvenient, would actually be a Presidential power, though.
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:35 am

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:It is absolutely unconstitutional for the president to seize private property to build a wall. The power of eminent domain rests with the Congress, not the president or his administration, anything else is a violation of citizens' constitutional rights. Not to mention that the declaration itself may violate the terms of the National Emergencies Act, and that it certainly does not reflect any existing "emergency".

Well, the wall itself, isn't unconstitutional.

Ceding border-properties entirely to Mexican jurisdiction (and consequently, walling it off from America) if presiding over them became too inconvenient, would actually be a Presidential power, though.

If already owned by Americans, I am not so sure about that.
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Hurtful Thoughts
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:36 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Hurtful Thoughts wrote:Well, the wall itself, isn't unconstitutional.

Ceding border-properties entirely to Mexican jurisdiction (and consequently, walling it off from America) if presiding over them became too inconvenient, would actually be a Presidential power, though.

If already owned by Americans, I am not so sure about that.

This could become round ten of the Maldives-debate.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:38 am

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:If already owned by Americans, I am not so sure about that.

This could become round ten of the Maldives-debate.

Shrug, I just am not aware of anything that legally allows the president to cede private land to another country.
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Hurtful Thoughts
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:41 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Hurtful Thoughts wrote:This could become round ten of the Maldives-debate.

Shrug, I just am not aware of anything that legally allows the president to cede private land to another country.

Well, America would have to lose a war to Mexico first.

If everyone plays their part, there wouldn't be any private owners to worry about.

If Bush made 9/11 an inside job, a few cattle-ranchers on the Rio Grande would be nothing.
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

Blackhelm Confederacy wrote:If there was only a "like" button for NS posts....

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Longweather
Diplomat
 
Posts: 911
Founded: Nov 29, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Longweather » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:48 am

Vassenor wrote:
South World wrote:
Sorry I just can’t let this fly. The family separation started under Clinton and continued under Bush AND Obama. So don’t try to blame it on Trump


So today in "repeating lies in the hopes it makes them true"...


So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...

Longweather wrote:


Actually, your source is specifically calling out and deeming false specific numbers from a meme.

Here's an excerpt from the second to last paragraph.

That means it is not possible to make a precise statistical comparison between Obama and Trump on this specific outcome. However, immigration experts and former Homeland Security officials agree that the rate of child separation under Obama is likely nowhere close to what has been seen under Trump.


The bolded portion is a link to one of their sources which has this to say about the use of family separation by previous administrations.

Is this a new immigration enforcement policy?
Not completely. The George W. Bush administration implemented Operation Streamline in 2005, which also referred many people who violated these provisions for prosecution in federal courts, although the majority of prosecutions were for the felony charge of illegal re-entry and not for first-time offenders. The Obama administration continued and expanded the policy through 2014, but later shifted its enforcement priorities towards targeting specific criminal populations.

The Obama administration also used family separation when they prosecuted immigration offenses as a deterrent against illegal border crossings after 2014 as more children and families fled violence in Central American countries. However, immigration advocates allege that the new zero-tolerance policy against immigration violations will cause more families to be separated than before, with some claiming to have witnessed an increase in family separations since June 2017.


This clearly says that the Obama administration separated families. Not as much as your Snopes article was debunking, but it definitely implies a nonzero figure.

So... maybe you need to actually read your sources.


EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.
Last edited by Longweather on Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
_[' ]_
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:52 pm

Longweather wrote:


So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...

Longweather wrote:
Actually, your source is specifically calling out and deeming false specific numbers from a meme.

Here's an excerpt from the second to last paragraph.



The bolded portion is a link to one of their sources which has this to say about the use of family separation by previous administrations.



This clearly says that the Obama administration separated families. Not as much as your Snopes article was debunking, but it definitely implies a nonzero figure.

So... maybe you need to actually read your sources.


EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.


So when did Clinton or Obama engage in separation to this degree? Because hiding behind BUT CLINTON or BUT OBAMA is just a bullshit deflection of the highest order.
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Tobleste
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Founded: Dec 27, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Tobleste » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:29 pm

Longweather wrote:


So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...

Longweather wrote:
Actually, your source is specifically calling out and deeming false specific numbers from a meme.

Here's an excerpt from the second to last paragraph.



The bolded portion is a link to one of their sources which has this to say about the use of family separation by previous administrations.



This clearly says that the Obama administration separated families. Not as much as your Snopes article was debunking, but it definitely implies a nonzero figure.

So... maybe you need to actually read your sources.


EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.


This whole thing started because I said Democrats object to Trumps cruel approach of family separations but did want border security. The fact that a Democrat administration did enforce some separations while Trump deliberately and significantly escalated it supports that argument.
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Tobleste
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Tobleste » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:30 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Longweather wrote:
So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...



EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.


So when did Clinton or Obama engage in separation to this degree? Because hiding behind BUT CLINTON or BUT OBAMA is just a bullshit deflection of the highest order.


The irony is that in this case, they're defending Trump by saying the hated Obama did what they're praising trump for doing.
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Hurtful Thoughts
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:28 pm

Tobleste wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So when did Clinton or Obama engage in separation to this degree? Because hiding behind BUT CLINTON or BUT OBAMA is just a bullshit deflection of the highest order.


The irony is that in this case, they're defending Trump by saying the hated Obama did what they're praising trump for doing.


Obama was hated for many things, using separation of children from alleged parents to reduce human child sex trafficking and to decentivize illegal immigration and/or using emotion to create a legal loophole for asylum was not one of them.

If it were, the naysayers would have been more vocal about it and the Pro-Obama crowd would've had a harder time sweeping it under the radar.
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

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Longweather
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Founded: Nov 29, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Longweather » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:42 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Longweather wrote:
So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...



EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.


So when did Clinton or Obama engage in separation to this degree? Because hiding behind BUT CLINTON or BUT OBAMA is just a bullshit deflection of the highest order.


You use that article as a counter to people saying "but Obama separated families too!" I'm not making any point one way or another regarding the actions of various US administrations. I'm just pointing out that using that particular Snopes article is a poor way of countering them since it technically proves their point.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:44 pm

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:
Tobleste wrote:
The irony is that in this case, they're defending Trump by saying the hated Obama did what they're praising trump for doing.


Obama was hated for many things, using separation of children from alleged parents to reduce human child sex trafficking and to decentivize illegal immigration and/or using emotion to create a legal loophole for asylum was not one of them.

If it were, the naysayers would have been more vocal about it and the Pro-Obama crowd would've had a harder time sweeping it under the radar.



Pssssst.

Obama is no longer the President.

The current jackass is doing it.....
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The Lone Alliance
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:21 am

Well what I'm surprised that I swear this was less than three weeks.

Oh well another stupid government project if it even happens.

But really I doubt it's going to happen, or it it does it'll happen at such a slow pace that even if Trump somehow gets approval and gets re-elected it'll go at the same pace as the 2006 wall has, which we're still apparently building even today.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hurtful Thoughts
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:17 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:Well what I'm surprised that I swear this was less than three weeks.

Oh well another stupid government project if it even happens.

But really I doubt it's going to happen, or it it does it'll happen at such a slow pace that even if Trump somehow gets approval and gets re-elected it'll go at the same pace as the 2006 wall has, which we're still apparently building even today.

Somehow Trump is still sitting at an all-time high 62% approval rating in West Virginia.

Country roads... take me hooooooome....
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

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Seangoli
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Founded: Sep 24, 2006
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Seangoli » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:46 am

The Lone Alliance wrote:Well what I'm surprised that I swear this was less than three weeks.

Oh well another stupid government project if it even happens.

But really I doubt it's going to happen, or it it does it'll happen at such a slow pace that even if Trump somehow gets approval and gets re-elected it'll go at the same pace as the 2006 wall has, which we're still apparently building even today.


Doesn't matter. I have seen people actually state and believe that the Trump wall is currently being built, amd will be done in a matter of months.

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Tobleste
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Posts: 2120
Founded: Dec 27, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Tobleste » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:03 am

Seangoli wrote:
The Lone Alliance wrote:Well what I'm surprised that I swear this was less than three weeks.

Oh well another stupid government project if it even happens.

But really I doubt it's going to happen, or it it does it'll happen at such a slow pace that even if Trump somehow gets approval and gets re-elected it'll go at the same pace as the 2006 wall has, which we're still apparently building even today.


Doesn't matter. I have seen people actually state and believe that the Trump wall is currently being built, amd will be done in a matter of months.


That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.
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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:46 am

Tobleste wrote:
Seangoli wrote:
Doesn't matter. I have seen people actually state and believe that the Trump wall is currently being built, amd will be done in a matter of months.


That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.


Because what happens if he says that, and all the stuff that would happen as a result fails to materialise?
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Farnhamia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:57 am

Vassenor wrote:
Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.


Because what happens if he says that, and all the stuff that would happen as a result fails to materialise?

As if he cares. He'll call it fake news, have his staff come up with some specious stats to prove he was right and move on.
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Myrensis
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Postby Myrensis » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:19 am

Tobleste wrote:
Seangoli wrote:
Doesn't matter. I have seen people actually state and believe that the Trump wall is currently being built, amd will be done in a matter of months.


That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.


He backed himself into a corner when he triggered the shutdown because Ann Coulter mocked the size of his...hands. Yes his supporters are largely morons who consider his Twitter feed gospel, but there are a few who still have sufficient mental capacity to realize there's kind of a disconnect between "There's a catastrophic crisis on the border!" and "My big beautiful wall has totally been built!"

But now that he's proved to the dimwits how brave and strong and tough he is with the emergency declaration yes, it doesn't matter how little progress is made or if nothing happens at all, he'll just tweet that it's totally happening and they'll fill in the blanks as they all ready have been doing by pointing to refurbishment and expansion projects that have been going on for years as totally being proof that Trump is building the wall he promised!

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Tobleste
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Posts: 2120
Founded: Dec 27, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Tobleste » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:31 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.


He backed himself into a corner when he triggered the shutdown because Ann Coulter mocked the size of his...hands. Yes his supporters are largely morons who consider his Twitter feed gospel, but there are a few who still have sufficient mental capacity to realize there's kind of a disconnect between "There's a catastrophic crisis on the border!" and "My big beautiful wall has totally been built!"

But now that he's proved to the dimwits how brave and strong and tough he is with the emergency declaration yes, it doesn't matter how little progress is made or if nothing happens at all, he'll just tweet that it's totally happening and they'll fill in the blanks as they all ready have been doing by pointing to refurbishment and expansion projects that have been going on for years as totally being proof that Trump is building the wall he promised!


Good point. He could let the emergency declaration die in court while distracting his base* then declare job done.

*perhaps by jangling his keys on TV and shouting "Look at shinies!"
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Hurtful Thoughts
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:18 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.


He backed himself into a corner when he triggered the shutdown because Ann Coulter mocked the size of his...hands. Yes his supporters are largely morons who consider his Twitter feed gospel, but there are a few who still have sufficient mental capacity to realize there's kind of a disconnect between "There's a catastrophic crisis on the border!" and "My big beautiful wall has totally been built!"

But now that he's proved to the dimwits how brave and strong and tough he is with the emergency declaration yes, it doesn't matter how little progress is made or if nothing happens at all, he'll just tweet that it's totally happening and they'll fill in the blanks as they all ready have been doing by pointing to refurbishment and expansion projects that have been going on for years as totally being proof that Trump is building the wall he promised!

Well, all that would need to happen is for those chunks of wall to be built faster.

If they were somehow built slower, then obviously it is because of obstructionists obstructing the construction of an obstruction to unlawful traffic by being an obstruction to lawful traffic with their bodies.

So at this point it's impossible to lose, no matter how hard Trump tries... short of maybe him or the wall bursting into flames.
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Factbook and general referance thread.
HOI <- Storefront (WiP)
Due to population-cuts, military-size currently being revised

The People's Republic of Hurtful Thoughts is a gargantuan, environmentally stunning nation, ruled by Leader with an even hand, and renowned for its compulsory military service, multi-spousal wedding ceremonies, and smutty television.
Mokostana wrote:See, Hurty cared not if the mission succeeded or not, as long as it was spectacular trainwreck. Sometimes that was the host Nation firing a SCUD into a hospital to destroy a foreign infection and accidentally sparking a rebellion... or accidentally starting the Mokan Drug War

Blackhelm Confederacy wrote:If there was only a "like" button for NS posts....

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Mystic Warriors
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Posts: 2230
Founded: May 10, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Mystic Warriors » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:20 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.


He backed himself into a corner when he triggered the shutdown because Ann Coulter mocked the size of his...hands. Yes his supporters are largely morons who consider his Twitter feed gospel, but there are a few who still have sufficient mental capacity to realize there's kind of a disconnect between "There's a catastrophic crisis on the border!" and "My big beautiful wall has totally been built!"

But now that he's proved to the dimwits how brave and strong and tough he is with the emergency declaration yes, it doesn't matter how little progress is made or if nothing happens at all, he'll just tweet that it's totally happening and they'll fill in the blanks as they all ready have been doing by pointing to refurbishment and expansion projects that have been going on for years as totally being proof that Trump is building the wall he promised!


Pretty much, it is just sad he has millions of them who buy into this.
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Founded: May 10, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Mystic Warriors » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:22 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.


Because what happens if he says that, and all the stuff that would happen as a result fails to materialise?



Listen to farhn. He is already claiming it is being built and they bought it. They even bought Mexico is already paying for it.
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Economic Left/Right: -8.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.1

PROUD DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST I WILL NOT BE SHAMED FOR IT

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