NationStates

South World wrote:

Tobleste wrote:
Dems have backed border security plenty of times. They just object to Trumps symbolic (e.g. wall) and cruel (e.g. family seperations) approach.

Sorry I just can’t let this fly. The family separation started under Clinton and continued under Bush AND Obama. So don’t try to blame it on Trump

Tweeting about family separations at the border, Trump claimed, "we had the exact same policy as the Obama administration."

That’s not true. Families were separated at the border as a result of a new Trump policy called "zero-tolerance." There were some family separations under the Obama administration, but experts say not at the scale of the Trump administration's and that they were relatively rare.

We rate Trump’s statement False.

The Grims wrote:

Mystic Warriors wrote:


What?

If Trump can declare a national emergency over this, other presidents can do the same over issues like gun ownership, climate change et cetera. Even FOXnews acknowledges this and states they hope Trump will be stopped by the courts.

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:

The Grims wrote:
If Trump can declare a national emergency over this, other presidents can do the same over issues like gun ownership, climate change et cetera. Even FOXnews acknowledges this and states they hope Trump will be stopped by the courts.

Yes, and expect a ton of citizen pushback if such an order happens.

Since, y'know, nat'l emergency gun confiscation, or EO-gun confiscation would be an unconstitutional order that the federal grunts could not be held to do.

Can this get taken to the gun control thread? I feel like watching this get ripped.

A border-wall, on the other hand, is not unconsitutional.

Wallenburg wrote:

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:Yes, and expect a ton of citizen pushback if such an order happens.

Since, y'know, nat'l emergency gun confiscation, or EO-gun confiscation would be an unconstitutional order that the federal grunts could not be held to do.

Can this get taken to the gun control thread? I feel like watching this get ripped.

A border-wall, on the other hand, is not unconsitutional.

It is absolutely unconstitutional for the president to seize private property to build a wall. The power of eminent domain rests with the Congress, not the president or his administration, anything else is a violation of citizens' constitutional rights. Not to mention that the declaration itself may violate the terms of the National Emergencies Act, and that it certainly does not reflect any existing "emergency".

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:

Wallenburg wrote:It is absolutely unconstitutional for the president to seize private property to build a wall. The power of eminent domain rests with the Congress, not the president or his administration, anything else is a violation of citizens' constitutional rights. Not to mention that the declaration itself may violate the terms of the National Emergencies Act, and that it certainly does not reflect any existing "emergency".

Well, the wall itself, isn't unconstitutional.

Ceding border-properties entirely to Mexican jurisdiction (and consequently, walling it off from America) if presiding over them became too inconvenient, would actually be a Presidential power, though.

Neutraligon wrote:

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:Well, the wall itself, isn't unconstitutional.

Ceding border-properties entirely to Mexican jurisdiction (and consequently, walling it off from America) if presiding over them became too inconvenient, would actually be a Presidential power, though.

If already owned by Americans, I am not so sure about that.

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:If already owned by Americans, I am not so sure about that.

This could become round ten of the Maldives-debate.

Neutraligon wrote:

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:This could become round ten of the Maldives-debate.

Shrug, I just am not aware of anything that legally allows the president to cede private land to another country.

Vassenor wrote:

South World wrote:
Sorry I just can’t let this fly. The family separation started under Clinton and continued under Bush AND Obama. So don’t try to blame it on Trump

So today in "repeating lies in the hopes it makes them true"...

Longweather wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
You need to stop using reality and just accept that the memes are true without question.

Actually, your source is specifically calling out and deeming false specific numbers from a meme.

Here's an excerpt from the second to last paragraph.

That means it is not possible to make a precise statistical comparison between Obama and Trump on this specific outcome. However, immigration experts and former Homeland Security officials agree that the rate of child separation under Obama is likely nowhere close to what has been seen under Trump.

The bolded portion is a link to one of their sources which has this to say about the use of family separation by previous administrations.

Is this a new immigration enforcement policy?

Not completely. The George W. Bush administration implemented Operation Streamline in 2005, which also referred many people who violated these provisions for prosecution in federal courts, although the majority of prosecutions were for the felony charge of illegal re-entry and not for first-time offenders. The Obama administration continued and expanded the policy through 2014, but later shifted its enforcement priorities towards targeting specific criminal populations.

The Obama administration also used family separation when they prosecuted immigration offenses as a deterrent against illegal border crossings after 2014 as more children and families fled violence in Central American countries. However, immigration advocates allege that the new zero-tolerance policy against immigration violations will cause more families to be separated than before, with some claiming to have witnessed an increase in family separations since June 2017.

This clearly says that the Obama administration separated families. Not as much as your Snopes article was debunking, but it definitely implies a nonzero figure.

So... maybe you need to actually read your sources.

Longweather wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
So today in "repeating lies in the hopes it makes them true"...

So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...

Longweather wrote:
Actually, your source is specifically calling out and deeming false specific numbers from a meme.

Here's an excerpt from the second to last paragraph.



The bolded portion is a link to one of their sources which has this to say about the use of family separation by previous administrations.



This clearly says that the Obama administration separated families. Not as much as your Snopes article was debunking, but it definitely implies a nonzero figure.

So... maybe you need to actually read your sources.

EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.

Longweather wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
So today in "repeating lies in the hopes it makes them true"...

So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...

Longweather wrote:
Actually, your source is specifically calling out and deeming false specific numbers from a meme.

Here's an excerpt from the second to last paragraph.



The bolded portion is a link to one of their sources which has this to say about the use of family separation by previous administrations.



This clearly says that the Obama administration separated families. Not as much as your Snopes article was debunking, but it definitely implies a nonzero figure.

So... maybe you need to actually read your sources.

EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.

Vassenor wrote:

Longweather wrote:
So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...



EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.

So when did Clinton or Obama engage in separation to this degree? Because hiding behind BUT CLINTON or BUT OBAMA is just a bullshit deflection of the highest order.

Tobleste wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
So when did Clinton or Obama engage in separation to this degree? Because hiding behind BUT CLINTON or BUT OBAMA is just a bullshit deflection of the highest order.

The irony is that in this case, they're defending Trump by saying the hated Obama did what they're praising trump for doing.

Vassenor wrote:

Longweather wrote:
So today in "I haven't read my own article I'm using to prove my point"...



EDIT: I know that engaging Vass isn't productive due to, you know, them being Vass, but the misuse of that Snopes article bugs me.

So when did Clinton or Obama engage in separation to this degree? Because hiding behind BUT CLINTON or BUT OBAMA is just a bullshit deflection of the highest order.

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:

Tobleste wrote:
The irony is that in this case, they're defending Trump by saying the hated Obama did what they're praising trump for doing.

Obama was hated for many things, using separation of children from alleged parents to reduce human child sex trafficking and to decentivize illegal immigration and/or using emotion to create a legal loophole for asylum was not one of them.

If it were, the naysayers would have been more vocal about it and the Pro-Obama crowd would've had a harder time sweeping it under the radar.

The Lone Alliance wrote:Well what I'm surprised that I swear this was less than three weeks.

Oh well another stupid government project if it even happens.

But really I doubt it's going to happen, or it it does it'll happen at such a slow pace that even if Trump somehow gets approval and gets re-elected it'll go at the same pace as the 2006 wall has, which we're still apparently building even today.

The Lone Alliance wrote:Well what I'm surprised that I swear this was less than three weeks.

Oh well another stupid government project if it even happens.

But really I doubt it's going to happen, or it it does it'll happen at such a slow pace that even if Trump somehow gets approval and gets re-elected it'll go at the same pace as the 2006 wall has, which we're still apparently building even today.

Seangoli wrote:

The Lone Alliance wrote:Well what I'm surprised that I swear this was less than three weeks.

Oh well another stupid government project if it even happens.

But really I doubt it's going to happen, or it it does it'll happen at such a slow pace that even if Trump somehow gets approval and gets re-elected it'll go at the same pace as the 2006 wall has, which we're still apparently building even today.

Doesn't matter. I have seen people actually state and believe that the Trump wall is currently being built, amd will be done in a matter of months.

Tobleste wrote:

Seangoli wrote:
Doesn't matter. I have seen people actually state and believe that the Trump wall is currently being built, amd will be done in a matter of months.

That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.

Vassenor wrote:

Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.

Because what happens if he says that, and all the stuff that would happen as a result fails to materialise?

Tobleste wrote:

Seangoli wrote:
Doesn't matter. I have seen people actually state and believe that the Trump wall is currently being built, amd will be done in a matter of months.

That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.

Myrensis wrote:

Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.

He backed himself into a corner when he triggered the shutdown because Ann Coulter mocked the size of his...hands. Yes his supporters are largely morons who consider his Twitter feed gospel, but there are a few who still have sufficient mental capacity to realize there's kind of a disconnect between "There's a catastrophic crisis on the border!" and "My big beautiful wall has totally been built!"

But now that he's proved to the dimwits how brave and strong and tough he is with the emergency declaration yes, it doesn't matter how little progress is made or if nothing happens at all, he'll just tweet that it's totally happening and they'll fill in the blanks as they all ready have been doing by pointing to refurbishment and expansion projects that have been going on for years as totally being proof that Trump is building the wall he promised!

Myrensis wrote:

Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.

He backed himself into a corner when he triggered the shutdown because Ann Coulter mocked the size of his...hands. Yes his supporters are largely morons who consider his Twitter feed gospel, but there are a few who still have sufficient mental capacity to realize there's kind of a disconnect between "There's a catastrophic crisis on the border!" and "My big beautiful wall has totally been built!"

But now that he's proved to the dimwits how brave and strong and tough he is with the emergency declaration yes, it doesn't matter how little progress is made or if nothing happens at all, he'll just tweet that it's totally happening and they'll fill in the blanks as they all ready have been doing by pointing to refurbishment and expansion projects that have been going on for years as totally being proof that Trump is building the wall he promised!

Myrensis wrote:

Tobleste wrote:
That's why I don't get why he doesn't just claim the wall has been built. His supporters would believe him. They're not the brightest.

He backed himself into a corner when he triggered the shutdown because Ann Coulter mocked the size of his...hands. Yes his supporters are largely morons who consider his Twitter feed gospel, but there are a few who still have sufficient mental capacity to realize there's kind of a disconnect between "There's a catastrophic crisis on the border!" and "My big beautiful wall has totally been built!"

But now that he's proved to the dimwits how brave and strong and tough he is with the emergency declaration yes, it doesn't matter how little progress is made or if nothing happens at all, he'll just tweet that it's totally happening and they'll fill in the blanks as they all ready have been doing by pointing to refurbishment and expansion projects that have been going on for years as totally being proof that Trump is building the wall he promised!