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US Government Shutdown- It's Over!... For Now

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Will the government shutdown in three weeks?

Yes
102
78%
No
29
22%
 
Total votes : 131

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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39859
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:27 am

Purpelia wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Kids brought across the border between 2008-2017 aren’t invaders. Actually no immigrant legal or otherwise is an invader

Every person that enters a nation illegally for the purposes of appropriating which would otherwise have gone to legitimate citizens its resources is by definition either a raider or invader depending on if he intends to stay or take the loot home.


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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:29 am

Purpelia wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Kids brought across the border between 2008-2017 aren’t invaders. Actually no immigrant legal or otherwise is an invader

Every person that enters a nation illegally for the purposes of appropriating which would otherwise have gone to legitimate citizens its resources is by definition either a raider or invader depending on if he intends to stay or take the loot home.

:roll: Whatever.

Anyway that proposal I mentioned earlier? Ya Trump supported that, until Fox News and Co called him a pussy
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The Alma Mater
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Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:29 am

Purpelia wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:More money for the coast guard and homeland security ?

Yes. Yes they did.

But they also asked for protection for invaders in the same package. Anything packaged with that is just unacceptable poison and they know it.

Why would that be posion ? Trump himself wants to CUT funding from the aforementioned coast guard (and has in fact already done so) - so clearly he does not truly mind immigration.
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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30671
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:31 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Purpelia wrote:But they also asked for protection for invaders in the same package. Anything packaged with that is just unacceptable poison and they know it.

Why would that be posion ? Trump himself wants to CUT funding from the aforementioned coast guard (and has in fact already done so) - so clearly he does not truly mind immigration.

Because it's not what the actual end results will be but what the perceived ones in the minds of the voters are. Seriously, this is politics 101.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7733
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:33 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Every person that enters a nation illegally for the purposes of appropriating which would otherwise have gone to legitimate citizens its resources is by definition either a raider or invader depending on if he intends to stay or take the loot home.

:roll: Whatever.

Anyway that proposal I mentioned earlier? Ya Trump supported that, until Fox News and Co called him a pussy


Trump shows an ounce of reason, only to be laughed at by his own gang...

I don't think he's much in control of this whole tomfoolery.

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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39859
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:33 am

Purpelia wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Why would that be posion ? Trump himself wants to CUT funding from the aforementioned coast guard (and has in fact already done so) - so clearly he does not truly mind immigration.

Because it's not what the actual end results will be but what the perceived ones in the minds of the voters are. Seriously, this is politics 101.


Right which is why opinion polling is showing most people putting the blame squarely on Trump and the GOP for this shutdown.
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Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22243
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:40 am

Purpelia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:it appears that Trump has successfully demonstrated that Democratic politicians care more about opposing him then in making sure government workers get paid

this should have interesting ramifications for the next election

And the american republic in general.

Really the whole situation in the western world recent years reminds me eerily of the late Roman republic. The democracy is failing its people. Elites are pursuing their own insane moralisms whilst the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So they turn to populists which in turn are hated and reviled by the elites.

The scary thing is if Orban, Trump and their like are your Gracchus who is going to be your Cesar. In my lifetime we will probably find out.


this sounds like a job for me

now if only I had American citizenship
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 22243
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:41 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
it appears that Trump has successfully demonstrated that Democratic politicians care more about opposing him then in making sure government workers get paid


Democrats AND Republicans.
Remember, the shutdown started when republicans had a majority.


its how its perceived that matters

Democrats are being blamed for stalling now, the voters have a short memory they only remember how things look like at the tail end
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 22243
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:42 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Actually things are looking worse for republicans than democrats. Especially since ya know democrats didn’t start it republicans did.


A surprising number of Republicans seem to not know that.


Indeed

so in the end it won't matter
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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)
[/b]

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39859
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:42 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Democrats AND Republicans.
Remember, the shutdown started when republicans had a majority.


its how its perceived that matters

Democrats are being blamed for stalling now, the voters have a short memory they only remember how things look like at the tail end


The polls disagree with you.

Tobleste wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/13/shutdown-americans-blame-trump

ABC News and the Washington Post released a poll that followed trends when it showed 53% of respondents saying Trump and Republicans in Congress were to blame for the shutdown, with 29% blaming Democrats and 13% a combination. Support for building a border wall, the issue at the heart of the shutdown, increased to 42%, from 34% in January 2018. Among Republicans, 87% supported a wall.


So 66% blame republicans and 42% blame democrats. 4D chess.
Last edited by Vassenor on Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29056
Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:10 am

Purpelia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Which is why the Democrats are the ones who keep trying to get bills passed to get the government funded and everyone paid, and the Republicans are the ones that keep blocking those bills.

But tell me more about how it's the Democrats who don't want people to get paid.

They aren't trying unless they give him the wall. Trying would mean giving him the wall and asking for something in return.
You aren't compromising unless you give the other side what they want as well.


No. They shouldn't give him the wall. The wall is useless and too damn expensive.

On top of that, that sets a precedent that the President can just shut down goverment whenever congress doesnt roll over on command.

This is Trump's fault for starting the shutdown.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Posts: 29056
Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:31 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Democrats AND Republicans.
Remember, the shutdown started when republicans had a majority.


its how its perceived that matters

Democrats are being blamed for stalling now, the voters have a short memory they only remember how things look like at the tail end


nope
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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30671
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:32 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Purpelia wrote:They aren't trying unless they give him the wall. Trying would mean giving him the wall and asking for something in return.
You aren't compromising unless you give the other side what they want as well.


No. They shouldn't give him the wall. The wall is useless and too damn expensive.

On top of that, that sets a precedent that the President can just shut down goverment whenever congress doesnt roll over on command.

This is Trump's fault for starting the shutdown.

Precedents do not give people the right to do things. They merely demonstrate the flaws in the system that allowed them to occur. Why people cherish them rather than seeing them as a call for reform is anyone's guess.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Adavoya
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Jan 19, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Adavoya » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:39 am

Purpelia wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
No. They shouldn't give him the wall. The wall is useless and too damn expensive.

On top of that, that sets a precedent that the President can just shut down goverment whenever congress doesnt roll over on command.

This is Trump's fault for starting the shutdown.

Precedents do not give people the right to do things. They merely demonstrate the flaws in the system that allowed them to occur. Why people cherish them rather than seeing them as a call for reform is anyone's guess.

They don't, technically. However, precedence wields extraordinary social and political power. Many of the rules and institutions in our government exist on the basis of precedence. At present, the president shut down the government because he does not get his way. That runs derelict to the basic principles of governance in this country. If the president can go around Congress and still win, then what is this country?

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29056
Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:41 am

Purpelia wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
No. They shouldn't give him the wall. The wall is useless and too damn expensive.

On top of that, that sets a precedent that the President can just shut down goverment whenever congress doesnt roll over on command.

This is Trump's fault for starting the shutdown.

Precedents do not give people the right to do things. They merely demonstrate the flaws in the system that allowed them to occur. Why people cherish them rather than seeing them as a call for reform is anyone's guess.


They don't give them the right but they do give the illusion of giveing the right.

Beacuse now any president who wants a thing that congress doesnt want will just do the same thing safe in the thought that congress will cave and give them what they want.

The worst part is that congress might believe in that illusion.

Giveing in to a bully's demands is a bad thing to do, do not give Trump an inch on his wall bs.
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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48536
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:00 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Purpelia wrote:And the american republic in general.

Really the whole situation in the western world recent years reminds me eerily of the late Roman republic. The democracy is failing its people. Elites are pursuing their own insane moralisms whilst the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So they turn to populists which in turn are hated and reviled by the elites.

The scary thing is if Orban, Trump and their like are your Gracchus who is going to be your Cesar. In my lifetime we will probably find out.


this sounds like a job for me

now if only I had American citizenship

Even if you had American citizenship you still couldn’t be president because you where not born in the US or born to American citizens
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
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>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48536
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:01 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Democrats AND Republicans.
Remember, the shutdown started when republicans had a majority.


its how its perceived that matters

Democrats are being blamed for stalling now, the voters have a short memory they only remember how things look like at the tail end

Actually the majority of voters are blaming Trump and he’s losing support from his base
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
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Fartsniffage
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29757
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:19 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Purpelia wrote:And the american republic in general.

Really the whole situation in the western world recent years reminds me eerily of the late Roman republic. The democracy is failing its people. Elites are pursuing their own insane moralisms whilst the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So they turn to populists which in turn are hated and reviled by the elites.

The scary thing is if Orban, Trump and their like are your Gracchus who is going to be your Cesar. In my lifetime we will probably find out.


this sounds like a job for me

now if only I had American citizenship


Image

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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39859
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:20 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
this sounds like a job for me

now if only I had American citizenship

Even if you had American citizenship you still couldn’t be president because you where not born in the US or born to American citizens


Where in the Constitution does it say your citizenship has to come from those sources?
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Fartsniffage
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29757
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:22 am

Vassenor wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Even if you had American citizenship you still couldn’t be president because you where not born in the US or born to American citizens


Where in the Constitution does it say your citizenship has to come from those sources?


"Natural born citizen"

It's why Arnie wasn't President.
Last edited by Fartsniffage on Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7733
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:22 am

Vassenor wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Even if you had American citizenship you still couldn’t be president because you where not born in the US or born to American citizens


Where in the Constitution does it say your citizenship has to come from those sources?


He meant that one of the required conditions to become President is to have been born in the United States or to have two American citizens as parents.

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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39859
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:23 am

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Where in the Constitution does it say your citizenship has to come from those sources?


He meant that one of the required conditions to become President is to have been born in the United States or to have two American citizens as parents.


Yes, and where is that enumerated?
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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:25 am

Vassenor wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
He meant that one of the required conditions to become President is to have been born in the United States or to have two American citizens as parents.


Yes, and where is that enumerated?


Nowhere actually.
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Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7733
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:26 am

Vassenor wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
He meant that one of the required conditions to become President is to have been born in the United States or to have two American citizens as parents.


Yes, and where is that enumerated?


Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the United States' Constitution.

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Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17548
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:30 am

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Where in the Constitution does it say your citizenship has to come from those sources?


He meant that one of the required conditions to become President is to have been born in the United States or to have two American citizens as parents.


Or to have been an American citizen in 1789, though that one hasn't come up for a while.

And maybe also all of the other categories under §1401, who are citizens at birth, not naturalized, but none of them have yet gotten a case to the Supreme Court to establish if they're "natural-born", whatever the fuck that means. Actually, "have two American citizens has parents" is also in that condition.


For reference, all of the following are US citizens from birth (and hence not naturalized citizens):

Anyone born in the US and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
Member of Native American tribes born in the US.
Anyone born outside the US and her possessions to two American citizen parents, one of whom had previously lived in the US.
Anyone born outside the US and her possessions to an American citizen who'd spent a continuous year physically present in the US/outlying possessions and a US national.
Anyone born in an outlying possession of the US with one parent who is an American citizen who had spent a continuous year physically present in the US/outlying possessions at any time prior to their birth.
Anyone under the age of 5 found in the United States who can't be conclusively shown to have been born outside the United States by their 21st birthday.
Anyone born on or after the Christmas Eve 1952, outside the United States, with an American citizen parent who had previously spent a total of 5 years in the United States, at least two of them after their 14th birthday, including periods spent serving in the US armed forces, employed by the US government, or employed by an international organisation of which the United States is a member, even if that time is physically spent abroad.
Anyone born before noon EST on the 24th of May 1934 whose mother was a citizen who had previously resided in the United States.
Last edited by Salandriagado on Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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