US Government Shutdown- It's Over!... For Now

[Kannap]

No they can't, you don't just refuse an order. My brother is in the military, if he refused an order he thought was illegal he'd be charged with treason and executed or sent to military prison.

So he was given an order to shoot people in Philadelphia or shoot illegal immigrants as the border he'd have to go "Yes general." and do it?

Surely you're going to explain to us why you think the U.S. military would have orders to shoot Philadelphians or immigrants at the border.

[San Lumen]

No he wouldn't. If your brother told you that--assuming he is real--he is either lying to you or is getting his ass kicked for not paying attention in training.

Obviously you know nothing about the military.

so if he was given an order to shoot people in Philadelphia or fire upon illegal immigrants he'd have to say yes without hesitation?

A co worker of mine is in the National Guard and she told me orders can absolutely be refused if they are illegal as have friends of mine in the Army

[San Lumen]

So he was given an order to shoot people in Philadelphia or shoot illegal immigrants as the border he'd have to go "Yes general." and do it?

Surely you're going to explain to us why you think the U.S. military would have orders to shoot Philadelphians or immigrants at the border.

It was a hypothetical

[Heloin]

If done in masse you can't court marshal everyone

Actually you can

Hypothetically if every single member of all armed forces said no at once it'd be quite difficult to.

[Dresderstan]

Obviously you know nothing about the military.

so if he was given an order to shoot people in Philadelphia or fire upon illegal immigrants he'd have to say yes without hesitation?

A co worker of mine is in the National Guard and she told me orders can absolutely be refused if they are illegal.

If he wants to live yes.

>National guard

Ha don't make me laugh, those guys are nothing.

[Big Jim P]

But they where not. Which is my fucking point. The military isn’t going to ignore an order to fire on illegals attempting to cross the border.

And that would be a legal order? There would be massive public outcry and support for the military would drop like a stone thrown in water.

Public outcry and support have nothing to do with whether the order would be legal or not.

[Kannap]

But they where not. Which is my fucking point. The military isn’t going to ignore an order to fire on illegals attempting to cross the border.

And that would be a legal order? There would be massive public outcry and support for the military would drop like a stone thrown in water.

1. The legality of the order isn't what Therm is debating here. Therm is saying the military would obey the order, legal or not.
2. There would be public outcry by people who already don't support the military - I assure you people who firmly support the military will support the military more and people who firmly oppose the military will oppose the military more. The only thing that would charge is people with moderate opinions on the military would probably pick a side.

[Telconi]

Actually you can

Hypothetically if every single member of all armed forces said no at once it'd be quite difficult to.

The military isn't a hive mind though, there's folks in there who'd support such moves.

[Thermodolia]

No he wouldn't. If your brother told you that--assuming he is real--he is either lying to you or is getting his ass kicked for not paying attention in training.

Obviously you know nothing about the military.

You aren’t going to be executed for not following orders dude. Court-martialed and imprisonment is what you’d get. Again this is dependent on the severity of the order disobeyed. Sometimes an Article-15 is all that will happen

[Wallenburg]

No he wouldn't. If your brother told you that--assuming he is real--he is either lying to you or is getting his ass kicked for not paying attention in training.

Obviously you know nothing about the military.

Says the pot to the kettle.

It's not treason to refuse an illegal order. In fact, it's rarely treason not to follow any order. It'll get you court marshaled and thrown in jail, but it's not treason. Some people need to learn the difference between insubordination and treason.

As soon as I sent the post I knew I'd mistyped, I meant insubordination. Though Lumen's ignoring my posts anyway so it hardly matters.

Regardless, if you're going about refusing direct orders from up high then up high isn't going to treat you well.

I should also note that refusing to follow illegal orders is, definitively, not insubordination. Of course, that doesn't mean that a boot won't get put through the grinder and spat out if he were to refuse illegal orders. The speculation here seems to revolve more around the refusal occurring among high-ranking officers who simply do not relay the illegal commands.

[Kannap]

Surely you're going to explain to us why you think the U.S. military would have orders to shoot Philadelphians or immigrants at the border.

It was a hypothetical

Bad hypothetical is a bad hypothetical.

[Telconi]

And that would be a legal order? There would be massive public outcry and support for the military would drop like a stone thrown in water.

1. The legality of the order isn't what Therm is debating here. Therm is saying the military would obey the order, legal or not.
2. There would be public outcry by people who already don't support the military - I assure you people who firmly support the military will support the military more and people who firmly oppose the military will oppose the military more. The only thing that would charge is people with moderate opinions on the military would probably pick a side.

Your second point is quite broadly true, most issues these days seem to simply polarize than to create any consensus.

[San Lumen]

so if he was given an order to shoot people in Philadelphia or fire upon illegal immigrants he'd have to say yes without hesitation?

A co worker of mine is in the National Guard and she told me orders can absolutely be refused if they are illegal.

If he wants to live yes.

>National guard

Ha don't make me laugh, those guys are nothing.

And you think the Mayor or Governor or Congress would have no issue and would just go ok do it? And the Philadelphia PD wouldn't arrest those firing upon people? I doubt it. Such an order would be refused I can assure you despite having never served in the armed forces.

[Heloin]

Hypothetically if every single member of all armed forces said no at once it'd be quite difficult to.

The military isn't a hive mind though, there's folks in there who'd support such moves.

I'm not supporting Lumen's train of thought at the moment. I'm just saying it is possible if you stretch reality.

[Wallenburg]

so if he was given an order to shoot people in Philadelphia or fire upon illegal immigrants he'd have to say yes without hesitation?

A co worker of mine is in the National Guard and she told me orders can absolutely be refused if they are illegal.

If he wants to live yes.

>National guard

Ha don't make me laugh, those guys are nothing.

I must admit, it is a slightly entertaining notion that a soldier would be summarily executed by his superior for, say, not tidying his quarters on time or dragging behind on a morning run.

[Telconi]

The military isn't a hive mind though, there's folks in there who'd support such moves.

I'm not supporting Lumen's train of thought at the moment. I'm just saying it is possible if you stretch reality.

Theoretically sure, but that's like saying "if every single American simultaneously drove drunk, you couldn't prosecute any of them.

[The Institute at Zero City]

There's some ignorant people here.

Treason is strictly defined by the U.S. Constitution as "levying war against [the USA], [or] adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort". Disobeying the President is never treason. On the contrary, it is required if the President issues an unlawful order. The military is not exempt from the law. Every officer and a majority of the enlisted troops know this.

A hypothetical attack by cartels is a grey area, but the military is not going to fire on a band of undocumented immigrants, whether they are claiming asylum (completely legal) or trying to enter illegally. Border patrol is a law enforcement function. The Posse Comitatus Act is the most well-known, but by no means the only, federal law restricting the domestic use of military personnel. The Defense Department is fully aware of and compliant with its legal limitations.

[Thermodolia]

If he wants to live yes.

>National guard

Ha don't make me laugh, those guys are nothing.

I must admit, it is a slightly entertaining notion that a soldier would be summarily executed by his superior for, say, not tidying his quarters on time or dragging behind on a morning run.

If that where the case I wouldn’t be here right now. Instead I got a Article-15

[Heloin]

I'm not supporting Lumen's train of thought at the moment. I'm just saying it is possible if you stretch reality.

Theoretically sure, but that's like saying "if every single American simultaneously drove drunk, you couldn't prosecute any of them.

That's basically my point.

[Cannot think of a name]

The speculation about whether the military would refuse an order is so specific and context related that it seems worthless to speculate on. The military is full of people, certainly it is full of people who would be appalled at the idea and those who are sitting up at night dreaming of the day that order comes down.

But...already the wall is only really a big deal to Trump and his most rabid of supporters

Only 28% of those polled answered that the border wall should be an immediate priority, while 19% replied it shouldn’t be an immediate priority, and 50% said it shouldn’t be a priority at all.

The country lost its shit when we fired tear gas at refugees in November. Of course, I didn't even hear of them doing it a second time just a few days ago.

Would Trump order people the military to start firing on people at the border? Sure. He's full of dumb ideas. Would someone actually do it? I don't know. Probably. Would he have the support of the country for this drastic a measure? He doesn't have the support of the country for the stupid ass shit he's already doing, so...no, no he fucking wouldn't. Would this finally be the step too far? Who knows with this asshole.

[San Lumen]

There's some ignorant people here.

Treason is strictly defined by the U.S. Constitution as "levying war against [the USA], [or] adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort". Disobeying the President is never treason. On the contrary, it is required if the President issues an unlawful order. The military is not exempt from the law. Every officer and a majority of the enlisted troops know this.

A hypothetical attack by cartels is a grey area, but the military is not going to fire on a band of undocumented immigrants, whether they are claiming asylum (completely legal) or trying to enter illegally. Border patrol is a law enforcement function. The Posse Comitatus Act is the most well-known, but by no means the only, federal law restricting the domestic use of military personnel. The Defense Department is fully aware of and compliant with its legal limitations.

This

[San Lumen]

The speculation about whether the military would refuse an order is so specific and context related that it seems worthless to speculate on. The military is full of people, certainly it is full of people who would be appalled at the idea and those who are sitting up at night dreaming of the day that order comes down.

But...already the wall is only really a big deal to Trump and his most rabid of supporters

Only 28% of those polled answered that the border wall should be an immediate priority, while 19% replied it shouldn’t be an immediate priority, and 50% said it shouldn’t be a priority at all.

The country lost its shit when we fired tear gas at refugees in November. Of course, I didn't even hear of them doing it a second time just a few days ago.

Would Trump order people the military to start firing on people at the border? Sure. He's full of dumb ideas. Would someone actually do it? I don't know. Probably. Would he have the support of the country for this drastic a measure? He doesn't have the support of the country for the stupid ass shit he's already doing, so...no, no he fucking wouldn't. Would this finally be the step too far? Who knows with this asshole.

I don’t think any military official wants to risk murder charges

[Corrian]

And that’s a price I’m willing to pay for change.

So crashing the economy? And what change are you hoping to get? Your not going to get your election reform by grounding all air travel

Yes. That's also one way to get things done. What the hell do you think we are trying to get? That's how you make change. I'd support it and if it happened soon it would literally trap me out of state right now.

[Telconi]

So crashing the economy? And what change are you hoping to get? Your not going to get your election reform by grounding all air travel

Yes. That's also one way to get things done. What the hell do you think we are trying to get? That's how you make change. I'd support it and if it happened soon it would literally trap me out of state right now.

Doing what is right is hard for folks when they're inconvenienced by it ...

[Thermodolia]

So crashing the economy? And what change are you hoping to get? Your not going to get your election reform by grounding all air travel

Yes. That's also one way to get things done. What the hell do you think we are trying to get? That's how you make change. I'd support it and if it happened soon it would literally trap me out of state right now.

Did you know that we are apparently randians? Who knew that advocating for a massive general strike makes you an an-cap