MAGAThread XV: Because Another

[Seangoli]

Sure but when it’s cheaper to make a similar network to effectively monitor the border and then more money can be tossed at broader efforts you gotta question why we’re wasting time and money on a wall

Because physical barriers are a fairly basic and effective part of keeping people out.

Not in the long term. Short term, there would be a drop. Long term, people are a hell of a lot more clever than that and would find a means of illegal entry that circumvents such systems.

It would alsondo almost jackshit for the drug trade. The amount of deugs enterring the country illegally is infinitesimally small through illegal border crossing when compared ti legal points of entry. Smuggling by foot through mules is just too inneficient. Drugs are cheap on the supply end, and getting hundreds of kilos in a bust on a single vehicle or shipment is practically nothing compared to how much they actually get through said ports.

[Seangoli]

Which is why I said I think a wall should be a part of a broader effort to reduce illegal immigration. I do not view it as the only solution.

Show that a wall (more than what we already have) is an effective deterrent, more effective then other methods of limiting illegal immigration. I am not willing to take on faith that a wall is the best use of our funds, particularly because in order for the wall to be effective the wall would need to be manned.

Cue pointing towards Medieval defenses which were notoriously bad at actually stopping an armed force in a siege (and evem worse at stopping regular people from getting in), or border fences built along much shorter borders that are easier to patrol and built to deal with short term influxes from specific sources.

A 2,000 mile long physical barrier is just about as useless as a sign that says "keep out!". It is an impractical and costly solution that is not the most effective use if resources by a longshot. There are places where a barrier certainly makes sense, such as areas with higj traffic and population where you already have a large personnel presence. In areas where you don't have such, you might as well just not have it for all the good it will do.

Barriers only slow people down, not stop them. Anybody who thinks otherwise is sorely misinformed on the nature and effectiveness of such structures. And in the areas where you do not patrol heavily, such as the areas that already exist currently without the barriers, they will not provide any major benefit over not having them.

[Seangoli]

Moving onnto a different subjwct, it seems that farmers are incredibly pissed off at Trump following his proposed cuts to the Agricultural department and soecifically farmer's insurance. Seems they were mildly willing to weather the Trade War storm under promises of fixing soon, but when it comes to actively harming their way of life and personal wellbeing, they may have a line. At least the trade war could be blamed on outside forces inadvertantly affecting them through his actions; however a direct attack on their livelihood may be a straw too far.

[Zurkerx]

Moving onnto a different subjwct, it seems that farmers are incredibly pissed off at Trump following his proposed cuts to the Agricultural department and soecifically farmer's insurance. Seems they were mildly willing to weather the Trade War storm under promises of fixing soon, but when it comes to actively harming their way of life and personal wellbeing, they may have a line. At least the trade war could be blamed on outside forces inadvertantly affecting them through his actions; however a direct attack on their livelihood may be a straw too far.

But is it the straw that breaks the camel's back? As we have seen, is core supporters are practically impossible to break. Therefore, you have to target the people that lean towards; maybe some farmers, but the question remains: will that be enough? It's going to take more in my mind.

[Druulis]

Sure but when it’s cheaper to make a similar network to effectively monitor the border and then more money can be tossed at broader efforts you gotta question why we’re wasting time and money on a wall

Because physical barriers are a fairly basic and effective part of keeping people out.

That's a strange way to spell 'racism'

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Because physical barriers are a fairly basic and effective part of keeping people out.

That's a strange way to spell 'racism'

A physical structure cannot be racist.

[Tarsonis]

That's a strange way to spell 'racism'

A physical structure cannot be racist.

This sounds like a challenge...

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

That's a strange way to spell 'racism'

A physical structure cannot be racist.

Of course it can. Not like people, by having a racist worldview, but if a structure was built with racist intent, and it has racist consequences, then that structure is racist.

In other words: words have different meanings in different context. See also: "I am cold" and "The water is cold"

Owned the libs, water cannot feel.

[Saiwania]

Theres so many more important issues than immigration. I wish we could get past that. And, tbh, illegal immigration is usually overstay of visas. The only reason to build the wall is drugs, but even then, eh. Theres better things to be done.

There is arguably nothing more important. It is changing the country and in a bad way. It is pissing off the right and backing them into a corner to unleash the proverbial wrath so to speak. Many things can be done to combat immigration from developing nations beyond a physical border that is enforced, such as just not approving as many visas anymore, and putting GPS tracking into the visas that are issued. It is imperative for the state to be able to remove people if they've overstayed.

As much as liberals hate to admit, it's simply not possible for all of the populations of the world that want to become Americans to actually do so if there is finite vacancy that our society will tolerate. Which is why I ardently believe that any immigration should be limited to people from other economically well off nations. And if too many countries become "rich" it can be limited to the current "richest" countries.

[Zurkerx]

Oh, and we seem to missed this somehow (or was mentioned at one point?), could be big in the future: Trump and his apparent relation with Deutsche Bank

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Theres so many more important issues than immigration. I wish we could get past that. And, tbh, illegal immigration is usually overstay of visas. The only reason to build the wall is drugs, but even then, eh. Theres better things to be done.

There is arguably nothing more important. It is changing the country and in a bad way. It is pissing off the right and backing them into a corner to unleash the proverbial wrath so to speak. Many things can be done to combat immigration from developing nations beyond a physical border that is enforced, such as just not approving as many visas anymore, and putting GPS tracking into the visas that are issued. It is imperative for the state to be able to remove people if they've overstayed.

As much as liberals hate to admit, it's simply not possible for all of the populations of the world that want to become Americans to actually do so if there is finite vacancy that our society will tolerate. Which is why I ardently believe that any immigration should be limited to people from other economically well off nations. And if too many countries become "rich" it can be limited to the current "richest" countries.

Do you think that visas are physical things?

So, you have nothing against immigration from the UAE, or Saudi Arabia? Those countries are quite rich. Countries like Singapore and Bahrain are quite wealthy, too.

Don't you mean 'white' when you say 'rich?

[Shanhwa]

I doubt a wall would do a thing to stop drugs from crossing.

Oh I’m sure it’ll make them work slightly harder
Key note slightly as this nothing to deal with the tunnels, boats and planes currently used. Nor does it exactly deal with the eternal fact that smuggling operations have always been good at just sneaking under the noses of customs.
I’d imagine they’d literally need to close the border from everything to even put a real dent in the drug trade

Tunnels are dealt with by explosives.

Boats are dealt with by autocannons.

Planes are dealt with by SAMs.

[Valrifell]

Oh I’m sure it’ll make them work slightly harder
Key note slightly as this nothing to deal with the tunnels, boats and planes currently used. Nor does it exactly deal with the eternal fact that smuggling operations have always been good at just sneaking under the noses of customs.
I’d imagine they’d literally need to close the border from everything to even put a real dent in the drug trade

Tunnels are dealt with by explosives.

Boats are dealt with by autocannons.

Planes are dealt with by SAMs.

The US-Mexican border is not an active warzone.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Oh I’m sure it’ll make them work slightly harder
Key note slightly as this nothing to deal with the tunnels, boats and planes currently used. Nor does it exactly deal with the eternal fact that smuggling operations have always been good at just sneaking under the noses of customs.
I’d imagine they’d literally need to close the border from everything to even put a real dent in the drug trade

Tunnels are dealt with by explosives.

Boats are dealt with by autocannons.

Planes are dealt with by SAMs.

Crimes against humanity are swiflty prosecuted by US courts.

[Goldwater]

RealClear Investigations has a story today about The Democracy Integrity Project - which employees Glenn Simpson (of Fusion GPS) and Chris Steele (author of the dossier that started it all) and thus seems to be tied to many of the stories that turned out not to be true regarding Trump/Russia conspiracy theory. This was a stunning read.

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com ... fings.html

"The group also feeds information to FBI and congressional investigators, and then tells reporters that authorities are investigating those leads. The tactic adds credibility to TDIP’s pitches, luring big media outlets to bite on stories. It mirrors the strategy federal authorities themselves deployed to secure FISA warrants to spy on the Trump campaign: citing published news reports of investigative details their informants had leaked to the media to bolster their wiretap requests."

There's no good answer to this. It's very easy to see how the media has had such high profile mistakes when journalists are being passed basically finished work in terms of investigative leads, and being faced with the decision to accept it at face value by running the story and or passing and letting someone else do it. There needs to be some real soul searching go on at the major media outlets, there has got to be a way to start turning back the damage all this has done to the trust Americans once had in the media.

[The Black Forrest]

Oh I’m sure it’ll make them work slightly harder
Key note slightly as this nothing to deal with the tunnels, boats and planes currently used. Nor does it exactly deal with the eternal fact that smuggling operations have always been good at just sneaking under the noses of customs.
I’d imagine they’d literally need to close the border from everything to even put a real dent in the drug trade

It's almost as if a wall should be part of a broader effort to reduce illegal immigration and drug trafficking.

You mean like what's already built and the fact most drugs come through legal points of entry? Do you have this image of drug caravans crossing the desert and unwatched areas?

[The Black Forrest]

Oh I’m sure it’ll make them work slightly harder
Key note slightly as this nothing to deal with the tunnels, boats and planes currently used. Nor does it exactly deal with the eternal fact that smuggling operations have always been good at just sneaking under the noses of customs.
I’d imagine they’d literally need to close the border from everything to even put a real dent in the drug trade

Tunnels are dealt with by explosives.

Boats are dealt with by autocannons.

Planes are dealt with by SAMs.

Sorry my sarcasm detector was off; could you repeat that please?

[Shanhwa]

Tunnels are dealt with by explosives.

Boats are dealt with by autocannons.

Planes are dealt with by SAMs.

The US-Mexican border is not an active warzone.

Cartels will make the country one if we don’t act fast enough. What’s your solution?

[Shanhwa]

Tunnels are dealt with by explosives.

Boats are dealt with by autocannons.

Planes are dealt with by SAMs.

Crimes against humanity are swiflty prosecuted by US courts.

So taking down highly illegal criminal objects is a crime against humanity?

[The Black Forrest]

The US-Mexican border is not an active warzone.

Cartels will make the country one if we don’t act fast enough. What’s your solution?

Considering they have been around for almost 40 years. We are doing ok.

[Farnhamia]

The US-Mexican border is not an active warzone.

Cartels will make the country one if we don’t act fast enough. What’s your solution?

You need to demonstrate how that could happen. Go from where we are now to the United States as a war zone because of drug trafficking. Remember to show your work, no skipping steps.

[The Black Forrest]

Crimes against humanity are swiflty prosecuted by US courts.

So taking down highly illegal criminal objects is a crime against humanity?

*bang bang bang bang* FREEZE POLICE!!!!!

[Shanhwa]

Cartels will make the country one if we don’t act fast enough. What’s your solution?

You need to demonstrate how that could happen. Go from where we are now to the United States as a war zone because of drug trafficking. Remember to show your work, no skipping steps.

Mexico is almost a collapsed state under control by the Cartels, with massive corruption in it’s politics due to cartel influence and bribery. You think the same thing won’t happen here if we don’t stop them now?

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

What is the difference between the Sinaloa Cartel and Purdue Pharma?

[Farnhamia]

You need to demonstrate how that could happen. Go from where we are now to the United States as a war zone because of drug trafficking. Remember to show your work, no skipping steps.

Mexico is almost a collapsed state under control by the Cartels, with massive corruption in it’s politics due to cartel influence and bribery. You think the same thing won’t happen here if we don’t stop them now?

That's not really an answer. How will the cartels turn the US into a collapsed state? I won't ask you about Mexico being what you describe, that would be pushing my luck.