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MAGAThread XV: Because Another

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Telconi
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 4:43 pm

Duhon wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Most people don't see the other side winning the presidency as "Extraordinarily depressing and revolting times"


There are sides and then there is Trump.


You're not preaching to anyone here, you can drop the goofy rhetoric.
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 4:43 pm

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
I didn't say worst ever. I said a new low. That takes into account the changes in society and morality.

Most of the worst ever are seen so due to current societal beliefs, Trump is modern and is still falling far short of them. A new low.


If you are going to go with "but social and moral context matters", then William G Harding wins hands down as having an even more corrupt administration than Trump, even if more personable.


Harding was not himself a corrupt person, though he did put into positions of power those who are. Trump is not Harding; Trump is worse.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri May 17, 2019 4:44 pm

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
I didn't say worst ever. I said a new low. That takes into account the changes in society and morality.

Most of the worst ever are seen so due to current societal beliefs, Trump is modern and is still falling far short of them. A new low.


If you are going to go with "but social and moral context matters", then William G Harding wins hands down as having an even more corrupt administration than Trump, even if more personable.


You say with the benefit of hindsight. I'll bet that hindsight with this president will have him right up there.

But either way, my original point is sound. I'll accept changing it to out of nearly 50 presidents Donald Trump is the the second lowest moment in American political history.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 4:45 pm

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Duhon wrote:
There are sides and then there is Trump.


Can you at least describe something that Trump has done that makes him so big and horrible other than shooting himself in the foot constantly with stupid policies and half-baked excuses for his moral failures that makes him as bad as both sides combined?


He existed whilst disagreeing with Duhon...
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri May 17, 2019 4:46 pm

Duhon wrote:
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
If you are going to go with "but social and moral context matters", then William G Harding wins hands down as having an even more corrupt administration than Trump, even if more personable.


Harding was not himself a corrupt person, though he did put into positions of power those who are. Trump is not Harding; Trump is worse.


Harding allowed corruption. Even if he wasn't corrupt himself, it was actually a lot worse than Trump could ever muster in 4 years in terms of corruption.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri May 17, 2019 4:47 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
If you are going to go with "but social and moral context matters", then William G Harding wins hands down as having an even more corrupt administration than Trump, even if more personable.


You say with the benefit of hindsight. I'll bet that hindsight with this president will have him right up there.

But either way, my original point is sound. I'll accept changing it to out of nearly 50 presidents Donald Trump is the the second lowest moment in American political history.


I don't think it is. Trump in 4 years has not made internment camps, institutionalized corruption, tried to force the court numbers to pack them with pro-Trump judges unlike Roosevelt, or many other things others were much, much worse at.

I would say he is a bad president, but I would not say he is the worst. At worst I'd say he is a rather mediocre president, at best I would say he has been a rather average president, despite his stupidity. Not necessarily a good president, but far from the worst.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Fri May 17, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

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Thuzbekistan
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Postby Thuzbekistan » Fri May 17, 2019 4:51 pm

Pizza Girl wrote:
Thuzbekistan wrote:But shouldnt the goal be to elect a better president rather than one with (D)?


People vote for their reasons not yours.

Yeah and the reason of "it's not [insert hated politician], so I'll vote for him even if I dont like it" is killing the country. Voting for electability is the root of all lesser of two evil votes
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Shrillland
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Postby Shrillland » Fri May 17, 2019 4:53 pm

Telconi wrote:
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Can you at least describe something that Trump has done that makes him so big and horrible other than shooting himself in the foot constantly with stupid policies and half-baked excuses for his moral failures that makes him as bad as both sides combined?


He existed whilst disagreeing with Duhon...


Well, his family separation policy(and it is his, not Obama's) has led to children being put in dog kennels, his rhetoric combined with indifference has led to marked increases in white supremacy-based violence, and his arrogance towards the idea of separation of powers is worse than all but two previous presidents(Jackson and Lincoln). I don't deny that his policies are a logical consequence of decades of political movement, but he is fairly unique in how he has attempted to carry them out and in his open hostility to those who disagree with him on a personal level.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri May 17, 2019 5:01 pm

Shrillland wrote:
Telconi wrote:
He existed whilst disagreeing with Duhon...


Well, his family separation policy(and it is his, not Obama's) has led to children being put in dog kennels, his rhetoric combined with indifference has led to marked increases in white supremacy-based violence, and his arrogance towards the idea of separation of powers is worse than all but two previous presidents(Jackson and Lincoln). I don't deny that his policies are a logical consequence of decades of political movement, but he is fairly unique in how he has attempted to carry them out and in his open hostility to those who disagree with him on a personal level.


Sure, but if anything I'd say he is at the worst within the low ranks. Somewhere between worse than W. Bush (who I would put right in the middle range) but better than either Buchanan, Harding, or Jackson.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Fri May 17, 2019 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Telconi
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:05 pm

Shrillland wrote:
Telconi wrote:
He existed whilst disagreeing with Duhon...


Well, his family separation policy(and it is his, not Obama's) has led to children being put in dog kennels, his rhetoric combined with indifference has led to marked increases in white supremacy-based violence, and his arrogance towards the idea of separation of powers is worse than all but two previous presidents(Jackson and Lincoln). I don't deny that his policies are a logical consequence of decades of political movement, but he is fairly unique in how he has attempted to carry them out and in his open hostility to those who disagree with him on a personal level.


These things make him a crummy president, they do not make him some categorically unique extra double bad man with a shit cherry on top. Crappy Presidents happen pretty often.
Last edited by Telconi on Fri May 17, 2019 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Fri May 17, 2019 5:10 pm

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Duhon wrote:
There are sides and then there is Trump.


Can you at least describe something that Trump has done that makes him so big and horrible other than shooting himself in the foot constantly with stupid policies and half-baked excuses for his moral failures that makes him as bad as both sides combined?


There are 2 really big ones.

1) Instituted a policy of seperating children from their parents at the border. The paper trail of thousands of them has been lost, and they live in metal cages and are made to do what has been described as slave labour. A completely vindictive, unnecessary and deeply unjust policy that can only be compared to something as vast as internments in ww2 or mistreatment of native people's in the 19th century.

2) He vetoed a bipartisan bill popular with both sides to stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, who are using American weapons to perpetrate what the UN calls a genocide in Yemen. American weapons keep cropping up stories about the Saudis deliberately targeting civilian buildings like schools, hospitals and a port where about a quarter of the nation's food imports go through, causing mass famine.

This isn't mere aiding of genocide because zeitgeist or politics- he personally took it upon himself to veto a measure that's even popular among his own voters, approved by this bitterly divided Congress, that would have seriously dented the capacity of the perpetrator of genocide and famine to do so.

Those 2 are the truely, uniquely terrible things that he has done off the top of my head.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Cekoviu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri May 17, 2019 5:16 pm

Chan Island wrote:
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Can you at least describe something that Trump has done that makes him so big and horrible other than shooting himself in the foot constantly with stupid policies and half-baked excuses for his moral failures that makes him as bad as both sides combined?


There are 2 really big ones.

1) Instituted a policy of seperating children from their parents at the border. The paper trail of thousands of them has been lost, and they live in metal cages and are made to do what has been described as slave labour. A completely vindictive, unnecessary and deeply unjust policy that can only be compared to something as vast as internments in ww2 or mistreatment of native people's in the 19th century.

Playing devil's advocate here, though I don't like Trump - as far as I know, this policy was not instituted by Trump or his administration. It was already present.
2) He vetoed a bipartisan bill popular with both sides to stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, who are using American weapons to perpetrate what the UN calls a genocide in Yemen. American weapons keep cropping up stories about the Saudis deliberately targeting civilian buildings like schools, hospitals and a port where about a quarter of the nation's food imports go through, causing mass famine.

This isn't mere aiding of genocide because zeitgeist or politics- he personally took it upon himself to veto a measure that's even popular among his own voters, approved by this bitterly divided Congress, that would have seriously dented the capacity of the perpetrator of genocide and famine to do so.

Those 2 are the truely, uniquely terrible things that he has done off the top of my head.

Yeah, that one is a huge issue.
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Postby Ifreann » Fri May 17, 2019 5:18 pm

Duhon wrote:
Thuzbekistan wrote:But shouldnt the goal be to elect a better president rather than one with (D)?


I sincerely doubt any of the tweleventyzillion candidates now running to become the Democratic nominee could be worse than Trump (or Pence for that matter). Hell, even Bill Weld is guaranteed to be a better president than Trump is, simply by not being Trump.

I'd be a better choice, and I'm ineligible.
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 5:23 pm

Thuzbekistan wrote:
Pizza Girl wrote:
People vote for their reasons not yours.

Yeah and the reason of "it's not [insert hated politician], so I'll vote for him even if I dont like it" is killing the country. Voting for electability is the root of all lesser of two evil votes


And you'd have a point here, were Trump a normal politician.

He's not.

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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 5:26 pm

Anyway, speaking of choices: war with another Middle Eastern nation is aloft and wafting in the air. As a hypothetical, should the US choose to go to war against Iran (over lies, none at all, or because John Bolton's twitching mustache said so), what would happen in the next ten years?

Prognosticate.

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Fri May 17, 2019 5:28 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
There are 2 really big ones.

1) Instituted a policy of seperating children from their parents at the border. The paper trail of thousands of them has been lost, and they live in metal cages and are made to do what has been described as slave labour. A completely vindictive, unnecessary and deeply unjust policy that can only be compared to something as vast as internments in ww2 or mistreatment of native people's in the 19th century.

Playing devil's advocate here, though I don't like Trump - as far as I know, this policy was not instituted by Trump or his administration. It was already present.
2) He vetoed a bipartisan bill popular with both sides to stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, who are using American weapons to perpetrate what the UN calls a genocide in Yemen. American weapons keep cropping up stories about the Saudis deliberately targeting civilian buildings like schools, hospitals and a port where about a quarter of the nation's food imports go through, causing mass famine.

This isn't mere aiding of genocide because zeitgeist or politics- he personally took it upon himself to veto a measure that's even popular among his own voters, approved by this bitterly divided Congress, that would have seriously dented the capacity of the perpetrator of genocide and famine to do so.

Those 2 are the truely, uniquely terrible things that he has done off the top of my head.

Yeah, that one is a huge issue.


1) That's just not true though. The entire narrative that Obama instituted the policy is entirely a fabrication. We know this on the surface because it wasn't done under him, and not done under Trump for the first several months of his term, but also because the Trump administration initially boasted it was their idea... for a few days until they realised how incredibly unpopular the policy was. And that is when they started talking about it being an Obama policy. Which was blatantly untrue.

But Trump lies all the time, so nothing new. And nothing new for presidents either, which why I didn't mention it (even though I would rank his undermining of the very idea of an objective truth to be one of his worst sins).

2) It's so depressing how little we talk about it to be honest. It's so repulsive, so evil, and so universally unpopular... yet, rarely does somebody in the media talk about it. And it's really special because while past presidents sold weapons to bad people, they tended to do so secretly (and caused a scandal when caught). And had the excuse of the global struggle of the cold war. And at least had Congress onboard with the plan. Trump doesn't have any of those excuses, yet he did it anyway. Makes you sick.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Shrillland
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Shrillland » Fri May 17, 2019 5:34 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
There are 2 really big ones.

1) Instituted a policy of seperating children from their parents at the border. The paper trail of thousands of them has been lost, and they live in metal cages and are made to do what has been described as slave labour. A completely vindictive, unnecessary and deeply unjust policy that can only be compared to something as vast as internments in ww2 or mistreatment of native people's in the 19th century.

Playing devil's advocate here, though I don't like Trump - as far as I know, this policy was not instituted by Trump or his administration. It was already present.


Not quite. Separating children from adults had only ever been done in extraordinary, and quite rare, circumstances when there was no possible way to prove that the adults were parents or in any way possible legal guardians(in such cases, the adults were often human traffickers). It wasn't just done to anyone who may have crossed illegally or even showed up at the border seeking asylum like it's been used in recent years.
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Telconi
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:35 pm

Duhon wrote:
Thuzbekistan wrote:Yeah and the reason of "it's not [insert hated politician], so I'll vote for him even if I dont like it" is killing the country. Voting for electability is the root of all lesser of two evil votes


And you'd have a point here, were Trump a normal politician.

He's not.

You keep saying this, and yet can't provide any actual reason he isn't. This is literally just you acting like your disagreement is somehow a travesty.
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 5:38 pm

Telconi wrote:
Duhon wrote:
And you'd have a point here, were Trump a normal politician.

He's not.

You keep saying this, and yet can't provide any actual reason he isn't. This is literally just you acting like your disagreement is somehow a travesty.


I don't have to prove anything about politics to you.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:40 pm

Duhon wrote:
Telconi wrote: You keep saying this, and yet can't provide any actual reason he isn't. This is literally just you acting like your disagreement is somehow a travesty.


I don't have to prove anything about politics to you.


Of course not, but being a liar is bad to people who aren't me as well.
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ANTI:
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"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 5:45 pm

Telconi wrote:
Duhon wrote:
I don't have to prove anything about politics to you.


Of course not, but being a liar is bad to people who aren't me as well.


You go on as if every politician would do the things Trump does if any of them were in Trump's position. So what would it matter if I marshal reams of truth? You'll just dismiss them -- and besides, Shrill and Chan have made headway on Trump being, well, abnormal.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:49 pm

Duhon wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Of course not, but being a liar is bad to people who aren't me as well.


You go on as if every politician would do the things Trump does if any of them were in Trump's position. So what would it matter if I marshal reams of truth? You'll just dismiss them -- and besides, Shrill and Chan have made headway on Trump being, well, abnormal.


They've made headway on him being crappy, but a president being crappy is far from abnormal.
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PRO:
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ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Chan Island
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Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Fri May 17, 2019 5:51 pm

Telconi wrote:
Duhon wrote:
You go on as if every politician would do the things Trump does if any of them were in Trump's position. So what would it matter if I marshal reams of truth? You'll just dismiss them -- and besides, Shrill and Chan have made headway on Trump being, well, abnormal.


They've made headway on him being crappy, but a president being crappy is far from abnormal.


So when has a president defied Congress in order to continue selling weapons to people committing genocide before?
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Duhon
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Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Fri May 17, 2019 5:53 pm

Telconi wrote:
Duhon wrote:
You go on as if every politician would do the things Trump does if any of them were in Trump's position. So what would it matter if I marshal reams of truth? You'll just dismiss them -- and besides, Shrill and Chan have made headway on Trump being, well, abnormal.


They've made headway on him being crappy, but a president being crappy is far from abnormal.


...and this is why I'm not cottoning down to becoming a sitcom archnemesis the way San Lumen became.

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Thuzbekistan
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Founded: Dec 29, 2017
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Postby Thuzbekistan » Fri May 17, 2019 5:55 pm

Duhon wrote:
Thuzbekistan wrote:Yeah and the reason of "it's not [insert hated politician], so I'll vote for him even if I dont like it" is killing the country. Voting for electability is the root of all lesser of two evil votes


And you'd have a point here, were Trump a normal politician.

He's not.

Hes not better than most presidents, but he isnt the worst we've had. (Looking at you Buchanan)
Proud Member of The Western Isles, the Best RP region on NS.
An RP I'm Proud of: Orsandian Civil War
An INTJ, -A/-T

Economic Left/Right: -5.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.72

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