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VoVoDoCo
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1470
Founded: Sep 07, 2017
Anarchy

Postby VoVoDoCo » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:55 am

The New California Republic wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:I demand you, The New California Republic, to log off of NationStates and never log back on again. Will you? No. Because doing so is voluntary, whether or not I demand it. The use of the word "demand" is loaded to get a particular reaction. And it worked.

PS I wasn't flamming when I told you to never log back on, it was just an example. :hug:

The difference here is that you don't really have leverage over me. If my refusal to log out had consequences related to my employment, then that demand very much would be different from volunteering to log out and never log back in again.

Existence of leverage=/=Involuntary

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129801
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:57 am

Caracasus wrote:
Ifreann wrote:I'm sure Hungarian landlords, banks, and utilities providers will be only too happy to push their bills back three years until their customers finally get their overtime pay.


And I'm sure that companies will pay additional interest on the wages and go out of their way to track down temporary staff from 3 years ago.

Oh, no doubt.


Trumptonium1 wrote:
Ifreann wrote:I'm sure Hungarian landlords, banks, and utilities providers will be only too happy to push their bills back three years until their customers finally get their overtime pay.


I'm sure most Hungarians don't care, because unlike the West, almost everybody in Hungary is a freehold homeowner.

Utilities such as electricity which is just 11 cents per kwh, one third less than in Germany and half of Portugal?

And do you really think the economic situation in Hungary is so precarious that people work overtime to pay for things like electricity and rent? lmao

What they might spend their overtime pay on is beside the point. If workers can be told to wait three years before getting their full wages then surely they can turn around and tell companies to wait three years before getting their full payment for any goods or services.
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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:57 am

The Grims wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:I demand you, The New California Republic, to log off of NationStates and never log back on again. Will you? No. Because doing so is voluntary, whether or not I demand it. The use of the word "demand" is loaded to get a particular reaction. And it worked.

PS I wasn't flamming when I told you to never log back on, it was just an example. :hug:

You are not his employer. When an employer makes a legal demand and you refuse your employer can fire you.


Except it's voluntary.

Khataiy wrote:Which country has huge protests due to failed policies France or Hungry? This isn't slavery and the hate over this is ridiculous


Mainstream media trying to deflect attention, is all. Best thing they can do is find is 2000 socialist morons screeching in Budapest.

Literally on the same day. They're running out of things to blow out of proportion and don't have any ammunition to stop the worldwide right-turn.
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The New California Republic
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:57 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The difference here is that you don't really have leverage over me. If my refusal to log out had consequences related to my employment, then that demand very much would be different from volunteering to log out and never log back in again.

Existence of leverage=/=Involuntary

Having and using leverage over someone does affect whether an act is voluntary or not. After a certain point it is coercion.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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Khataiy
Minister
 
Posts: 2387
Founded: Apr 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Khataiy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:58 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
The Grims wrote:You are not his employer. When an employer makes a legal demand and you refuse your employer can fire you.


Except it's voluntary.

Khataiy wrote:Which country has huge protests due to failed policies France or Hungry? This isn't slavery and the hate over this is ridiculous


Mainstream media trying to deflect attention, is all. Best thing they can do is find is 2000 socialist morons screeching in Budapest.

Literally on the same day. They're running out of things to blow out of proportion and don't have any ammunition to stop the worldwide right-turn.

I don't doubt that at all this is a clear attempt to take attention away from French failures with their policies

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Republic of Turbin
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 148
Founded: Mar 16, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Republic of Turbin » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:59 am

I mean this guys had repeatedly treaded the line of dictator which is porbably why the EU placed sanctions on the country.As for the political landscape of Hungary I don’t really know how it is. As for what could be done idk voters will vote against the ruling party or maybe the courts will interve- Oh wait this dude has put government survailence over the judicial system.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... story.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... e-45498514
Idk what’ll happen maybe those protests will do something ,but someone who is having athouritarian aspirations would probably do anything to keep his powers.At least voters will vote.

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The New California Republic
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:59 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
The Grims wrote:You are not his employer. When an employer makes a legal demand and you refuse your employer can fire you.


Except it's voluntary.

Quote from BBC News:

New rules mean companies can demand up to 400 hours of overtime a year and delay payment for it for three years.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Novus Wrepland
Attaché
 
Posts: 83
Founded: Nov 24, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus Wrepland » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:01 am

Khataiy wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
Except it's voluntary.



Mainstream media trying to deflect attention, is all. Best thing they can do is find is 2000 socialist morons screeching in Budapest.

Literally on the same day. They're running out of things to blow out of proportion and don't have any ammunition to stop the worldwide right-turn.

I don't doubt that at all this is a clear attempt to take attention away from French failures with their policies

Polling indicates the policy is extremely unpopular. Specifically by 83 per cent of the population is opposed.
Last edited by Novus Wrepland on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:03 am

Ifreann wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
And I'm sure that companies will pay additional interest on the wages and go out of their way to track down temporary staff from 3 years ago.

Oh, no doubt.


Trumptonium1 wrote:
I'm sure most Hungarians don't care, because unlike the West, almost everybody in Hungary is a freehold homeowner.

Utilities such as electricity which is just 11 cents per kwh, one third less than in Germany and half of Portugal?

And do you really think the economic situation in Hungary is so precarious that people work overtime to pay for things like electricity and rent? lmao

What they might spend their overtime pay on is beside the point. If workers can be told to wait three years before getting their full wages then surely they can turn around and tell companies to wait three years before getting their full payment for any goods or services.


No it is very relevant, because to most people in Hungary these payments will matter little. You're making a comparison that doesn't make sense, in order to exaggerate a point you don't have.

Can they tell companies to wait three years? What companies, though? Buying a shirt and paying for it 3 years later is not remotely equivalent to doing work voluntary work and getting paid x time later. More like having a quota of 20kwh a day from your electric provider and using 22 one day.

Besides this is only an option. Just like it's within the Queen's Royal Prerogative to dissolve Parliament in the UK and how Trump can launch a nuke on Beijing tomorrow morning if he wants. The Hungarian labour market is extremely tight, wages are growing at over 10% a year and frankly if any Hungarian has any problem with their employer they can simply leave. Most Hungarians own their own homes and don't have anything like rent or mortgage to worry about. Stop blowing this out of proportion. The chances of this option, however stupid it is, actually being used, is pretty small.
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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:06 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
Except it's voluntary.

Quote from BBC News:

New rules mean companies can demand up to 400 hours of overtime a year and delay payment for it for three years.


Does the BBC have a source for its claim which differs from the ink on the Act, and can BBC provide an explanation for why they are providing a different perspective on the bill than Financial Times, WSJ and Hungarian media outlets, and can the BBC explain why it hasn't offered anything other than rhetoric, like a quote from the Act rather than filling its article with quotes from leftist politicians and trade union reps?

No, no and no.

Aight.

I provided links from FT above which say different.
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Holy Tedalonia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9373
Founded: Nov 14, 2016
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Holy Tedalonia » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:09 am

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but isn’t demand extra workdays without extra time pay just normal workdays...?
Last edited by Holy Tedalonia on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129801
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:10 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Oh, no doubt.



What they might spend their overtime pay on is beside the point. If workers can be told to wait three years before getting their full wages then surely they can turn around and tell companies to wait three years before getting their full payment for any goods or services.


No it is very relevant, because to most people in Hungary these payments will matter little. You're making a comparison that doesn't make sense, in order to exaggerate a point you don't have.

Can they tell companies to wait three years? What companies, though? Buying a shirt and paying for it 3 years later is not remotely equivalent to doing work voluntary work and getting paid x time later.

Seems to me that "You will receive full payment in three years" and "You will receive full payment in three years" are very much equivalent, even when one is in reference to payment for labour and another is in reference to payment for a t-shirt, or groceries, or a big bag of jelly dicks.

More like having a quota of 20kwh a day from your electric provider and using 22 one day.

Besides this is only an option. Just like it's within the Queen's Royal Prerogative to dissolve Parliament in the UK and how Trump can launch a nuke on Beijing tomorrow morning if he wants. The Hungarian labour market is extremely tight, wages are growing at over 10% a year and frankly if any Hungarian has any problem with their employer they can simply leave. Most Hungarians own their own homes and don't have anything like rent or mortgage to worry about. Stop blowing this out of proportion. The chances of this option, however stupid it is, actually being used, is pretty small.

Then why is it being made an option at all?
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He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
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The New California Republic
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:14 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:I provided links from FT above which say different.

Because paywalled sources are useful... :eyebrow:
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7447
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:15 am

Ifreann wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
No it is very relevant, because to most people in Hungary these payments will matter little. You're making a comparison that doesn't make sense, in order to exaggerate a point you don't have.

Can they tell companies to wait three years? What companies, though? Buying a shirt and paying for it 3 years later is not remotely equivalent to doing work voluntary work and getting paid x time later.

Seems to me that "You will receive full payment in three years" and "You will receive full payment in three years" are very much equivalent, even when one is in reference to payment for labour and another is in reference to payment for a t-shirt, or groceries, or a big bag of jelly dicks.

More like having a quota of 20kwh a day from your electric provider and using 22 one day.

Besides this is only an option. Just like it's within the Queen's Royal Prerogative to dissolve Parliament in the UK and how Trump can launch a nuke on Beijing tomorrow morning if he wants. The Hungarian labour market is extremely tight, wages are growing at over 10% a year and frankly if any Hungarian has any problem with their employer they can simply leave. Most Hungarians own their own homes and don't have anything like rent or mortgage to worry about. Stop blowing this out of proportion. The chances of this option, however stupid it is, actually being used, is pretty small.

Then why is it being made an option at all?


One involves people who sell their labour, the other involves commerce. It's blatantly clear the hungariam government sides with the financial elite at the expense of the workers.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Neutraligon
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 31572
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:21 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The difference here is that you don't really have leverage over me. If my refusal to log out had consequences related to my employment, then that demand very much would be different from volunteering to log out and never log back in again.

Existence of leverage=/=Involuntary

I have a gun to your head telling you I will shoot you unless you give me all your money. You hand it over. Did you hand over the money voluntarily?
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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23646
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:23 am

Neutraligon wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:Existence of leverage=/=Involuntary

I have a gun to your head telling you I will shoot you unless you give me all your money. You hand it over. Did you hand over the money voluntarily?


Presumably yes, unless the gun also has mind control powers...
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Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:25 am

I love the 'voluntary arrangement' arguments. They so clearly come from someone who has never, ever had to worry about where the next meal is coming from, or the next rent payment.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:26 am

Novus Wrepland wrote:
Khataiy wrote:I don't doubt that at all this is a clear attempt to take attention away from French failures with their policies

Polling indicates the policy is extremely unpopular. Specifically by 83 per cent of the population is opposed.



"PolicyAgendaHU" is pretty dodgy, it is funded by trade unions, it releases half-year economic forecasts every 5 years (and gets them very wrong) and it publishes "living wage" predictions without explaining methodology. It has a grand team of three employees. One of them is Peter Krausz who is an adviser to the socialist opposition party MSZP.

So I'll take the punt and say the poll isn't very reliable.
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Prusenreich
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 101
Founded: Aug 15, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Prusenreich » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:27 am

Just being honest this is Hungary's issue and they can whatever law they want (as long as it doesn't directly affect another nation)
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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:29 am

Ifreann wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
No it is very relevant, because to most people in Hungary these payments will matter little. You're making a comparison that doesn't make sense, in order to exaggerate a point you don't have.

Can they tell companies to wait three years? What companies, though? Buying a shirt and paying for it 3 years later is not remotely equivalent to doing work voluntary work and getting paid x time later.

Seems to me that "You will receive full payment in three years" and "You will receive full payment in three years" are very much equivalent, even when one is in reference to payment for labour and another is in reference to payment for a t-shirt, or groceries, or a big bag of jelly dicks.


Why don't you ask your government to give you interest on tax refunds then, since companies are legally bound to pay interest on late refunds?

Or ... maybe that's not how equivalency works.

Ifreann wrote:
More like having a quota of 20kwh a day from your electric provider and using 22 one day.

Besides this is only an option. Just like it's within the Queen's Royal Prerogative to dissolve Parliament in the UK and how Trump can launch a nuke on Beijing tomorrow morning if he wants. The Hungarian labour market is extremely tight, wages are growing at over 10% a year and frankly if any Hungarian has any problem with their employer they can simply leave. Most Hungarians own their own homes and don't have anything like rent or mortgage to worry about. Stop blowing this out of proportion. The chances of this option, however stupid it is, actually being used, is pretty small.

Then why is it being made an option at all?


Don't know. Do you know why the French President has the option to name one third of the Supreme Court at will? I don't either. Governments do stupid things, water is wet.
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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129801
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:30 am

Caracasus wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Seems to me that "You will receive full payment in three years" and "You will receive full payment in three years" are very much equivalent, even when one is in reference to payment for labour and another is in reference to payment for a t-shirt, or groceries, or a big bag of jelly dicks.


Then why is it being made an option at all?


One involves people who sell their labour, the other involves commerce. It's blatantly clear the hungariam government sides with the financial elite at the expense of the workers.

`How very shocking.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
the riot
starts

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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:30 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:I provided links from FT above which say different.

Because paywalled sources are useful... :eyebrow:


Use incognito. Are you new to the internet?
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Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7447
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:32 am

Ifreann wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
One involves people who sell their labour, the other involves commerce. It's blatantly clear the hungariam government sides with the financial elite at the expense of the workers.

`How very shocking.

I know. So unlike a populist rightwing government.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Teachian
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 168
Founded: Sep 23, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Teachian » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:34 am

Feel like people are knitpicking the “slavery” part a little too much. Yeah, it’s pretty much hyperbole, given that in modern society we will (probably) never be forced to toil unpaid in horrible conditions, but debating over it stinks of semantics.

If people want to work extra hours to earn more, great for them. The most suspect part for me is the three year delay, since I don’t see the inherent necessity to it and people have pointed out a lot of what can go wrong over a three year period. There also seems to be a lack of consensus over whether the extra hours can be mandated or not. If I can choose to work extra hours, I’m fine, but if a company is telling me I’ll work extra but might not see that pay until three years later, I’m going to be pretty annoyed.
Last edited by Teachian on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23646
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:35 am

Caracasus wrote:I love the 'voluntary arrangement' arguments. They so clearly come from someone who has never, ever had to worry about where the next meal is coming from, or the next rent payment.


I love the "everyone who disagrees with me is certainly liking their caviar from a silver spoon" arguments. They so clearly come from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about whatsoever.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

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