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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:52 pm
by Petrolheadia
The Grims wrote:What happens if the company goes bankrupt a year or so after your overtime ? Are the backwages lost ?

Probably repaid with the foreclosure money, like any outstanding company debt.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:54 pm
by Petrolheadia
Sufokia wrote:
Purgatio wrote:Last I checked, slave labour means compulsory/mandatory labour, ie you are being forced to work against your voluntary will. I don't see anything in this proposal that suggests the introduction of forced labour, workers who don't like the conditions being suggested can simply not take the job in the first place. What's the big deal.

Why even allow such labor conditions if he cares about the people of Hungary?

Liking the Hungarians enough to wantt to have the economy grow?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:00 pm
by Imperialisium
the Op has already been debunked. If you want a concise explanation just zip up to my prior post.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:27 pm
by Hurdergaryp
Imperialisium wrote:the Op has already been debunked. If you want a concise explanation just zip up to my prior post.

We are talking about the same Orban who misused EU subsidies in order to build a soccer stadium in his birthplace, right? Yeah, that guy certainly loves the common Hungarian laborer.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:29 pm
by Kaggeceria
Hurdergaryp wrote:
Imperialisium wrote:the Op has already been debunked. If you want a concise explanation just zip up to my prior post.

We are talking about the same Orban who misused EU subsidies in order to build a soccer stadium in his birthplace, right? Yeah, that guy certainly loves the common Hungarian laborer.

Whataboutism.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:40 pm
by Uiiop
Kaggeceria wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:We are talking about the same Orban who misused EU subsidies in order to build a soccer stadium in his birthplace, right? Yeah, that guy certainly loves the common Hungarian laborer.

Whataboutism.

Given no one accused Hurd or his side of not caring about Hungarian laborer in the quote tree it's intriguing why you imply that happened.
Either someone misunderstood something and/or the use of "Whataboutism" is in itself an implicit Whataboutism. 2meta5me :P

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:55 pm
by The Serbian Empire
San Lumen wrote:It doesnt matter what Orban does. Hungary is a democracy in name only at this point. The election rules that his party have implemented and the gerrymandering they have done have made it impossible for them to lose their supermajority. That's not even mentioning all the other things he has done.

It almost looks like a Michigan or Wisconsin state legislature map, just made for Jobbik and Orban instead of the GOP.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:46 pm
by Novus Wrepland
Imperialisium wrote:the Op has already been debunked. If you want a concise explanation just zip up to my prior post.

If I understand correctly you merely debunked an argument which wasn’t being made. The question seems to be why the hell is there a deferment time of three years and what anterior motives might there be for it to be in there, not is it literal slavery, no?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:42 pm
by Imperialisium
Novus Wrepland wrote:
Imperialisium wrote:the Op has already been debunked. If you want a concise explanation just zip up to my prior post.

If I understand correctly you merely debunked an argument which wasn’t being made. The question seems to be why the hell is there a deferment time of three years and what anterior motives might there be for it to be in there, not is it literal slavery, no?


You misunderstand or haven't read the thread based on your response. I was debunking the seemingly literal case being made that it is slavery of some form which the OP and similar minded individuals on here were making. Additionally, I debunk how the apparent case is being made that it is being forced when it's entirely voluntary. The deferment is motivated to stimulate re-investment into the Hungarian economy and allow companies to have a reserve of liquid assets that could be used to offset costs of short term growth. There is no malicious intent here as much as everyone enjoys a good conspiracy they'll find such a thing entirely lacking.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:59 am
by Purgatio
Sufokia wrote:
Purgatio wrote:Last I checked, slave labour means compulsory/mandatory labour, ie you are being forced to work against your voluntary will. I don't see anything in this proposal that suggests the introduction of forced labour, workers who don't like the conditions being suggested can simply not take the job in the first place. What's the big deal.

Why even allow such labor conditions if he cares about the people of Hungary?


Because it makes it easier and cheaper to hire new workers by creating more flexible labour conditions. If workers understand the terms and conditions and sign up I really don't see any problems with it, especially since the alternative might be that the employer does not offer overtime work at all if he cannot afford it without the ability to delay payment of overtime wages for a temporary period of time.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:25 am
by Imperializt Russia
Imperialisium wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Unless it's a Magyar byway for employers to defer payment and for employees to wait for the interminable in unaccountable stoicism, I am going to view this proposed state of affairs as abnormal and prone to abuse.


The law basically increases the allowed amount of hours a person can legally work. Now, the employer still has to pay 1.5 the regular salary of a worker for the overtime. The only difference that this law would feasibly do is if you exceed 250 hours of overtime, from that 251st hour on wards, your employer can defer overtime payment (not regular pay, they cannot have you legally work for free, that breaks fundamental laws in Hungary; in addition if they do not pay you in three years time regardless of no longer working for the company they still have to legally cut you a cheque in back wages) for up to three years.

I hope this helps for any non-Hungarian here trying to grasp how it impacts already established Hungarian law.

If you work 251 hours overtime, you have worked all your contractual hours and been paid for them. If you are saying that the 250 hours overtime, even though it's increased, cannot be payment deferred - then you have been paid for that.

Any work you do after the 251st hour is functionally unpaid, until your employer pays it. That would certainly the case if you are a salaried worker. So if you work 258 hours of overtime - ie your obligated overtime (in which case it's not really overtime, but ok), plus one eight-hour shift of "over-overtime" beyond that, you will not be paid for that extra shift, until the company decides to pay you for it.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:31 am
by Imperializt Russia
Petrolheadia wrote:
The Grims wrote:What happens if the company goes bankrupt a year or so after your overtime ? Are the backwages lost ?

Probably repaid with the foreclosure money, like any outstanding company debt.

Pfft.

Back pay is loooooww on those kind of priority lists. If a company gets to that stage, it definitely doesn't have the money, even in liquidation, to pay off its outstanding corporate debt and employee expense.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:36 am
by Imperialisium
Imperializt Russia wrote:
Imperialisium wrote:
The law basically increases the allowed amount of hours a person can legally work. Now, the employer still has to pay 1.5 the regular salary of a worker for the overtime. The only difference that this law would feasibly do is if you exceed 250 hours of overtime, from that 251st hour on wards, your employer can defer overtime payment (not regular pay, they cannot have you legally work for free, that breaks fundamental laws in Hungary; in addition if they do not pay you in three years time regardless of no longer working for the company they still have to legally cut you a cheque in back wages) for up to three years.

I hope this helps for any non-Hungarian here trying to grasp how it impacts already established Hungarian law.

If you work 251 hours overtime, you have worked all your contractual hours and been paid for them. If you are saying that the 250 hours overtime, even though it's increased, cannot be payment deferred - then you have been paid for that.

Any work you do after the 251st hour is functionally unpaid, until your employer pays it. That would certainly the case if you are a salaried worker. So if you work 258 hours of overtime - ie your obligated overtime (in which case it's not really overtime, but ok), plus one eight-hour shift of "over-overtime" beyond that, you will not be paid for that extra shift, until the company decides to pay you for it.


You can't work 250 hours overtime in Hungary anyways...

Either way the law and reality is basically what I've stated unless Orban rewrites it in which case it's an entirely different scenario.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:42 am
by Novus Wrepland
Imperialisium wrote:
Novus Wrepland wrote:If I understand correctly you merely debunked an argument which wasn’t being made. The question seems to be why the hell is there a deferment time of three years and what anterior motives might there be for it to be in there, not is it literal slavery, no?


You misunderstand or haven't read the thread based on your response. I was debunking the seemingly literal case being made that it is slavery of some form which the OP and similar minded individuals on here were making. Additionally, I debunk how the apparent case is being made that it is being forced when it's entirely voluntary. The deferment is motivated to stimulate re-investment into the Hungarian economy and allow companies to have a reserve of liquid assets that could be used to offset costs of short term growth. There is no malicious intent here as much as everyone enjoys a good conspiracy they'll find such a thing entirely lacking.

I didn't see that case being made in the op. Anyhow likening it to slavery is not uncommon hyperbole these days given that different people in this thread are just as likely to accuse others of "being against borders!" or whatever.

It seems so, but how does that fact in any way mollify the criticism of the law? Many bad laws are made with good intentions like stimulating the economy.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of this (taken from a very credible business news site)?

Critics say the overtime law, dubbed as the "slave law" would essentially eliminate the need for employers to pay extra for overtime work, as the overtime hours could simply be offset later by off-time work. The opposition blocked the house speaker's dais and obstructed proceedings with loud whistling and jeering in an attempt to thwart the vote, leading to chaotic scenes unprecedented in parliament.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:50 am
by Risottia
Petrolheadia wrote:
The Grims wrote:What happens if the company goes bankrupt a year or so after your overtime ? Are the backwages lost ?

Probably repaid with the foreclosure money, like any outstanding company debt.

There's generally a priority order in foreclosures. At least here, the tax agency comes first, then creditor banks, then other creditors, and if there's something left that's given to the workers waiting for their wages. I would venture to guess that something similar happens in Hungary.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:22 am
by Trumptonium1
Risottia wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:Probably repaid with the foreclosure money, like any outstanding company debt.

There's generally a priority order in foreclosures. At least here, the tax agency comes first, then creditor banks, then other creditors, and if there's something left that's given to the workers waiting for their wages. I would venture to guess that something similar happens in Hungary.


Priority in the UK goes first to fixed asset creditors then to employees - followed by floating creditors then suppliers/customers/contractors/tax and finally shareholders. Since Hungary is trying to base its overtime employment law on the UK, it probably is the same there.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:45 pm
by LiberNovusAmericae
This ain't slavery, but holding an employee's overtime pay for three years is very crumby. That's for sure.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:47 pm
by Page
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:This ain't slavery, but holding an employee's overtime pay for three years is very crumby. That's for sure.


It's not slavery but it is theft. And when you factor in that many employees can either "volunteer" for overtime or volunteer to be fired, it's extortion too.