NationStates

Commie op is butthurt

Telconi wrote:

Caracasus wrote:
So basically the word voluntary covers choosing between chocolate and lemon cake as well as a rape victim 'choosing' not to struggle in the hopes that the rapist will let them live?

The way you are using the word broadly makes it meaningless.

Using a word correctly makes it meaningless?

I question your understanding of the word voluntary if you unironically think "rape victim choosing not to struggle in hopes rapist lets them live" is fucking voluntary.

Arayas wrote:Commie op is butthurt

Yeah, and?

Seriously, this is some lazy shit, yo.

Khataiy wrote:Which country has huge protests due to failed policies France or Hungary? This isn't slavery and the hate over this is ridiculous

This new thing called "both of them do".

As with the Gilets Jaunes riots, public resistance against this is short-sighted and self-defeating. The voters, as usual, want conveniences (not having Muslims working low-skilled jobs) without the necessary inconveniences (liberalization of labor laws to alleviate shortage).

Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?

Presumably because "or else you'll be fired, and there will be someone else who'd be willing to take your job and do those extra hours." There is no need for people to be so lazy. Japan for example, has the longest work hours in the world.

Saiwania wrote:

Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?

Presumably because "or else you'll be fired, and there will be someone else who'd be willing to take your job and do those extra hours." There is no need for people to be so lazy. Japan for example, has the longest work hours in the world.

And, consequently, one of the highest rates of worker suicide and employment dissatisfaction.

I honestly thought that this was an IC thread in International Incidents...

The Alma Mater wrote:So, these seem to be the disputed claims:

1. If an employee can refuse to work the extra hours without penalty or not
2. If any non-productive day in the 3 year period, including holidays, sickleave, maternityleave etc will be taken off the owed overtime.
3. If something is voluntary or not when it is decided with a gun pointed to your head.

Leaving out nr 3; does anyone have any clear answer to 1 and 2 ?

Noone ?

The Alma Mater wrote:

The Alma Mater wrote:So, these seem to be the disputed claims:

1. If an employee can refuse to work the extra hours without penalty or not
2. If any non-productive day in the 3 year period, including holidays, sickleave, maternityleave etc will be taken off the owed overtime.
3. If something is voluntary or not when it is decided with a gun pointed to your head.

Leaving out nr 3; does anyone have any clear answer to 1 and 2 ?

Noone ?

Look, people can be lazy fucks sometimes. Like me with Tony's Swiss mix. You just have to wait a bit.

Trumptonium1 wrote:For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.

The cantons of Jura and Neutchatel have minimum wages. In addition, collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation. A similar setup exists in neighbouring Austria, where collective bargaining agreements ensure a minimum amount is compensated. Occupations that lack a collective bargaining agreement have minimum compensation outlined in specific legislation.

So not exactly the bastion of free-market capitalism you were expecting.

Costa Fierro wrote:

Trumptonium1 wrote:For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.

The cantons of Jura and Neutchatel have minimum wages. In addition, collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation. A similar setup exists in neighbouring Austria, where collective bargaining agreements ensure a minimum amount is compensated. Occupations that lack a collective bargaining agreement have minimum compensation outlined in specific legislation.

So not exactly the bastion of free-market capitalism you were expecting.

... can I outsource my not-yet-done research to you?

Risottia wrote:

Sicaris wrote:
Hm? Are you trying to attack me? Accuse me?

Wow! An extra day at most on the work week. This is obviously comparable to having no rights and being transported across the ocean in a cramped ship and then worked for no pay whatsoever.

No, I'm not trying. I'm openly stating that with you earlier post you implied that being paid THREE YEARS LATER for overtime must be completely normal to you. If you think that's a personal attack, please join the chorus and report my post in Moderation.

Also, one extra day per week makes 50ish extra days per year, that is two extra average working months per year. Feel free to post your alternative maths.

I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Costa Fierro wrote:

Trumptonium1 wrote:For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.

The cantons of Jura and Neutchatel have minimum wages. In addition, collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation. A similar setup exists in neighbouring Austria, where collective bargaining agreements ensure a minimum amount is compensated. Occupations that lack a collective bargaining agreement have minimum compensation outlined in specific legislation.

So not exactly the bastion of free-market capitalism you were expecting.

Minimum compensation does not exist in Switzerland, and Jura and Neutchatel make up less than 5% of Swiss population. Collective bargaining agreements do exist, but most industries do not have such Gesamtarbeitsvertrag agreements, and there is absolutely no legislation whatsoever to ensure a minimum compensation for those. Although this isn't very relevant since those who do have bargaining agreements are typically lower-earning roles, however, neither the financial industry nor the doctor profession is governed by any GVA. There's nothing stopping UBS/Credit Suisse employing people for $1000 a year to be investment bankers or a hospital employing a doctor from Zimbabwe while paying him his wage simply converted to CFA. But they're not stupid and they won't do it.

That puts us back to the same question. The reason why any employer would withhold overtime payments for three years in Hungary is the same reason why a Swiss bank would employ a financial planner on $5000 and why Donald Trump can nuke Beijing at will tomorrow night. It's an option. It's highly unlikely to be used. And in the case of the former two, nearly everybody will be able to switch employer anyway, or at least have the relatively luxurious position of being able to deny a job offer while you search for better ones because you heard the employer is bad or the wage is bad, as neither Hungarian or Swiss workers live paycheque to paycheque unlike the US.

Trumptonium1 wrote:

Risottia wrote:No, I'm not trying. I'm openly stating that with you earlier post you implied that being paid THREE YEARS LATER for overtime must be completely normal to you. If you think that's a personal attack, please join the chorus and report my post in Moderation.

Also, one extra day per week makes 50ish extra days per year, that is two extra average working months per year. Feel free to post your alternative maths.

I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.

Imperializt Russia wrote:

Trumptonium1 wrote:
I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.

You have clearly never worked if you unironically believe that.

Imperializt Russia wrote:

Trumptonium1 wrote:
I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.

And obviously you know business well enough to say this.

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.

You have clearly never worked if you unironically believe that.

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Imperializt Russia wrote:

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
You have clearly never worked if you unironically believe that.

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As usual, no rebuttal.

Petrolheadia wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:t
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As usual, no rebuttal.

Not really surprising as I didn't think that ad hominems warrant a rebuttal.

Imperializt Russia wrote:

Trumptonium1 wrote:
I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.

A typical worker doesn't work overtime.

The average Hungarian worker works just north of 1800 hours a year, and that's on existing arrangements of 250 extra overtime hours. Or a 37.5 hour workweek. This 150 hour increase to 400 is not really going to dent those numbers, and still would put them below Greece and South Korea if all 150 were to be suddenly used for whatever reason by all employers.

Trumptonium1 wrote:

Risottia wrote:No, I'm not trying. I'm openly stating that with you earlier post you implied that being paid THREE YEARS LATER for overtime must be completely normal to you. If you think that's a personal attack, please join the chorus and report my post in Moderation.

Also, one extra day per week makes 50ish extra days per year, that is two extra average working months per year. Feel free to post your alternative maths.

I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Up to 400 hours per year is not the same as 150 though

The Grims wrote:

Trumptonium1 wrote:
I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Up to 400 hours per year is not the same as 150 though

The current limit is 250. This raises it to 400. That's an increase of 150.

Unless, for whatever reason, all of you are arguing that because of the 150 hour increase, employers who currently don't offer overtime with demand/coerce/involuntarily volunteer all their workers to suddenly work an extra 400. Maybe they didn't hear about the 250-hour law before?

I think it is absolutely absurd how everyone in this thread is acting as if just because these things are legal, it means that every business is immediately going to do this. That's absolutely absurd. If the people have a moral outcry to what a business does, they will condemn it or stop working for it which will lower profits. All this bill does is increase the ability for the invisible hand to be able to do what it must and in the end will help the national economy by allowing businesses to have more free will.

Petrolheadia wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:t
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As usual, no rebuttal.

All I did was stress the fact I was referring to a "typical" worker.

In an intentionally obnoxious way, due to your intentionally obnoxious response.