NationStates

Arkhastok wrote:I’m actually in Budapest right now and I saw some protests relating to it on the streets just then

Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.

Duhon wrote:

Arkhastok wrote:I’m actually in Budapest right now and I saw some protests relating to it on the streets just then

Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.

Hackery?

Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?

For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.

The New California Republic wrote:

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Delete FT cookies, close your browser, paste the link in incognito mode. Works for all article-limit paywalls.

I think this is where you have got really confused. FT doesn't have an "article-limit" paywall, it stops you reading any article without a subscription. Hence why your source is useless.

As a remedial measure, Tony, instead of lording it over us with your selective access, why not copypaste?

Petrolheadia wrote:

Duhon wrote:
Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.

Hackery?

Perhaps the proper word here would be "hyperbole" instead of my, well, hyperbole.

Duhon wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:I think this is where you have got really confused. FT doesn't have an "article-limit" paywall, it stops you reading any article without a subscription. Hence why your source is useless.

As a remedial measure, Tony, instead of lording it over us with your selective access, why not copypaste?

Your obsession with calling me Tony is really dumb and nonsensical. I'm not sure if you're doing it out of lack of alternatives, or because you think it's funny (where I would question your sanity), but I don't want to ask.

Trumptonium1 wrote:

Duhon wrote:
As a remedial measure, Tony, instead of lording it over us with your selective access, why not copypaste?

Your obsession with calling me Tony is really dumb and nonsensical. I'm not sure if you're doing it out of lack of alternatives, or because you think it's funny (where I would question your sanity), but I don't want to ask.

TrumpTONIum1.

Duhon wrote:

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Your obsession with calling me Tony is really dumb and nonsensical. I'm not sure if you're doing it out of lack of alternatives, or because you think it's funny (where I would question your sanity), but I don't want to ask.

TrumpTONIum1.

Very funny. ROTFLMAO, my sides are bursting.

Petrolheadia wrote:

Duhon wrote:
TrumpTONIum1.

Very funny. ROTFLMAO, my sides are bursting.

I'm not trying to.

Duhon wrote:

Arkhastok wrote:I’m actually in Budapest right now and I saw some protests relating to it on the streets just then

Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.

I’m back in my hotel now and I was in a restaurant while they were outside so I don’t know where they went haha. Didn’t get the chance to talk to them

Arkhastok wrote:

Duhon wrote:
Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.

I’m back in my hotel now and I was in a restaurant while they were outside so I don’t know where they went haha. Didn’t get the chance to talk to them

Oh poop.

Caracasus wrote:

Telconi wrote:
Yes it is, the presence of reprocussions doesn't make a voluntary choice not voluntary. and to argue otherwise is preposterous, this would essentially imply that no choice is voluntary, because all choices have reprocussions or consequences.

But there must be a scale of some description, where the repurcussions for one choice over another become so serious that you can't consider it voluntary. I mean, surely you're not suggesting that a bank clerk voluntarily hands over money to an armed robber.

They do though... it isn't a fucking reflex, it isn't their heart beating. if you open the drawyer, and stack up a bunch of money, and hand it over the course term to a person, this is voluntary action.

Telconi wrote:

Caracasus wrote:
But there must be a scale of some description, where the repurcussions for one choice over another become so serious that you can't consider it voluntary. I mean, surely you're not suggesting that a bank clerk voluntarily hands over money to an armed robber.

They do though... it isn't a fucking reflex, it isn't their heart beating. if you open the drawyer, and stack up a bunch of money, and hand it over the course term to a person, this is voluntary action.

So basically the word voluntary covers choosing between chocolate and lemon cake as well as a rape victim 'choosing' not to struggle in the hopes that the rapist will let them live?

The way you are using the word broadly makes it meaningless.

Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?

To own the EU.

Caracasus wrote:

Telconi wrote:
They do though... it isn't a fucking reflex, it isn't their heart beating. if you open the drawyer, and stack up a bunch of money, and hand it over the course term to a person, this is voluntary action.

So basically the word voluntary covers choosing between chocolate and lemon cake as well as a rape victim 'choosing' not to struggle in the hopes that the rapist will let them live?

The way you are using the word broadly makes it meaningless.

Using a word correctly makes it meaningless?

Trumptonium1 wrote:

Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?

For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.

I haven't really looked into the matter yet, but I suspect the average Swiss worker is more well-off than his Magyar counterpart. But you do bring up an interesting comparison -- let's see if it bears any weight.

Khataiy wrote:Which country has huge protests due to failed policies France or Hungry? This isn't slavery and the hate over this is ridiculous

So, your argument is France is worse so this bad thing that Hungary is doing should be ignored?

Bad things happening in other places doesn't mean we shouldn't comment on bad things happening in this place.

Telconi wrote:

Caracasus wrote:
So basically the word voluntary covers choosing between chocolate and lemon cake as well as a rape victim 'choosing' not to struggle in the hopes that the rapist will let them live?

The way you are using the word broadly makes it meaningless.

Using a word correctly makes it meaningless?

When people are implying it's OK because it is a voluntary arrangement then yeah. Kind of.

Caracasus wrote:

Telconi wrote:
Using a word correctly makes it meaningless?

When people are implying it's OK because it is a voluntary arrangement then yeah. Kind of.

So the grammatically correct use of a word, when expressing an opinion you find objectionable, makes the word meaningless?

This isn't alright. You can't just demand extra out of your workers for no good reason whatsoever. Is he trying to boost productivity for the glorious state?

Sicaris wrote:

Risottia wrote:Oh, and of course you'd find entirely normal to have your wage postponed by three years.

Hm? Are you trying to attack me? Accuse me?

Wow! An extra day at most on the work week. This is obviously comparable to having no rights and being transported across the ocean in a cramped ship and then worked for no pay whatsoever.

No, I'm not trying. I'm openly stating that with you earlier post you implied that being paid THREE YEARS LATER for overtime must be completely normal to you. If you think that's a personal attack, please join the chorus and report my post in Moderation.

Also, one extra day per week makes 50ish extra days per year, that is two extra average working months per year. Feel free to post your alternative maths.

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:

Khataiy wrote:Which country has huge protests due to failed policies France or Hungry? This isn't slavery and the hate over this is ridiculous

So, your argument is France is worse so this bad thing that Hungary is doing should be ignored?

Bad things happening in other places doesn't mean we shouldn't comment on bad things happening in this place.

It's called a blue-white-red herring, methinks.

Telconi wrote:

Caracasus wrote:When people are implying it's OK because it is a voluntary arrangement then yeah. Kind of.

So the grammatically correct use of a word, when expressing an opinion you find objectionable, makes the word meaningless?

No, stating that this is somehow OK because it is voluntary when the word voluntary would also cover deciding to hand over your valuables because someone will murder your child makes the 'this is ok because it is voluntary' argument meaningless.

So, these seem to be the disputed claims:

1. If an employee can refuse to work the extra hours without penalty or not
2. If any non-productive day in the 3 year period, including holidays, sickleave, maternityleave etc will be taken off the owed overtime.
3. If something is voluntary or not when it is decided with a gun pointed to your head.

Leaving out nr 3; does anyone have any clear answer to 1 and 2 ?

Caracasus wrote:

Telconi wrote:
So the grammatically correct use of a word, when expressing an opinion you find objectionable, makes the word meaningless?

No, stating that this is somehow OK because it is voluntary when the word voluntary would also cover deciding to hand over your valuables because someone will murder your child makes the 'this is ok because it is voluntary' argument meaningless.

It isn't okay because it's voluntary, it's simply both, separately.