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Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2727
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:18 pm

Arkhastok wrote:I’m actually in Budapest right now and I saw some protests relating to it on the streets just then


Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.

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Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10670
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:20 pm

Duhon wrote:
Arkhastok wrote:I’m actually in Budapest right now and I saw some protests relating to it on the streets just then


Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.

Hackery?
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We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
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"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:20 pm

Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?


For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.
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Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2727
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:21 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
Delete FT cookies, close your browser, paste the link in incognito mode. Works for all article-limit paywalls.

I think this is where you have got really confused. FT doesn't have an "article-limit" paywall, it stops you reading any article without a subscription. Hence why your source is useless.


As a remedial measure, Tony, instead of lording it over us with your selective access, why not copypaste?

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Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2727
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:25 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.

Hackery?


Perhaps the proper word here would be "hyperbole" instead of my, well, hyperbole.

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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:27 pm

Duhon wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I think this is where you have got really confused. FT doesn't have an "article-limit" paywall, it stops you reading any article without a subscription. Hence why your source is useless.


As a remedial measure, Tony, instead of lording it over us with your selective access, why not copypaste?


Your obsession with calling me Tony is really dumb and nonsensical. I'm not sure if you're doing it out of lack of alternatives, or because you think it's funny (where I would question your sanity), but I don't want to ask.
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Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2727
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:30 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Duhon wrote:
As a remedial measure, Tony, instead of lording it over us with your selective access, why not copypaste?


Your obsession with calling me Tony is really dumb and nonsensical. I'm not sure if you're doing it out of lack of alternatives, or because you think it's funny (where I would question your sanity), but I don't want to ask.


TrumpTONIum1.

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Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10670
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:31 pm

Duhon wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
Your obsession with calling me Tony is really dumb and nonsensical. I'm not sure if you're doing it out of lack of alternatives, or because you think it's funny (where I would question your sanity), but I don't want to ask.


TrumpTONIum1.

Very funny. ROTFLMAO, my sides are bursting.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Communism, socialism, Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, multiculturalism, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic, centre-libertarian.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2727
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:41 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:
Duhon wrote:
TrumpTONIum1.

Very funny. ROTFLMAO, my sides are bursting.


I'm not trying to.

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Arkhastok
Envoy
 
Posts: 334
Founded: Dec 31, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Arkhastok » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:43 pm

Duhon wrote:
Arkhastok wrote:I’m actually in Budapest right now and I saw some protests relating to it on the streets just then


Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.


I’m back in my hotel now and I was in a restaurant while they were outside so I don’t know where they went haha. Didn’t get the chance to talk to them

User avatar
Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2727
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:53 pm

Arkhastok wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Oh! Do comment! If you can join in some discussions with Hungarians affected by this policy, mind if you get back to us? That should be more reliable than the hackery displayed so far in thread.


I’m back in my hotel now and I was in a restaurant while they were outside so I don’t know where they went haha. Didn’t get the chance to talk to them


Oh poop.

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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23619
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:58 pm

Caracasus wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Yes it is, the presence of reprocussions doesn't make a voluntary choice not voluntary. and to argue otherwise is preposterous, this would essentially imply that no choice is voluntary, because all choices have reprocussions or consequences.


But there must be a scale of some description, where the repurcussions for one choice over another become so serious that you can't consider it voluntary. I mean, surely you're not suggesting that a bank clerk voluntarily hands over money to an armed robber.


They do though... it isn't a fucking reflex, it isn't their heart beating. if you open the drawyer, and stack up a bunch of money, and hand it over the course term to a person, this is voluntary action.
Last edited by Telconi on Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7437
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:07 pm

Telconi wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
But there must be a scale of some description, where the repurcussions for one choice over another become so serious that you can't consider it voluntary. I mean, surely you're not suggesting that a bank clerk voluntarily hands over money to an armed robber.


They do though... it isn't a fucking reflex, it isn't their heart beating. if you open the drawyer, and stack up a bunch of money, and hand it over the course term to a person, this is voluntary action.


So basically the word voluntary covers choosing between chocolate and lemon cake as well as a rape victim 'choosing' not to struggle in the hopes that the rapist will let them live?

The way you are using the word broadly makes it meaningless.
Last edited by Caracasus on Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129769
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:18 pm

Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?

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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23619
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:27 pm

Caracasus wrote:
Telconi wrote:
They do though... it isn't a fucking reflex, it isn't their heart beating. if you open the drawyer, and stack up a bunch of money, and hand it over the course term to a person, this is voluntary action.


So basically the word voluntary covers choosing between chocolate and lemon cake as well as a rape victim 'choosing' not to struggle in the hopes that the rapist will let them live?

The way you are using the word broadly makes it meaningless.


Using a word correctly makes it meaningless?
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2727
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:35 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?


For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.


I haven't really looked into the matter yet, but I suspect the average Swiss worker is more well-off than his Magyar counterpart. But you do bring up an interesting comparison -- let's see if it bears any weight.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30025
Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:41 pm

Khataiy wrote:Which country has huge protests due to failed policies France or Hungry? This isn't slavery and the hate over this is ridiculous


So, your argument is France is worse so this bad thing that Hungary is doing should be ignored?

Bad things happening in other places doesn't mean we shouldn't comment on bad things happening in this place.
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Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7437
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:56 pm

Telconi wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
So basically the word voluntary covers choosing between chocolate and lemon cake as well as a rape victim 'choosing' not to struggle in the hopes that the rapist will let them live?

The way you are using the word broadly makes it meaningless.


Using a word correctly makes it meaningless?

When people are implying it's OK because it is a voluntary arrangement then yeah. Kind of.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

User avatar
Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23619
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:01 pm

Caracasus wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Using a word correctly makes it meaningless?

When people are implying it's OK because it is a voluntary arrangement then yeah. Kind of.


So the grammatically correct use of a word, when expressing an opinion you find objectionable, makes the word meaningless?
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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The South Falls
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11109
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:15 pm

This isn't alright. You can't just demand extra out of your workers for no good reason whatsoever. Is he trying to boost productivity for the glorious state?
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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51782
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Risottia » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:57 pm

Sicaris wrote:
Risottia wrote:Oh, and of course you'd find entirely normal to have your wage postponed by three years.


Hm? Are you trying to attack me? Accuse me?

Wow! An extra day at most on the work week. This is obviously comparable to having no rights and being transported across the ocean in a cramped ship and then worked for no pay whatsoever.

No, I'm not trying. I'm openly stating that with you earlier post you implied that being paid THREE YEARS LATER for overtime must be completely normal to you. If you think that's a personal attack, please join the chorus and report my post in Moderation.

Also, one extra day per week makes 50ish extra days per year, that is two extra average working months per year. Feel free to post your alternative maths.
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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51782
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Risottia » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:59 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Which country has huge protests due to failed policies France or Hungry? This isn't slavery and the hate over this is ridiculous


So, your argument is France is worse so this bad thing that Hungary is doing should be ignored?

Bad things happening in other places doesn't mean we shouldn't comment on bad things happening in this place.

It's called a blue-white-red herring, methinks.
Statanist through and through.
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Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
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Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7437
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:12 am

Telconi wrote:
Caracasus wrote:When people are implying it's OK because it is a voluntary arrangement then yeah. Kind of.


So the grammatically correct use of a word, when expressing an opinion you find objectionable, makes the word meaningless?


No, stating that this is somehow OK because it is voluntary when the word voluntary would also cover deciding to hand over your valuables because someone will murder your child makes the 'this is ok because it is voluntary' argument meaningless.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16526
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:40 am

So, these seem to be the disputed claims:

1. If an employee can refuse to work the extra hours without penalty or not
2. If any non-productive day in the 3 year period, including holidays, sickleave, maternityleave etc will be taken off the owed overtime.
3. If something is voluntary or not when it is decided with a gun pointed to your head.

Leaving out nr 3; does anyone have any clear answer to 1 and 2 ?
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Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23619
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:31 am

Caracasus wrote:
Telconi wrote:
So the grammatically correct use of a word, when expressing an opinion you find objectionable, makes the word meaningless?


No, stating that this is somehow OK because it is voluntary when the word voluntary would also cover deciding to hand over your valuables because someone will murder your child makes the 'this is ok because it is voluntary' argument meaningless.


It isn't okay because it's voluntary, it's simply both, separately.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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