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Arayas
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 151
Founded: Oct 30, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Arayas » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:37 am

Commie op is butthurt
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Frievolk
Minister
 
Posts: 3368
Founded: Jun 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Frievolk » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:42 am

Telconi wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
So basically the word voluntary covers choosing between chocolate and lemon cake as well as a rape victim 'choosing' not to struggle in the hopes that the rapist will let them live?

The way you are using the word broadly makes it meaningless.


Using a word correctly makes it meaningless?

I question your understanding of the word voluntary if you unironically think "rape victim choosing not to struggle in hopes rapist lets them live" is fucking voluntary.
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Duhon
Senator
 
Posts: 4238
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:44 am

Arayas wrote:Commie op is butthurt


Yeah, and?

Seriously, this is some lazy shit, yo.

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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54836
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:19 am

Khataiy wrote:Which country has huge protests due to failed policies France or Hungary? This isn't slavery and the hate over this is ridiculous

This new thing called "both of them do".
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
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Darussalam
Minister
 
Posts: 2421
Founded: May 15, 2012
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Darussalam » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:32 am

As with the Gilets Jaunes riots, public resistance against this is short-sighted and self-defeating. The voters, as usual, want conveniences (not having Muslims working low-skilled jobs) without the necessary inconveniences (liberalization of labor laws to alleviate shortage).
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Saiwania
Post Marshal
 
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Founded: Jun 30, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Saiwania » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:39 am

Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?


Presumably because "or else you'll be fired, and there will be someone else who'd be willing to take your job and do those extra hours." There is no need for people to be so lazy. Japan for example, has the longest work hours in the world.
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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54836
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:48 am

Saiwania wrote:
Duhon wrote:Well, this is a wreck.

So if I, Magyar guy with average Magyar income, were working for a Magyar employer and he "voluntarily demanded" me to work leave-deductible overtime for 3 years without pay, why should I accept?


Presumably because "or else you'll be fired, and there will be someone else who'd be willing to take your job and do those extra hours." There is no need for people to be so lazy. Japan for example, has the longest work hours in the world.

And, consequently, one of the highest rates of worker suicide and employment dissatisfaction.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Eripme Pmurt Dlanod
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Aug 21, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Eripme Pmurt Dlanod » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:54 am

I honestly thought that this was an IC thread in International Incidents...

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17119
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:10 am

The Alma Mater wrote:So, these seem to be the disputed claims:

1. If an employee can refuse to work the extra hours without penalty or not
2. If any non-productive day in the 3 year period, including holidays, sickleave, maternityleave etc will be taken off the owed overtime.
3. If something is voluntary or not when it is decided with a gun pointed to your head.

Leaving out nr 3; does anyone have any clear answer to 1 and 2 ?


Noone :( ?
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Duhon
Senator
 
Posts: 4238
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:18 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:So, these seem to be the disputed claims:

1. If an employee can refuse to work the extra hours without penalty or not
2. If any non-productive day in the 3 year period, including holidays, sickleave, maternityleave etc will be taken off the owed overtime.
3. If something is voluntary or not when it is decided with a gun pointed to your head.

Leaving out nr 3; does anyone have any clear answer to 1 and 2 ?


Noone :( ?


Look, people can be lazy fucks sometimes. Like me with Tony's Swiss mix. You just have to wait a bit.

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Costa Fierro
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18998
Founded: Dec 09, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Costa Fierro » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:26 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.


The cantons of Jura and Neutchatel have minimum wages. In addition, collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation. A similar setup exists in neighbouring Austria, where collective bargaining agreements ensure a minimum amount is compensated. Occupations that lack a collective bargaining agreement have minimum compensation outlined in specific legislation.

So not exactly the bastion of free-market capitalism you were expecting.
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Duhon
Senator
 
Posts: 4238
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:33 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.


The cantons of Jura and Neutchatel have minimum wages. In addition, collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation. A similar setup exists in neighbouring Austria, where collective bargaining agreements ensure a minimum amount is compensated. Occupations that lack a collective bargaining agreement have minimum compensation outlined in specific legislation.

So not exactly the bastion of free-market capitalism you were expecting.


... can I outsource my not-yet-done research to you? :p

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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:51 am

Risottia wrote:
Sicaris wrote:
Hm? Are you trying to attack me? Accuse me?

Wow! An extra day at most on the work week. This is obviously comparable to having no rights and being transported across the ocean in a cramped ship and then worked for no pay whatsoever.

No, I'm not trying. I'm openly stating that with you earlier post you implied that being paid THREE YEARS LATER for overtime must be completely normal to you. If you think that's a personal attack, please join the chorus and report my post in Moderation.

Also, one extra day per week makes 50ish extra days per year, that is two extra average working months per year. Feel free to post your alternative maths.


I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.
Last edited by Trumptonium1 on Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:For the same reason a Swiss guy with an average Swiss income decided to apply for a Swiss employer knowing that in Switzerland no such thing as a minimum wage exists, yet exploitation and coercion is unlikely or nonexistent.


The cantons of Jura and Neutchatel have minimum wages. In addition, collective bargaining agreements contain clauses on minimum compensation. A similar setup exists in neighbouring Austria, where collective bargaining agreements ensure a minimum amount is compensated. Occupations that lack a collective bargaining agreement have minimum compensation outlined in specific legislation.

So not exactly the bastion of free-market capitalism you were expecting.


Minimum compensation does not exist in Switzerland, and Jura and Neutchatel make up less than 5% of Swiss population. Collective bargaining agreements do exist, but most industries do not have such Gesamtarbeitsvertrag agreements, and there is absolutely no legislation whatsoever to ensure a minimum compensation for those. Although this isn't very relevant since those who do have bargaining agreements are typically lower-earning roles, however, neither the financial industry nor the doctor profession is governed by any GVA. There's nothing stopping UBS/Credit Suisse employing people for $1000 a year to be investment bankers or a hospital employing a doctor from Zimbabwe while paying him his wage simply converted to CFA. But they're not stupid and they won't do it.

That puts us back to the same question. The reason why any employer would withhold overtime payments for three years in Hungary is the same reason why a Swiss bank would employ a financial planner on $5000 and why Donald Trump can nuke Beijing at will tomorrow night. It's an option. It's highly unlikely to be used. And in the case of the former two, nearly everybody will be able to switch employer anyway, or at least have the relatively luxurious position of being able to deny a job offer while you search for better ones because you heard the employer is bad or the wage is bad, as neither Hungarian or Swiss workers live paycheque to paycheque unlike the US.
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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54836
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:27 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Risottia wrote:No, I'm not trying. I'm openly stating that with you earlier post you implied that being paid THREE YEARS LATER for overtime must be completely normal to you. If you think that's a personal attack, please join the chorus and report my post in Moderation.

Also, one extra day per week makes 50ish extra days per year, that is two extra average working months per year. Feel free to post your alternative maths.


I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:57 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.


You have clearly never worked if you unironically believe that.

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Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11287
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:03 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.

And obviously you know business well enough to say this.
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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54836
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:05 am

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.


You have clearly never worked if you unironically believe that.

t
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p
i
c
a
l
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Petrolheadia
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Posts: 11287
Founded: May 02, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Petrolheadia » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:09 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
You have clearly never worked if you unironically believe that.

t
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p
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c
a
l

As usual, no rebuttal.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
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The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20204
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:12 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:t
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p
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As usual, no rebuttal.

Not really surprising as I didn't think that ad hominems warrant a rebuttal.
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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:24 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.

Which is more than any typical worker should be working anyway.


A typical worker doesn't work overtime.

The average Hungarian worker works just north of 1800 hours a year, and that's on existing arrangements of 250 extra overtime hours. Or a 37.5 hour workweek. This 150 hour increase to 400 is not really going to dent those numbers, and still would put them below Greece and South Korea if all 150 were to be suddenly used for whatever reason by all employers.
Last edited by Trumptonium1 on Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Grims
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1311
Founded: Antiquity
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Grims » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:59 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Risottia wrote:No, I'm not trying. I'm openly stating that with you earlier post you implied that being paid THREE YEARS LATER for overtime must be completely normal to you. If you think that's a personal attack, please join the chorus and report my post in Moderation.

Also, one extra day per week makes 50ish extra days per year, that is two extra average working months per year. Feel free to post your alternative maths.


I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.


Up to 400 hours per year is not the same as 150 though ;)

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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 4022
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:04 am

The Grims wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
I know Italy scores poorly for mathematics in international students scores, but that sir is appalling.

150 additional hours per year, at maximum, is an extra three hours a week on the average 48-week Hungarian working year. Or about an additional 12 hours a month, which is one weekend every month with 6 hours spent a day.


Up to 400 hours per year is not the same as 150 though ;)


The current limit is 250. This raises it to 400. That's an increase of 150.

Unless, for whatever reason, all of you are arguing that because of the 150 hour increase, employers who currently don't offer overtime with demand/coerce/involuntarily volunteer all their workers to suddenly work an extra 400. Maybe they didn't hear about the 250-hour law before?
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The Liamese Empire
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 463
Founded: Apr 18, 2016
Right-wing Utopia

Postby The Liamese Empire » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:10 am

I think it is absolutely absurd how everyone in this thread is acting as if just because these things are legal, it means that every business is immediately going to do this. That's absolutely absurd. If the people have a moral outcry to what a business does, they will condemn it or stop working for it which will lower profits. All this bill does is increase the ability for the invisible hand to be able to do what it must and in the end will help the national economy by allowing businesses to have more free will.
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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54836
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:10 am

Petrolheadia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:t
y
p
i
c
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As usual, no rebuttal.

All I did was stress the fact I was referring to a "typical" worker.

In an intentionally obnoxious way, due to your intentionally obnoxious response.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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