NationStates

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:19 pm**

Under Dutch law the police can't enter a church whilst a service is going on, so a large number of priests and pastors have been keeping a church service going for more then a month to help a refugee family from Armenia escape being deported.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/europe/n ... index.html

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:26 pm**

I saw this, and I love it. Love it when Christians rediscover their roots and stand up to bigotry.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:38 pm**

And that’s how you cause this law to be overturned.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:43 pm**

Pretty interesting situation to say the least. Laughed a little, bit it great that these people are so dedicated to helping others, not to mention the creative thinking.

Though it does seem like they’re only delaying the inevitable at this rate.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:45 pm**

That's a stupid law, but I'm pleased to see it put to a good use.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:46 pm**

To be fair, they think they are being smart by doing so, but the state will just laugh, snap their fingers, repeal or suspend the involved law, and storm the church.

It really ain't as clever as they think.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:50 pm**

If that is the law in The Netherlands, then its a ridiculous law. Allowing someone to escape the full vindication of the law because they happen to be in a church is a nonsensical and arbitrary distinction to draw. One illegal immigrant gets deported because he was outside the church, the other doesn't get deported because he was inside the church as this extended 24/7 service was going on. What an idiotic legal distinction to make.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:53 pm**

If the Armenians aren't being major-league assholes, let them stay, OK? Unless of course there's firsthand info on them being just that, well.

Seriously, this paranoia about migrants has got to stop -- it's getting to my side of the world, and counseling people that, no, the Chinese aren't here to overrun Manila, they're here to work their asses off, it's tiresome shit.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:53 pm**

Something something separation of church and state.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:55 pm**

Liriena wrote:I saw this, and I love it. Love it when Christians rediscover their roots and stand up to bigotry.

Not that what they did is necessarily wrong, but they aren't christians, and what they did wasn't standing up to bigotry.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:56 pm**

Duhon wrote:If the Armenians aren't being major-league assholes, let them stay, OK? Unless of course there's firsthand info on them being just that, well.

Seriously, this paranoia about migrants has got to stop -- it's getting to my side of the world, and counseling people that, no, the Chinese aren't here to overrun Manila, they're here to work their asses off, it's tiresome shit.

Except if the family had been outside the church, they weren't gonna be deported for being Armenian. They'd have been deported for having no legal authorisation to remain in the country. Their asylum claim was rejected and they stayed remained within the country illegally thereafter.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:59 pm**

Purgatio wrote:If that is the law in The Netherlands, then its a ridiculous law. Allowing someone to escape the full vindication of the law because they happen to be in a church is a nonsensical and arbitrary distinction to draw. One illegal immigrant gets deported because he was outside the church, the other doesn't get deported because he was inside the church as this extended 24/7 service was going on. What an idiotic legal distinction to make.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:02 pm**

Absolutely brilliant.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:03 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Purgatio wrote:If that is the law in The Netherlands, then its a ridiculous law. Allowing someone to escape the full vindication of the law because they happen to be in a church is a nonsensical and arbitrary distinction to draw. One illegal immigrant gets deported because he was outside the church, the other doesn't get deported because he was inside the church as this extended 24/7 service was going on. What an idiotic legal distinction to make.

Ugh, haha yeah thanks for proving my point. That was a super eye-rolling scene for me. So if she's outside the church, she gets burnt for witchcraft, but once she's inside she can't be punished? Yeah, makes sense, sounds like a wonderful way to structure a criminal justice system.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:03 pm**

Duhon wrote:If the Armenians aren't being major-league assholes, let them stay, OK? Unless of course there's firsthand info on them being just that, well.

Seriously, this paranoia about migrants has got to stop -- it's getting to my side of the world, and counseling people that, no, the Chinese aren't here to overrun Manila, they're here to work their asses off, it's tiresome shit.

And what if they do? What if you saw news articles every month showing undeniable statistics the Philippines would become 70% Chinese in 50 year or less? That is how it is in Europe.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:04 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Purgatio wrote:If that is the law in The Netherlands, then its a ridiculous law. Allowing someone to escape the full vindication of the law because they happen to be in a church is a nonsensical and arbitrary distinction to draw. One illegal immigrant gets deported because he was outside the church, the other doesn't get deported because he was inside the church as this extended 24/7 service was going on. What an idiotic legal distinction to make.

OT shower thought: The Hunchback of Notre Dame is actually a movie about an incel redeeming himself.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:05 pm**

Purgatio wrote:
Ifreann wrote:

Ugh, haha yeah thanks for proving my point. That was a super eye-rolling scene for me. So if she's outside the church, she gets burnt for witchcraft, but once she's inside she can't be punished? Yeah, makes sense, sounds like a wonderful way to structure a criminal justice system.

It's clearly stupid, but I'm guessing it's a law that dates back to the days when the Church was a massive political force.

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Ifreann wrote:

OT shower thought: The Hunchback of Notre Dame is actually a movie about an incel redeeming himself.

Your thought gave me cancer.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:06 pm**

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Ifreann wrote:

OT shower thought: The Hunchback of Notre Dame is actually a movie about an incel redeeming himself.

How is Quasimodo the Incel in the movie? Frollo is the Incel - "choose me or you will burn"? Yeah, sounds like a classic Incel Reddit post.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:07 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Ugh, haha yeah thanks for proving my point. That was a super eye-rolling scene for me. So if she's outside the church, she gets burnt for witchcraft, but once she's inside she can't be punished? Yeah, makes sense, sounds like a wonderful way to structure a criminal justice system.

It's clearly stupid, but I'm guessing it's a law that dates back to the days when the Church was a massive political force.

The Liberated Territories wrote:
OT shower thought: The Hunchback of Notre Dame is actually a movie about an incel redeeming himself.

Your thought gave me cancer.

Well now that we have a prime example of how this outdated law is open to abuse, its probably best the Netherlands did away with it for good so this can't happen again.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:07 pm**

Purgatio wrote:
Ifreann wrote:

Ugh, haha yeah thanks for proving my point. That was a super eye-rolling scene for me. So if she's outside the church, she gets burnt for witchcraft, but once she's inside she can't be punished? Yeah, makes sense, sounds like a wonderful way to structure a criminal justice system.

The point being, that storming a sacred place, and violating what the crowds outside would see as a safe place never goes over well. The point is also two sided since even though the church is sanctuary the offender can never leave without having a fear of being apprehended, and may slowly go mad with cabin fever. Its how the U.S after the intervention in Panama drove former dictator Noriega out of the Vatican City embassy there. To be specific they blasted heavy metal music, and conducted psychological operations driving the man mad until he gave himself up since legally storming an embassy is a damn nightmare to do.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:08 pm**

Purgatio wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
OT shower thought: The Hunchback of Notre Dame is actually a movie about an incel redeeming himself.

How is Quasimodo the Incel in the movie? Frollo is the Incel - "choose me or you will burn"? Yeah, sounds like a classic Incel Reddit post.

Quasimodo is a trucel tho

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:08 pm**

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Ifreann wrote:

OT shower thought: The Hunchback of Notre Dame is actually a movie about an incel redeeming himself.

Wow, very thought provoking calling a deformed and hunchbacked man an incel and saying he had to "redeem himself".

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:08 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Ugh, haha yeah thanks for proving my point. That was a super eye-rolling scene for me. So if she's outside the church, she gets burnt for witchcraft, but once she's inside she can't be punished? Yeah, makes sense, sounds like a wonderful way to structure a criminal justice system.

It's clearly stupid, but I'm guessing it's a law that dates back to the days when the Church was a massive political force.

The Liberated Territories wrote:
OT shower thought: The Hunchback of Notre Dame is actually a movie about an incel redeeming himself.

Your thought gave me cancer.

The law itself also has applications in non-religious places of diplomatic importance such as embassies. I suppose back far away in the day there was some religious justification for not violating such ground as well, but such meaning has since passed.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:08 pm**

Benuty wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Ugh, haha yeah thanks for proving my point. That was a super eye-rolling scene for me. So if she's outside the church, she gets burnt for witchcraft, but once she's inside she can't be punished? Yeah, makes sense, sounds like a wonderful way to structure a criminal justice system.

The point being, that storming a sacred place, and violating what the crowds outside would see as a safe place never goes over well. The point is also two sided since even though the church is sanctuary the offender can never leave without having a fear of being apprehended, and may slowly go mad with cabin fever. Its how the U.S after the intervention in Panama drove former dictator Noriega out of the Vatican City embassy there. To be specific they blasted heavy metal music, and conducted psychological operations driving the man mad until he gave himself up since legally storming an embassy is a damn nightmare to do.

Embassies are protected under the Vienna Convention for pragmatic diplomatic reasons. Diplomats won't travel into unfriendly, hostile territories (precisely when diplomacy and inter-State communication is most needed) unless there were a general legal norm of diplomatic immunity. There is no reason to protect the inviolability of religious institutions, especially when said institution abuses that protection to actively-harbour criminals who are breaking or flouting domestic law, as is the case here.

Posted: **Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:08 pm**

Purgatio wrote:
Duhon wrote:If the Armenians aren't being major-league assholes, let them stay, OK? Unless of course there's firsthand info on them being just that, well.

Seriously, this paranoia about migrants has got to stop -- it's getting to my side of the world, and counseling people that, no, the Chinese aren't here to overrun Manila, they're here to work their asses off, it's tiresome shit.

Except if the family had been outside the church, they weren't gonna be deported for being Armenian. They'd have been deported for having no legal authorisation to remain in the country. Their asylum claim was rejected and they stayed remained within the country illegally thereafter.

I didn't say or imply that these guys are going to be deported specifically because they're Armenian.

That said, if their asylum application has been rejected and they can't apply for working visas or whatever would make them stay on in the Netherlands, by all means send them back. Armenia may be poor, but it's not a bad place to live in.

NationStates

Dutch church holds 24/7 services to help refugees

Dutch church holds 24/7 services to help refugees