NationStates

Vassenor wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
1. Fine, I won't assume, here are your exact words: "I hope you realize most criminals don't choose to be criminals, usually what happens is that societal situations force them to do so (Like poverty, lack of education, etc...) or they end up commiting crimes by accident." Seems like I characterised your position pretty accurately
2. Great, you're not a liberal, but you are liberal compared to me, hence why I'd say your position is 'liberal' relative to me. Liberal and conservative are relative terms anyway, I'd have no problems with you calling me conservative since I'm obviously conservative relative to you.
3. What does that have to do with anything? So what, if I haven't been poor I can't have an opinion about this anymore? And what does poverty have to do with criminality? So you're poor you now have no choice but to rob banks and snort coke and mug people on the street? I don't see how one is connected to the other at all
4. No, it literally doesn't. Being robbed of agency means being robbed of your freedom and capacity to make choices (ie a mental illness has robbed you of mental capacity, or you're being violently coerced to do something). Being poor just means you have less money. It doesn't mean now there's suddenly a gun to your head forcing you to rob people or take drugs where prior to then there wasn't.
5. Yes, by choice. You realise that criminals are a tiny minority of the population, right? In 2013, only 2.8% of the US adult population was either in jail, on probation or on parole https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5177. If the overwhelming majority of people manage to not commit crimes or go to jail, clearly its a choice, there's no way to get around it.
6. Yeah, this is a stereotype I hear a lot: rich people commit lots of crimes and never get caught. Or, maybe, there are fewer rich people in jail because fewer rich people commit crimes? I'd also point out that, if you are now arguing that the rich and poor commit crime at the same rates, it kinda undermines your argument that poverty contributes to criminality.
7. I don't come from the US, I come from Singapore, a country with one of the lowest crime rates in the world and an incarceration rate lower than the US, Russia, Brazil, Iran and Turkey. Funnily enough, it turns out when you take a no tolerance position when it comes to crime, it really does wonders for creating a crime-free environment for everyone.

So what's the dark figure like there?

Page wrote:A more accurate headline: American who didn't do anything wrong kidnapped by an armed gang. And unfortunately, many people are living in fear of this gang which gets to run wild in our communities.

Purgatio wrote:

Page wrote:A more accurate headline: American who didn't do anything wrong kidnapped by an armed gang. And unfortunately, many people are living in fear of this gang which gets to run wild in our communities.

He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

Page wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

No, he broke a law. He didn't do anything morally wrong, he didn't harm anyone by smoking weed.

Purgatio wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
So what's the dark figure like there?

What dark figure? Is that supposed to mean something to me?

Vassenor wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
What dark figure? Is that supposed to mean something to me?

The difference between what the government says crime is like and what it actually is like.

Purgatio wrote:

Page wrote:A more accurate headline: American who didn't do anything wrong kidnapped by an armed gang. And unfortunately, many people are living in fear of this gang which gets to run wild in our communities.

He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

Yes, but he was being punished for a crime that he did not, in fact, commit.

Purgatio wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
The difference between what the government says crime is like and what it actually is like.

You're kidding, right? Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world, it's just a fact. It's not based on what 'the government' says, its based on objective UNODC data and statistics. Unless you seriously expect me to believe that the crime rate in Singapore and Japan are the same as in Russia and the US.

Purgatio wrote:Yeah they made a mistake but don't expect to shed a tear that a criminal almost got kicked out of the US. That's what I call a harmless administrative error, at best. I really don't get what all the fuss is about.

Purgatio wrote:

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Yes, but he was being punished for a crime that he did not, in fact, commit.

And then he got arrested for a crime he did commit, smoking marijuana. And that was the arrest which resulted in the material near-deportation, whatever happened before that is irrelevant.

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:

Purgatio wrote:Yeah they made a mistake but don't expect to shed a tear that a criminal almost got kicked out of the US. That's what I call a harmless administrative error, at best. I really don't get what all the fuss is about.

The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

Vassenor wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
You're kidding, right? Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world, it's just a fact. It's not based on what 'the government' says, its based on objective UNODC data and statistics. Unless you seriously expect me to believe that the crime rate in Singapore and Japan are the same as in Russia and the US.

Cool. Let's see that data then.

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:

Purgatio wrote:Yeah they made a mistake but don't expect to shed a tear that a criminal almost got kicked out of the US. That's what I call a harmless administrative error, at best. I really don't get what all the fuss is about.

The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

Vassenor wrote:

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

Under US law, you can't deport citizens.

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
And then he got arrested for a crime he did commit, smoking marijuana. And that was the arrest which resulted in the material near-deportation, whatever happened before that is irrelevant.

Doesn't change the fact that ICE overstepped its bounds, and deserves to be punished severely for that.
A simple case of mistaken identity (especially if it's obvious, since the records ICE had apparently listed him as being over a foot taller than he actually was, probably among many other things) shouldn't be enough to deport a US citizen.

Purgatio wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
Cool. Let's see that data then.

Download the full UNODC report at this link: https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Raw data starts from page 120 onwards, around there. Enjoy.

Purgatio wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
Cool. Let's see that data then.

Download the full UNODC report at this link: https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Raw data starts from page 120 onwards, around there. Enjoy.

Purgatio wrote:

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

Why not? If they can't follow the laws what use are they to anyone else? What reason does society have to keep someone like that around if no one wants him anymore?

The Grims wrote:So were the cops arrested for their racist behaviour ?

Vassenor wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
Download the full UNODC report at this link: https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Raw data starts from page 120 onwards, around there. Enjoy.

You do realise that homicide isn't the only crime in the world, right? And that low homicide rates =/= low crime rates?

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
Why not? If they can't follow the laws what use are they to anyone else? What reason does society have to keep someone like that around if no one wants him anymore?

...I really hope you aren't being serious, because this is the exact same slippery slope that Germany was on in the 1930s. You don't need to disagree with ICE to think that purging all undesirables is a bad idea.

Purgatio wrote:

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Doesn't change the fact that ICE overstepped its bounds, and deserves to be punished severely for that.
A simple case of mistaken identity (especially if it's obvious, since the records ICE had apparently listed him as being over a foot taller than he actually was, probably among many other things) shouldn't be enough to deport a US citizen.

ICE did almost break the law (US law) by almost-deporting someone they weren't legally-entitled to deport. I never disagreed with that. I'm just saying I wouldn't call it a tragedy if they had.

Purgatio wrote:

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:...I really hope you aren't being serious, because this is the exact same slippery slope that Germany was on in the 1930s. You don't need to disagree with ICE to think that purging all undesirables is a bad idea.

Did I suggest exterminating the Jews? Throwing gays into concentration camps (of which I'm one, by the way)? Gassing the Roma? No, because I'm not Hitler. Suggesting I wouldn't mind deporting criminal citizens doesn't make me Hitler, this is Godwin's Law in action.