ICE attempts to deport American born citizen

[Purgatio]

1. Fine, I won't assume, here are your exact words: "I hope you realize most criminals don't choose to be criminals, usually what happens is that societal situations force them to do so (Like poverty, lack of education, etc...) or they end up commiting crimes by accident." Seems like I characterised your position pretty accurately
2. Great, you're not a liberal, but you are liberal compared to me, hence why I'd say your position is 'liberal' relative to me. Liberal and conservative are relative terms anyway, I'd have no problems with you calling me conservative since I'm obviously conservative relative to you.
3. What does that have to do with anything? So what, if I haven't been poor I can't have an opinion about this anymore? And what does poverty have to do with criminality? So you're poor you now have no choice but to rob banks and snort coke and mug people on the street? I don't see how one is connected to the other at all
4. No, it literally doesn't. Being robbed of agency means being robbed of your freedom and capacity to make choices (ie a mental illness has robbed you of mental capacity, or you're being violently coerced to do something). Being poor just means you have less money. It doesn't mean now there's suddenly a gun to your head forcing you to rob people or take drugs where prior to then there wasn't.
5. Yes, by choice. You realise that criminals are a tiny minority of the population, right? In 2013, only 2.8% of the US adult population was either in jail, on probation or on parole https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5177. If the overwhelming majority of people manage to not commit crimes or go to jail, clearly its a choice, there's no way to get around it.
6. Yeah, this is a stereotype I hear a lot: rich people commit lots of crimes and never get caught. Or, maybe, there are fewer rich people in jail because fewer rich people commit crimes? I'd also point out that, if you are now arguing that the rich and poor commit crime at the same rates, it kinda undermines your argument that poverty contributes to criminality.
7. I don't come from the US, I come from Singapore, a country with one of the lowest crime rates in the world and an incarceration rate lower than the US, Russia, Brazil, Iran and Turkey. Funnily enough, it turns out when you take a no tolerance position when it comes to crime, it really does wonders for creating a crime-free environment for everyone.

So what's the dark figure like there?

What dark figure? Is that supposed to mean something to me?

[Page]

A more accurate headline: American who didn't do anything wrong kidnapped by an armed gang. And unfortunately, many people are living in fear of this gang which gets to run wild in our communities.

[Purgatio]

A more accurate headline: American who didn't do anything wrong kidnapped by an armed gang. And unfortunately, many people are living in fear of this gang which gets to run wild in our communities.

He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

[Page]

A more accurate headline: American who didn't do anything wrong kidnapped by an armed gang. And unfortunately, many people are living in fear of this gang which gets to run wild in our communities.

He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

No, he broke a law. He didn't do anything morally wrong, he didn't harm anyone by smoking weed.

[Purgatio]

He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

No, he broke a law. He didn't do anything morally wrong, he didn't harm anyone by smoking weed.

Smoking weed creates the demand for a product which contributes to deaths owing to traffic accidents and other injuries arising from the impaired judgment of getting high on weed. It's a social menace and governments have made a rational decision to criminalise it.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/470833/drug-poisoning-deaths-cannabis-in-england-and-wales/
https://www.narcity.com/news/weed-related-traffic-deaths-are-on-the-rise-in-canada
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1445718/Cannabis-use-causes-hundreds-of-deaths-a-year-coroner-warns.html
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/legalizing-recreational-marijuana-is-linked-to-increased-crashes

[Vassenor]

So what's the dark figure like there?

What dark figure? Is that supposed to mean something to me?

The difference between what the government says crime is like and what it actually is like.

[Purgatio]

What dark figure? Is that supposed to mean something to me?

The difference between what the government says crime is like and what it actually is like.

You're kidding, right? Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world, it's just a fact. It's not based on what 'the government' says, its based on objective UNODC data and statistics. Unless you seriously expect me to believe that the crime rate in Singapore and Japan are the same as in Russia and the US.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

A more accurate headline: American who didn't do anything wrong kidnapped by an armed gang. And unfortunately, many people are living in fear of this gang which gets to run wild in our communities.

He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

Yes, but he was being punished for a crime that he did not, in fact, commit.

[Purgatio]

He broke the terms of his parole. That's doing something wrong.

Yes, but he was being punished for a crime that he did not, in fact, commit.

And then he got arrested for a crime he did commit, smoking marijuana. And that was the arrest which resulted in the material near-deportation, whatever happened before that is irrelevant.

[Vassenor]

The difference between what the government says crime is like and what it actually is like.

You're kidding, right? Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world, it's just a fact. It's not based on what 'the government' says, its based on objective UNODC data and statistics. Unless you seriously expect me to believe that the crime rate in Singapore and Japan are the same as in Russia and the US.

Cool. Let's see that data then.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Yeah they made a mistake but don't expect to shed a tear that a criminal almost got kicked out of the US. That's what I call a harmless administrative error, at best. I really don't get what all the fuss is about.

The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Yes, but he was being punished for a crime that he did not, in fact, commit.

And then he got arrested for a crime he did commit, smoking marijuana. And that was the arrest which resulted in the material near-deportation, whatever happened before that is irrelevant.

Doesn't change the fact that ICE overstepped its bounds, and deserves to be punished severely for that.
A simple case of mistaken identity (especially if it's obvious, since the records ICE had apparently listed him as being over a foot taller than he actually was, probably among many other things) shouldn't be enough to deport a US citizen.

[Vassenor]

Yeah they made a mistake but don't expect to shed a tear that a criminal almost got kicked out of the US. That's what I call a harmless administrative error, at best. I really don't get what all the fuss is about.

The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

Under US law, you can't deport citizens.

[Purgatio]

You're kidding, right? Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world, it's just a fact. It's not based on what 'the government' says, its based on objective UNODC data and statistics. Unless you seriously expect me to believe that the crime rate in Singapore and Japan are the same as in Russia and the US.

Cool. Let's see that data then.

Download the full UNODC report at this link: https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Raw data starts from page 120 onwards, around there. Enjoy.

[Purgatio]

Yeah they made a mistake but don't expect to shed a tear that a criminal almost got kicked out of the US. That's what I call a harmless administrative error, at best. I really don't get what all the fuss is about.

The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

Why not? If they can't follow the laws what use are they to anyone else? What reason does society have to keep someone like that around if no one wants him anymore?

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

Under US law, you can't deport citizens.

And yet we somehow came extremely close to having that happen.
Methinks that we need to start paying more attention to ICE to make sure that it's actually following the law, if nothing else.

[Purgatio]

And then he got arrested for a crime he did commit, smoking marijuana. And that was the arrest which resulted in the material near-deportation, whatever happened before that is irrelevant.

Doesn't change the fact that ICE overstepped its bounds, and deserves to be punished severely for that.
A simple case of mistaken identity (especially if it's obvious, since the records ICE had apparently listed him as being over a foot taller than he actually was, probably among many other things) shouldn't be enough to deport a US citizen.

ICE did almost break the law (US law) by almost-deporting someone they weren't legally-entitled to deport. I never disagreed with that. I'm just saying I wouldn't call it a tragedy if they had.

[Vassenor]

Cool. Let's see that data then.

Download the full UNODC report at this link: https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Raw data starts from page 120 onwards, around there. Enjoy.

You do realise that homicide isn't the only crime in the world, right? And that low homicide rates =/= low crime rates?

[Purgatio]

Cool. Let's see that data then.

Download the full UNODC report at this link: https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Raw data starts from page 120 onwards, around there. Enjoy.

I should probably add, if you want a condensed version, since the raw data is pretty lengthy, feel free to check out this Wikipedia section which summarises the UNODC findings in a nice country ranking, which at the end of the day is what we all want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#cite_note-UNODC-1

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

The man was allmost made stateless.

You shouldn't be able to deport your own citizens.

Why not? If they can't follow the laws what use are they to anyone else? What reason does society have to keep someone like that around if no one wants him anymore?

...I really hope you aren't being serious, because this is the exact same slippery slope that Germany was on in the 1930s. You don't need to disagree with ICE to think that purging all undesirables is a bad idea.

[Keramos]

So were the cops arrested for their racist behaviour ?

Is racism a crime?

[Purgatio]

Download the full UNODC report at this link: https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Raw data starts from page 120 onwards, around there. Enjoy.

You do realise that homicide isn't the only crime in the world, right? And that low homicide rates =/= low crime rates?

Sure, I get that, but the UNODC's most comprehensive data is on homicide, for rather obvious reasons. Pragmatically, its hard to make international comparisons on things like rape, drug crime etc when legal definitions will vary widely between jurisdictions. The definition of culpable homicide is relatively comparable jurisdiction to jurisdiction, hence why the UNODC measures intentional homicide rates. Every study needs to minimise non-dependent variables as far as possible.

So I get your point, but it doesn't change the fact that my argument stands that certain countries like Japan are clearly safer places to live than others.

[Purgatio]

Why not? If they can't follow the laws what use are they to anyone else? What reason does society have to keep someone like that around if no one wants him anymore?

...I really hope you aren't being serious, because this is the exact same slippery slope that Germany was on in the 1930s. You don't need to disagree with ICE to think that purging all undesirables is a bad idea.

Did I suggest exterminating the Jews? Throwing gays into concentration camps (of which I'm one, by the way)? Gassing the Roma? No, because I'm not Hitler. Suggesting I wouldn't mind deporting criminal citizens doesn't make me Hitler, this is Godwin's Law in action.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Doesn't change the fact that ICE overstepped its bounds, and deserves to be punished severely for that.
A simple case of mistaken identity (especially if it's obvious, since the records ICE had apparently listed him as being over a foot taller than he actually was, probably among many other things) shouldn't be enough to deport a US citizen.

ICE did almost break the law (US law) by almost-deporting someone they weren't legally-entitled to deport. I never disagreed with that. I'm just saying I wouldn't call it a tragedy if they had.

Which means that you would support their actions if they did, no?
You saying that this was illegal is meaningless: we already know it was illegal, you gave us no new information whatsoever.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

...I really hope you aren't being serious, because this is the exact same slippery slope that Germany was on in the 1930s. You don't need to disagree with ICE to think that purging all undesirables is a bad idea.

Did I suggest exterminating the Jews? Throwing gays into concentration camps (of which I'm one, by the way)? Gassing the Roma? No, because I'm not Hitler. Suggesting I wouldn't mind deporting criminal citizens doesn't make me Hitler, this is Godwin's Law in action.

The early Holocaust consisted entirely of Germany placing those it deemed as undesirables into camps (not concentration camps, but rather "protective custody"), and they would then be deported to whatever countries would take them. Genocide didn't start until later.