ICE attempts to deport American born citizen

[New haven america]

It's harmless because the guy's still a criminal, he broke the law while he was on parole. Talk about squandering a second chance handed to you by society. So yeah, sorry, I'm really not gonna shed a tear.

Now, if ICE was going around arresting random Hispanic-Americans who did nothing wrong for no other reason than their race, and then mistakenly trying to deport them, then I'd be concerned. But sorry, I'm not going to feel sorry that a criminal almost got deported, I just can't bring it in me to shed a tear for this guy even if I tried.

Or we could just, you know, leave Penal Transportation in the 19th century where it belongs.

But then how would we keep the undesirables out?

[Purgatio]

Or we could just, you know, leave Penal Transportation in the 19th century where it belongs.

But then how would we keep the undesirables out?

I know you meant that as sarcasm but - really, logically speaking, how exactly is kicking criminals out of a country a bad thing?

[Vassenor]

But then how would we keep the undesirables out?

I know you meant that as sarcasm but - really, logically speaking, how exactly is kicking criminals out of a country a bad thing?

What does it accomplish that regular incarceration doesn't? What are its actual advantages?

[New haven america]

But then how would we keep the undesirables out?

I know you meant that as sarcasm but - really, logically speaking, how exactly is kicking criminals out of a country a bad thing?

Because we could be like the other developed nations and reform them and teach them skills that they may not have been able to get originally so that they become productive members of society?

I hope you realize most criminals don't choose to be criminals, usually what happens is that societal situations force them to do so (Like poverty, lack of education, etc...) or they end up commiting crimes by accident.

[Purgatio]

I know you meant that as sarcasm but - really, logically speaking, how exactly is kicking criminals out of a country a bad thing?

Because we could be like the other developed nations and reform them and teach them skills that they may not have been able to get originally so that they become productive members of society?

I hope you realize most criminals don't choose to be criminals, usually what happens is that societal situations force them to do so (Like poverty, lack of education, etc...) or they end up commiting crimes by accident.

This guy got a chance. You realise he was on parole right? He had the opportunity to reform and he squandered it. Then he almost got deported? Great. Cry me a river.

[Petrasylvania]

ICE mistakes Born in East LA for a procedural documentary. Shocker.

[Purgatio]

I know you meant that as sarcasm but - really, logically speaking, how exactly is kicking criminals out of a country a bad thing?

What does it accomplish that regular incarceration doesn't? What are its actual advantages?

The guarantee that the person in question won't be able to menace your citizens by reoffending? With regular incarceration (1) there is still the opportunity for the criminal to wreck havoc whilst in prison and (2) assuming he gets released eventually, therein lies the risk of reoffending. Deportation solves both problems.

[New haven america]

Because we could be like the other developed nations and reform them and teach them skills that they may not have been able to get originally so that they become productive members of society?

I hope you realize most criminals don't choose to be criminals, usually what happens is that societal situations force them to do so (Like poverty, lack of education, etc...) or they end up commiting crimes by accident.

This guy got a chance. You realise he was on parole right? He had the opportunity to reform and he squandered it. Then he almost got deported? Great. Cry me a river.

You think the US legal system gives criminals a chance? Seriously?

At best the US legal system is an unforgiving and life ruining system, and at worst is creating modern day slavery in the US.

[Purgatio]

This guy got a chance. You realise he was on parole right? He had the opportunity to reform and he squandered it. Then he almost got deported? Great. Cry me a river.

You think the US legal system gives criminals a chance? Seriously?

At best the US legal system is an unforgiving and life ruining system, and at worst is creating modern day slavery in the US.

So....because you're poor you have to take drugs? Because you went to a bad school you have to take drugs? This is the kind of liberal dogma I hear so much that really confuses me. What, exactly, is the logic behind that argument? Poverty doesn't force you to do anything. Poor education doesn't force you to do anything. It doesn't rob you off your free agency or your autonomy, and last I checked, there are lots of poor people out there who don't commit crimes. Funnily enough, they are the majority. So yeah, sorry, you might wanna be an apologist for criminals out there, but I'm pretty sure its a free choice on their part.

[Cloney]

this is why we need to impeach

[Purgatio]

this is why we need to impeach

1) Trump had nothing to do with the deportation, it was ICE

2) To impeach you need to show treason, bribery, high crimes or other misdemeanours committed by President Trump

3) I'm still not seeing any evidence that if Trump were not President this wouldn't have happened

[Petrasylvania]

You think the US legal system gives criminals a chance? Seriously?

At best the US legal system is an unforgiving and life ruining system, and at worst is creating modern day slavery in the US.

So....because you're poor you have to take drugs? Because you went to a bad school you have to take drugs? This is the kind of liberal dogma I hear so much that really confuses me. What, exactly, is the logic behind that argument? Poverty doesn't force you to do anything. Poor education doesn't force you to do anything. It doesn't rob you off your free agency or your autonomy, and last I checked, there are lots of poor people out there who don't commit crimes. Funnily enough, they are the majority. So yeah, sorry, you might wanna be an apologist for criminals out there, but I'm pretty sure its a free choice on their part.

That's nice. You have enough willpower to be a Green Lantern. Go you.

[Duhon]

Almost getting deported to a place you've never been to your entire life is not "harmless". Sure, it didn't happen here, but what's to stop an agency at the vanguard of the Trump administration's efforts to rid itself of all illegal immigrants whatever their status from abusing its power, if those in power are so willing to tar ALL immigrants as potential criminals, as invaders on the make?

Zealots are not known for their moderation.

It's harmless because the guy's still a criminal, he broke the law while he was on parole. Talk about squandering a second chance handed to you by society. So yeah, sorry, I'm really not gonna shed a tear.

Now, if ICE was going around arresting random Hispanic-Americans who did nothing wrong for no other reason than their race, and then mistakenly trying to deport them, then I'd be concerned. But sorry, I'm not going to feel sorry that a criminal almost got deported, I just can't bring it in me to shed a tear for this guy even if I tried.

He was smoking fucking weed -- yes, incredibly criminal. But anyway.

The temptation to throw the book at criminals because they are criminals is strong and understandable -- to a point.

By way of illustration, I live in the Philippines. My country's president, as you probably know, he's very much the champion bookthrower when it comes to illegal drugs -- to the tune of thousands of drug dealers and "drug dealers" and welp they're collateral damage ha ha sprawled dead, plus thousands more in fetid squalid steaming jails, squished almost face to butt, awaiting trial and sentencing, plus thousands still more dead, killed by moonlighting assassins who are conveniently almost never apprehended, reason later determined to be "well they dealt drugs, no loss".

That's the point I'm trying to drive at here.

[Purgatio]

So....because you're poor you have to take drugs? Because you went to a bad school you have to take drugs? This is the kind of liberal dogma I hear so much that really confuses me. What, exactly, is the logic behind that argument? Poverty doesn't force you to do anything. Poor education doesn't force you to do anything. It doesn't rob you off your free agency or your autonomy, and last I checked, there are lots of poor people out there who don't commit crimes. Funnily enough, they are the majority. So yeah, sorry, you might wanna be an apologist for criminals out there, but I'm pretty sure its a free choice on their part.

That's nice. You have enough willpower to be a Green Lantern. Go you.

You don't need much willpower to not take drugs. It's fairly easy. Many people around the world seem to manage it everyday.

[Vassenor]

this is why we need to impeach

1) Trump had nothing to do with the deportation, it was ICE

2) To impeach you need to show treason, bribery, high crimes or other misdemeanours committed by President Trump

3) I'm still not seeing any evidence that if Trump were not President this wouldn't have happened

So who else made such a fuss about immigrants that ICE began shaking down anyone even slightly brown for their papers, whether they were actually allowed to or not?

[Petrasylvania]

That's nice. You have enough willpower to be a Green Lantern. Go you.

You don't need much willpower to not take drugs. It's fairly easy. Many people around the world seem to manage it everyday.

If it was that easy there wouldn't be an opioid epidemic to begin with.

[Purgatio]

It's harmless because the guy's still a criminal, he broke the law while he was on parole. Talk about squandering a second chance handed to you by society. So yeah, sorry, I'm really not gonna shed a tear.

Now, if ICE was going around arresting random Hispanic-Americans who did nothing wrong for no other reason than their race, and then mistakenly trying to deport them, then I'd be concerned. But sorry, I'm not going to feel sorry that a criminal almost got deported, I just can't bring it in me to shed a tear for this guy even if I tried.

He was smoking fucking weed -- yes, incredibly criminal. But anyway.

The temptation to throw the book at criminals because they are criminals is strong and understandable -- to a point.

By way of illustration, I live in the Philippines. My country's president, as you probably know, he's very much the champion bookthrower when it comes to illegal drugs -- to the tune of thousands of drug dealers and "drug dealers" and welp they're collateral damage ha ha sprawled dead, plus thousands more in fetid squalid steaming jails, squished almost face to butt, awaiting trial and sentencing, plus thousands still more dead, killed by moonlighting assassins who are conveniently almost never apprehended, reason later determined to be "well they dealt drugs, no loss".

That's the point I'm trying to drive at here.

The tragedy in the Philippines is not that drug-dealers are dying, its that extra-judicial death squads like those hired by Duterte are often unreliable and have a high tendency to kill perfectly-innocent people who are in the wrong place, wrong time. That's the real tragedy - when innocents die, not when criminals die. Which is why the rest of the world is so concerned about the situation in the Philippines.

What Duterte is doing is not comparable to what happened to do this man. This man is a criminal, he is a bad person and while under US law he cannot be deported, and that was a mistake on ICE's part, its not a mistake I'm about to march in the streets or cry about. People who wilfully break the law are parasitic individuals, mooching off the productive citizens of a country. They generally aren't useful people you want to have around your neighbourhood. If he accidentally got deported, its an objective win for the US, not a loss.

[Duhon]

this is why we need to impeach

1) Trump had nothing to do with the deportation, it was ICE

2) To impeach you need to show treason, bribery, high crimes or other misdemeanours committed by President Trump

3) I'm still not seeing any evidence that if Trump were not President this wouldn't have happened

Let's say ICE wouldn't get a pat on the back for being, shall we say, a tad too zealous in its know-nothingness.

[New haven america]

So....because you're poor you have to take drugs? Because you went to a bad school you have to take drugs? This is the kind of liberal dogma I hear so much that really confuses me. What, exactly, is the logic behind that argument? Poverty doesn't force you to do anything. Poor education doesn't force you to do anything. It doesn't rob you off your free agency or your autonomy, and last I checked, there are lots of poor people out there who don't commit crimes. Funnily enough, they are the majority. So yeah, sorry, you might wanna be an apologist for criminals out there, but I'm pretty sure its a free choice on their part.

That's nice. You have enough willpower to be a Green Lantern. Go you.

The worst of the Lantern Corps.

[Purgatio]

You don't need much willpower to not take drugs. It's fairly easy. Many people around the world seem to manage it everyday.

If it was that easy there wouldn't be an opioid epidemic to begin with.

I think that's evidence that there are a lot of idiots and morons out there, it's not proof that not getting addicted to hard drugs in the first place isn't incredibly easy. It is. Again, lots of people around the world seem to manage it somehow. Clearly, it's not hard.

[Petrasylvania]

If it was that easy there wouldn't be an opioid epidemic to begin with.

I think that's evidence that there are a lot of idiots and morons out there, it's not proof that not getting addicted to hard drugs in the first place isn't incredibly easy. It is. Again, lots of people around the world seem to manage it somehow. Clearly, it's not hard.

Naturally you're assuming and judging by how cushy your life is and how you're not an addict.

[Purgatio]

I think that's evidence that there are a lot of idiots and morons out there, it's not proof that not getting addicted to hard drugs in the first place isn't incredibly easy. It is. Again, lots of people around the world seem to manage it somehow. Clearly, it's not hard.

Naturally you're assuming and judging by how cushy your life is and how you're not an addict.

What makes you so sure my life is cushy?

[New haven america]

You think the US legal system gives criminals a chance? Seriously?

At best the US legal system is an unforgiving and life ruining system, and at worst is creating modern day slavery in the US.

1. So....because you're poor you have to take drugs? Because you went to a bad school you have to take drugs? This is the kind of liberal dogma I hear so much that really confuses me. What, exactly, is the logic behind that argument? 3. Poverty doesn't force you to do anything. Poor education doesn't force you to do anything. 4. It doesn't rob you off your free agency or your autonomy, and last I checked, 5. there are lots of poor people out there who don't commit crimes. 6. Funnily enough, they are the majority. 7. So yeah, sorry, you might wanna be an apologist for criminals out there, but I'm pretty sure its a free choice on their part.

1. For future reference you'll want to avoid making crappy assumptions and strawmen, thank you.
2. I'm not a liberal, don't lump me in with your right-wing conservative view of the world... I hope you can see the deliberate hypocrisy in that statement, that's how you sound to me when you decide to pull out useless buzzwords. I was serious about not being a liberal though.
3. From the sound of it, you've never been poor. Typical...
4. Yes it does.
5. And there are a lot that do, and not by choice either.
6. They also tend to have the highest crime rate... well, crime that actually gets caught. Rich people get off the hook a lot.
7. And it's this line of thinking that's making American #1 when it comes to incarceration rates and well as the leading to the creation of societally accepted modern day slavery

[Purgatio]

1. So....because you're poor you have to take drugs? Because you went to a bad school you have to take drugs? This is the kind of liberal dogma I hear so much that really confuses me. What, exactly, is the logic behind that argument? 3. Poverty doesn't force you to do anything. Poor education doesn't force you to do anything. 4. It doesn't rob you off your free agency or your autonomy, and last I checked, 5. there are lots of poor people out there who don't commit crimes. 6. Funnily enough, they are the majority. 7. So yeah, sorry, you might wanna be an apologist for criminals out there, but I'm pretty sure its a free choice on their part.

1. For future reference you'll want to avoid making crappy assumptions and strawmen, thank you.
2. I'm not a liberal, don't lump me in with your right-wing conservative view of the world... I hope you can see the deliberate hypocrisy in that statement, that's how you sound to me when you decide to pull out useless buzzwords. I was serious about not being a liberal though.
3. From the sound of it, you've never been poor. Typical...
4. Yes it does.
5. And there are a lot that do, and not by choice either.
6. They also tend to have the highest crime rate... well, crime that actually gets caught. Rich people get off the hook a lot.
7. And it's this line of thinking that's making American #1 when it comes to incarceration rates and well as the leading to the creation of societally accepted modern day slavery

1. Fine, I won't assume, here are your exact words: "I hope you realize most criminals don't choose to be criminals, usually what happens is that societal situations force them to do so (Like poverty, lack of education, etc...) or they end up commiting crimes by accident." Seems like I characterised your position pretty accurately
2. Great, you're not a liberal, but you are liberal compared to me, hence why I'd say your position is 'liberal' relative to me. Liberal and conservative are relative terms anyway, I'd have no problems with you calling me conservative since I'm obviously conservative relative to you.
3. What does that have to do with anything? So what, if I haven't been poor I can't have an opinion about this anymore? And what does poverty have to do with criminality? So you're poor you now have no choice but to rob banks and snort coke and mug people on the street? I don't see how one is connected to the other at all
4. No, it literally doesn't. Being robbed of agency means being robbed of your freedom and capacity to make choices (ie a mental illness has robbed you of mental capacity, or you're being violently coerced to do something). Being poor just means you have less money. It doesn't mean now there's suddenly a gun to your head forcing you to rob people or take drugs where prior to then there wasn't.
5. Yes, by choice. You realise that criminals are a tiny minority of the population, right? In 2013, only 2.8% of the US adult population was either in jail, on probation or on parole https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5177. If the overwhelming majority of people manage to not commit crimes or go to jail, clearly its a choice, there's no way to get around it.
6. Yeah, this is a stereotype I hear a lot: rich people commit lots of crimes and never get caught. Or, maybe, there are fewer rich people in jail because fewer rich people commit crimes? I'd also point out that, if you are now arguing that the rich and poor commit crime at the same rates, it kinda undermines your argument that poverty contributes to criminality.
7. I don't come from the US, I come from Singapore, a country with one of the lowest crime rates in the world and an incarceration rate lower than the US, Russia, Brazil, Iran and Turkey. Funnily enough, it turns out when you take a no tolerance position when it comes to crime, it really does wonders for creating a crime-free environment for everyone.

[Vassenor]

1. For future reference you'll want to avoid making crappy assumptions and strawmen, thank you.
2. I'm not a liberal, don't lump me in with your right-wing conservative view of the world... I hope you can see the deliberate hypocrisy in that statement, that's how you sound to me when you decide to pull out useless buzzwords. I was serious about not being a liberal though.
3. From the sound of it, you've never been poor. Typical...
4. Yes it does.
5. And there are a lot that do, and not by choice either.
6. They also tend to have the highest crime rate... well, crime that actually gets caught. Rich people get off the hook a lot.
7. And it's this line of thinking that's making American #1 when it comes to incarceration rates and well as the leading to the creation of societally accepted modern day slavery

1. Fine, I won't assume, here are your exact words: "I hope you realize most criminals don't choose to be criminals, usually what happens is that societal situations force them to do so (Like poverty, lack of education, etc...) or they end up commiting crimes by accident." Seems like I characterised your position pretty accurately
2. Great, you're not a liberal, but you are liberal compared to me, hence why I'd say your position is 'liberal' relative to me. Liberal and conservative are relative terms anyway, I'd have no problems with you calling me conservative since I'm obviously conservative relative to you.
3. What does that have to do with anything? So what, if I haven't been poor I can't have an opinion about this anymore? And what does poverty have to do with criminality? So you're poor you now have no choice but to rob banks and snort coke and mug people on the street? I don't see how one is connected to the other at all
4. No, it literally doesn't. Being robbed of agency means being robbed of your freedom and capacity to make choices (ie a mental illness has robbed you of mental capacity, or you're being violently coerced to do something). Being poor just means you have less money. It doesn't mean now there's suddenly a gun to your head forcing you to rob people or take drugs where prior to then there wasn't.
5. Yes, by choice. You realise that criminals are a tiny minority of the population, right? In 2013, only 2.8% of the US adult population was either in jail, on probation or on parole https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5177. If the overwhelming majority of people manage to not commit crimes or go to jail, clearly its a choice, there's no way to get around it.
6. Yeah, this is a stereotype I hear a lot: rich people commit lots of crimes and never get caught. Or, maybe, there are fewer rich people in jail because fewer rich people commit crimes? I'd also point out that, if you are now arguing that the rich and poor commit crime at the same rates, it kinda undermines your argument that poverty contributes to criminality.
7. I don't come from the US, I come from Singapore, a country with one of the lowest crime rates in the world and an incarceration rate lower than the US, Russia, Brazil, Iran and Turkey. Funnily enough, it turns out when you take a no tolerance position when it comes to crime, it really does wonders for creating a crime-free environment for everyone.

So what's the dark figure like there?