Remembering December 7th, 1941

[Vrolondia]

The East Indies at the time had the most productive oil fields, the exception being China. So yes, when Japans main supply of oil ran out they invaded the Dutch East indies who was an easy target.

Provking the British, Americans and Dutch is an Easy target.

Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.

[Steampunk World War 1]

Japan attacked the US because the UN, led by US advances, internationally condemned their actions in the second Sino - Japanese war.

Further influencing the attack was the US decision to embargo machine and air plane parts, then later oil, to Japan essentially crippling the fleet while they were poised to conquer French and British territory in the east, forcing them to target the oil rich Dutch East Indies in order to continue the war.

Furthermore the attack at Pearl Harbor came a mere 9 months after FDR'S Lend-lease agreement, giving aid to all of Japans enemies, and US threats of war should Japan continue its aggression.

So with Japan condemned imternationally, embargoed from parts, supplies, and oil, then told if they invade the one place the need to fix all that America will attack them they were forced into a corner, and crippling the American Pacific fleet was the only viable option Japan had to continue its wars and diplomatic standing, with the hope America wouldn't be able to respond before Japan was ready, or even be strong armed into not going to war.

Sound an aweful lot like the US interfering with Japanese foreign policy in a war they were supposedly neutral in, then blaming Japan when they treated them the way America was acting.

Eh.

So its the United States fault for causing Japan to be the way it was during World War 2?

Sure why not leave out the part where Japan wanted to be a Imperial power by taking over Asia and The Pacific Ocean and subject innocent populations under their "Mighty Emperor's Boot"!

[Rusthenia]

Provking the British, Americans and Dutch is an Easy target.

Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.

no it wasn't the war started on the 7th of December, 1941 with the attacks on American-Dutch-British land in the pacific

[NERVUN]

Provking the British, Americans and Dutch is an Easy target.

Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.

Japan was not.

[Earth Luna and Mars]

Provking the British, Americans and Dutch is an Easy target.

Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.

You seriously need to retake a History class...

[Vrolondia]

Of course not. It's America's fault Japan decided to invade the East Indies, China was just an easier target.

Um... No. Your timeline is rather messed up.

Japan provoked a war with China (Marco Polo Bridge Incident), which led to some rather horrific acts that caused the US to react (Partially on humanitarian grounds, partially as reprisals due to Japanese actions, and partially in defense of the open door policy). Due to oil being cut off, Japan attempted to attack the East Indies. Due to fighting between the IJA and the IJN, it also decided that going after the Philippines and other colonies would be a good idea as well... thus attacking America.

All of which falls apart as a justification for Japan's actions when you read the bit about provoking the war with China in the first place.

I never said the war with China was related to America... I know it wasn't. I said they invaded the easy indies because America embargoed them and the needed oil since Manchuria wasn't supplying them with enough.

I meant it more like, they went after Manchuria in 1931 because its one of the heavy oil production regions in the area since they had no other real means of getting oil. They could have gone after the Dutch, but China was split by a civil war. In 1937 they went after the coast and major cities, but couldn't control the countryside. US cut the oil off when they invaded French Indochina, so they went for the islands, mainly the east indies.

If the US hadn't cut them off would they have gone after the east indies? Honestly I think they would have just stuck around in China since their manpower kept them from occupying the entire country.

[NERVUN]

Um... No. Your timeline is rather messed up.

Japan provoked a war with China (Marco Polo Bridge Incident), which led to some rather horrific acts that caused the US to react (Partially on humanitarian grounds, partially as reprisals due to Japanese actions, and partially in defense of the open door policy). Due to oil being cut off, Japan attempted to attack the East Indies. Due to fighting between the IJA and the IJN, it also decided that going after the Philippines and other colonies would be a good idea as well... thus attacking America.

All of which falls apart as a justification for Japan's actions when you read the bit about provoking the war with China in the first place.

I never said the war with China was related to America... I know it wasn't. I said they invaded the easy indies because America embargoed them and the needed oil since Manchuria wasn't supplying them with enough.

I meant it more like, they went after Manchuria in 1931 because its one of the heavy oil production regions in the area since they had no other real means of getting oil. They could have gone after the Dutch, but China was split by a civil war. In 1937 they went after the coast and major cities, but couldn't control the countryside. US cut the oil off when they invaded French Indochina, so they went for the islands, mainly the east indies.

If the US hadn't cut them off would they have gone after the east indies? Honestly I think they would have just stuck around in China since their manpower kept them from occupying the entire country.

*headdesks* Let's try this again...

The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.

[Vrolondia]

I never said the war with China was related to America... I know it wasn't. I said they invaded the easy indies because America embargoed them and the needed oil since Manchuria wasn't supplying them with enough.

I meant it more like, they went after Manchuria in 1931 because its one of the heavy oil production regions in the area since they had no other real means of getting oil. They could have gone after the Dutch, but China was split by a civil war. In 1937 they went after the coast and major cities, but couldn't control the countryside. US cut the oil off when they invaded French Indochina, so they went for the islands, mainly the east indies.

If the US hadn't cut them off would they have gone after the east indies? Honestly I think they would have just stuck around in China since their manpower kept them from occupying the entire country.

*headdesks* Let's try this again...

The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.

You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.

Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

Wtf?

America has the right to stop trading with a rogue nation, they're after all a sovereign nation too.

[Andsed]

*headdesks* Let's try this again...

The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.

You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those scions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.

Are you seriously trying to imply Japan was justified right now?

[Rusthenia]

*headdesks* Let's try this again...

The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.

You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those scions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.

so you're saying the USA shouldn't done anything after the motherfucking rape of Nanking and class A war crimes?

[Novus America]

Provking the British, Americans and Dutch is an Easy target.

Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.

No, Japan declared war on the Netherlands and Britain at the shortly AFTER attacking Pearl Harbor!
Japan started the Second Sino Japanese War in 1937!
The United Nations did not even exist at the time, the League of Nations rightly had criticized Japanese genocide against the Chinese but the US was not par of the league!

Your timeline is completely wack.

The US had perfectly legal and legitimate business and political interests in China, and had a perfectly legitimate interest in a independent China maintaining a balance of power, and economic access in Asia.

Japan attacked China committing atrocities so gross that even the Nazis thought Japan went too far, destroyed US business and ships, sank a US warship and assaulted a US diplomat!

Japan had zero right to do those things and the US had every right to be crazy pissed.
The US had every right to declare war on Japan in 1937!

Instead we stopped selling Japan some goods (and we had every right to determine who could buy our stuff). And told Japan to stop its illegal, unjustified and genocidal war in China and we would drop the sanctions.

So your kids thesis is completely wrong on so many levels.

The only way the “Japan was provoked” argument works is if Japan has an exclusive right to rule Asia that trumpets the rights of not only all other countries, but also the rights of all “inferior” races in Asia, and rape and slaughter said “inferior” races. And that Japan automatically had the right to get as much oil as it wanted from whoever it wanted in order to do so.

Obviously that is all total Bullshit and only makes sense if you accept the horrible Racism and weird political/religious beliefs of the Japanese government at the time.

[NERVUN]

*headdesks* Let's try this again...

The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.

You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.

Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?

Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.

Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.

[Vrolondia]

Wtf?

America has the right to stop trading with a rogue nation, they're after all a sovereign nation too.

True dat fam

[Andsed]

*headdesks* Let's try this again...

The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.

You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.

Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?

I just saw this and all I can say is... ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! Are you honestly saying that Japan war crimes which were as brutal as the Nazi´s were okay and did not warrant punishment because they did not sign a fucking treaty?! Japan through there aggressive actions and war crimes got themselves sanctioned and quite frankly Japan had no right to complain about those sanctions.

[Novus America]

*headdesks* Let's try this again...

The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.

You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.

Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?

Um what gave Japan the right to interfere in US and Chinese diplomatic relations?
That argument only works if the US and China lack sovereignty and only Japan has it.

China and the US were sovereign nations too.

And Japanese actions in China were not “diplomatic”, it was a genocidal war involving war crimes even the Nazis thought extreme.

Also Japan destroyed us ships and businesses, sank a US warship and assuaged a US diplomat!
No shit they got sanctioned!

Plus Japan had no automatic right to US goods, and as a sovereign nation the US had every right to decide who we did and did not trade with.

[Vrolondia]

You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.

Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?

Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.

Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.

I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.

And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.

[Rusthenia]

Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.

Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.

I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.

And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.

"The Imperial Shrine of Yasukuni, informally known as the Yasukuni Shrine (靖国神社or靖國神社 Yasukuni Jinja), is a Shinto shrine located in Chiyoda, Tokyo, Japan. It was founded by Emperor Meiji in June 1869 and commemorates those who died in service of Japan from the Boshin War of 1868–1869 to the First Indochina War of 1946–1954.[1] The shrine's purpose has been expanded over the years to include those who died in the wars involving Japan spanning from the entire Meiji and Taishō periods, and the lesser part of the Shōwa period.[2]

The shrine lists the names, origins, birthdates, and places of death of 2,466,532 men, women and children, including various pet animals. Among those are 1,068 convicted war criminals, 14 of whom are A-Class (leading to the Yasukuni controversies). Another memorial at the Honden building commemorates anyone who died on behalf of Japan, but includes Koreans and Taiwanese who served Japan at the time. In addition, the Chinreisha building is a shrine built to inter the souls of all the people who died during WWII, regardless of their nationality. It is located directly south of the Yasukuni Honden.

Various Shinto festivals are associated with the shrine, particularly in Spring and Autumn seasons when portable Mikoshi shrines are rounded about honoring the ancestral gods of Japan. A notable image of the shrine is the Japanese Imperial Chrysanthemum featured on the gate curtains leading into the shrine. More recently, the visitation of the shrine by active Japanese diplomats and legislators have brought public controversy in global media. The current 13th High Priest incumbent of the shrine is Tatebumi Yamaguchi, who was appointed on 1 November 2018 after Kunio Kobori. "

TL:DR Shrine for Japanese soldiers, most of which (from WW2) were war criminals

[Andsed]

Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.

Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.

I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.

And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.

You are trying to imply that Japan was provoked by the sanctions when that is utter bullshit. Japan was provoking others through their aggressive actions and war crimes and they deserved those sanctions.

[Vrolondia]

You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.

Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?

I just saw this and all I can say is... ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! Are you honestly saying that Japan war crimes which were as brutal as the Nazi´s were okay and did not warrant punishment because they did not sign a fucking treaty?! Japan through there aggressive actions and war crimes got themselves sanctioned and quite frankly Japan had no right to complain about those sanctions.

Legally? That's exactly what I'm saying. Morally? God no.
But if I have a chocolate chip cookie and you have a vanilla cookie I'm not going to exclusively eat vanilla cookies because you get angry when I eat chocolate chip ones. That's just silly.

[Novus America]

Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.

Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.

I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.

And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.

Yaksukuni is a Japanese shrine and museum that argues Japan was morally right and unfairly attacked for starting unjustified genocidal wars.

And you are correct the US was stupid for not taking better preparations.
But that has nothing to do with who was right or wrong. Japan was clearly in the wrong.

[Rusthenia]

I just saw this and all I can say is... ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! Are you honestly saying that Japan war crimes which were as brutal as the Nazi´s were okay and did not warrant punishment because they did not sign a fucking treaty?! Japan through there aggressive actions and war crimes got themselves sanctioned and quite frankly Japan had no right to complain about those sanctions.

Legally? That's exactly what I'm saying. Morally? God no.
But if I have a chocolate chip cookie and you have a vanilla cookie I'm not going to exclusively eat vanilla cookies because you get angry when I eat chocolate chip ones. That's just silly.

so it's wrong for an nation to sanction one for commit war crimes? If you need an example the Rape of Nanking

[Vrolondia]

I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.

And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.

You are trying to imply that Japan was provoked by the sanctions when that is utter bullshit. Japan was provoking others through their aggressive actions and war crimes and they deserved those sanctions.

I'm not saying they didn't deserve those sanctions at all. I'm saying that attacking the US because of them was largely understandable due to their diplomatic position.

[Atheris]

Haven't seen it yet, so here goes.

Yesterday, December 7, 1941 — a date which will live in infamy — the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.
The United States was at peace with that nation, and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its Emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.
Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese Ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. And, while this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or of armed attack.
It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time the Japanese Government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.
The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian Islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.
Yesterday the Japanese Government also launched an attack against Malaya.
Last night Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.
Last night Japanese forces attacked Guam.
Last night Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.
Last night the Japanese attacked Wake Island.
And this morning the Japanese attacked Midway Island.
Japan has therefore undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.
As Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense, that always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.
No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people, in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory.
I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.
Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.
With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.
I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire.

[Andsed]

Legally? That's exactly what I'm saying. Morally? God no.

Okay you seem to be implying because Japan did not sign some treaty´s that the sanctions were not just. Untrue Japan through it aggressive actions and war crimes was way out of line and needed some sanctions to bring it down to reality. Just because they did not sign some fucking treaty´s does not mean Japan is immune to sanctions and punishments for their quite frankly savage and barbaric actions.

But if I have a chocolate chip cookie and you have a vanilla cookie I'm not going to exclusively eat vanilla cookies because you get angry when I eat chocolate chip ones. That's just silly

What are you trying to say? Cause this metaphor makes no sense in the given context.