Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.
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by Vrolondia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:54 pm
Milozoldyck wrote:That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.
by Steampunk World War 1 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:59 pm
Vrolondia wrote:Japan attacked the US because the UN, led by US advances, internationally condemned their actions in the second Sino - Japanese war.
Further influencing the attack was the US decision to embargo machine and air plane parts, then later oil, to Japan essentially crippling the fleet while they were poised to conquer French and British territory in the east, forcing them to target the oil rich Dutch East Indies in order to continue the war.
Furthermore the attack at Pearl Harbor came a mere 9 months after FDR'S Lend-lease agreement, giving aid to all of Japans enemies, and US threats of war should Japan continue its aggression.
So with Japan condemned imternationally, embargoed from parts, supplies, and oil, then told if they invade the one place the need to fix all that America will attack them they were forced into a corner, and crippling the American Pacific fleet was the only viable option Japan had to continue its wars and diplomatic standing, with the hope America wouldn't be able to respond before Japan was ready, or even be strong armed into not going to war.
Sound an aweful lot like the US interfering with Japanese foreign policy in a war they were supposedly neutral in, then blaming Japan when they treated them the way America was acting.
Eh.
by Rusthenia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:59 pm
Vrolondia wrote:
Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.
USS Monitor wrote:It's long...
Moskva Chronicle: TEMPORARILY CLOSED
by NERVUN » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:00 pm
Vrolondia wrote:
Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.
by Earth Luna and Mars » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:05 pm
Vrolondia wrote:
Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.
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by Vrolondia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:06 pm
NERVUN wrote:Vrolondia wrote:
Of course not. It's America's fault Japan decided to invade the East Indies, China was just an easier target.
Um... No. Your timeline is rather messed up.
Japan provoked a war with China (Marco Polo Bridge Incident), which led to some rather horrific acts that caused the US to react (Partially on humanitarian grounds, partially as reprisals due to Japanese actions, and partially in defense of the open door policy). Due to oil being cut off, Japan attempted to attack the East Indies. Due to fighting between the IJA and the IJN, it also decided that going after the Philippines and other colonies would be a good idea as well... thus attacking America.
All of which falls apart as a justification for Japan's actions when you read the bit about provoking the war with China in the first place.
Milozoldyck wrote:That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.
by NERVUN » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:10 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:Um... No. Your timeline is rather messed up.
Japan provoked a war with China (Marco Polo Bridge Incident), which led to some rather horrific acts that caused the US to react (Partially on humanitarian grounds, partially as reprisals due to Japanese actions, and partially in defense of the open door policy). Due to oil being cut off, Japan attempted to attack the East Indies. Due to fighting between the IJA and the IJN, it also decided that going after the Philippines and other colonies would be a good idea as well... thus attacking America.
All of which falls apart as a justification for Japan's actions when you read the bit about provoking the war with China in the first place.
I never said the war with China was related to America... I know it wasn't. I said they invaded the easy indies because America embargoed them and the needed oil since Manchuria wasn't supplying them with enough.
I meant it more like, they went after Manchuria in 1931 because its one of the heavy oil production regions in the area since they had no other real means of getting oil. They could have gone after the Dutch, but China was split by a civil war. In 1937 they went after the coast and major cities, but couldn't control the countryside. US cut the oil off when they invaded French Indochina, so they went for the islands, mainly the east indies.
If the US hadn't cut them off would they have gone after the east indies? Honestly I think they would have just stuck around in China since their manpower kept them from occupying the entire country.
by Vrolondia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:16 pm
NERVUN wrote:Vrolondia wrote:I never said the war with China was related to America... I know it wasn't. I said they invaded the easy indies because America embargoed them and the needed oil since Manchuria wasn't supplying them with enough.
I meant it more like, they went after Manchuria in 1931 because its one of the heavy oil production regions in the area since they had no other real means of getting oil. They could have gone after the Dutch, but China was split by a civil war. In 1937 they went after the coast and major cities, but couldn't control the countryside. US cut the oil off when they invaded French Indochina, so they went for the islands, mainly the east indies.
If the US hadn't cut them off would they have gone after the east indies? Honestly I think they would have just stuck around in China since their manpower kept them from occupying the entire country.
*headdesks* Let's try this again...
The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.
Milozoldyck wrote:That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.
by The National Salvation Front for Russia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:17 pm
by Andsed » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:18 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:*headdesks* Let's try this again...
The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.
You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those scions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.
by Rusthenia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:18 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:*headdesks* Let's try this again...
The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.
You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those scions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.
USS Monitor wrote:It's long...
Moskva Chronicle: TEMPORARILY CLOSED
by Novus America » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:21 pm
Vrolondia wrote:
Japan was already at war with Britain and The Netherlands, it's not really a hard decision at that point. If big poppa Murica cuts you off and China isn't supplying you with enough oil you go after the place who's government just collapsed.
by NERVUN » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:22 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:*headdesks* Let's try this again...
The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.
You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.
Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?
by Vrolondia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:23 pm
The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:Wtf?
America has the right to stop trading with a rogue nation, they're after all a sovereign nation too.
Milozoldyck wrote:That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.
by Andsed » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:25 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:*headdesks* Let's try this again...
The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.
You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.
Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?
by Novus America » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:27 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:*headdesks* Let's try this again...
The notion that Japan was provoked into Pearl only holds if you accept that Japan's actions in China were in any way acceptable. They were not. Nor, regardless of what Yasukuni says, were America's actions suddenly out of the blue. America didn't decide to just pick on Japan one day. It did so in reaction to Japan's actions in China. If Japan hadn't done what it did in China, America wouldn't have slapped an embargo and sanctions on it. The two events are related.
You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.
Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?
by Vrolondia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:27 pm
NERVUN wrote:Vrolondia wrote:You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.
Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?
Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.
Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.
Milozoldyck wrote:That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.
by Rusthenia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.
Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.
I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.
And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.
USS Monitor wrote:It's long...
Moskva Chronicle: TEMPORARILY CLOSED
by Andsed » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.
Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.
I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.
And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.
by Vrolondia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:32 pm
Andsed wrote:Vrolondia wrote:You're Implying America had the right to interfere with the diplomatic policy of a sovereign nation, which they don't.
You can justify America's sanctions whatever way you want but at the end of the day if those sactions weren't in place America wouldn't have been attacked. You have the right to say what you want but you also have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Japans actions got them sanctioned. America's actions got them attacked.
Further Japan was under no obligation to follow humanitarian policy as they were not signatories to it, so why would they let America strong arm them?
I just saw this and all I can say is... ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! Are you honestly saying that Japan war crimes which were as brutal as the Nazi´s were okay and did not warrant punishment because they did not sign a fucking treaty?! Japan through there aggressive actions and war crimes got themselves sanctioned and quite frankly Japan had no right to complain about those sanctions.
Milozoldyck wrote:That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.
by Novus America » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:32 pm
Vrolondia wrote:NERVUN wrote:Wow... I haven't seen something this silly since... well, since I went to Yasukuni.
Japan invaded a sovereign state. the US, also a sovereign state who had a previous record of saying "Don't do that" responded, and when they were ignored, exercised their sovereign rights to not have to trade with people they don't want to. Japan simply wasn't provoked. Japan did the provoking.
I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.
And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.
by Rusthenia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:34 pm
Vrolondia wrote:Andsed wrote:I just saw this and all I can say is... ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! Are you honestly saying that Japan war crimes which were as brutal as the Nazi´s were okay and did not warrant punishment because they did not sign a fucking treaty?! Japan through there aggressive actions and war crimes got themselves sanctioned and quite frankly Japan had no right to complain about those sanctions.
Legally? That's exactly what I'm saying. Morally? God no.
But if I have a chocolate chip cookie and you have a vanilla cookie I'm not going to exclusively eat vanilla cookies because you get angry when I eat chocolate chip ones. That's just silly.
USS Monitor wrote:It's long...
Moskva Chronicle: TEMPORARILY CLOSED
by Vrolondia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:35 pm
Andsed wrote:Vrolondia wrote:I have no idea what Yasukuni is but you keep saying it.
And they had every right to do that. I'm just saying that if you take away a violent addicts drug it will react violently to get what it wants, so it was a stupid decision if they had no plans to mobilize to protect their fleet, which they largely didn't.
You are trying to imply that Japan was provoked by the sanctions when that is utter bullshit. Japan was provoking others through their aggressive actions and war crimes and they deserved those sanctions.
Milozoldyck wrote:That's why I'm going back to RP. GP is hopeless. Have fun bringing those windmills to justice, Don Quixote.
by Atheris » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:37 pm
by Andsed » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:37 pm
Legally? That's exactly what I'm saying. Morally? God no.
But if I have a chocolate chip cookie and you have a vanilla cookie I'm not going to exclusively eat vanilla cookies because you get angry when I eat chocolate chip ones. That's just silly
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