Remembering December 7th, 1941

[The New California Republic]

Depends on whoose lives. It saved the lives of *Some* would-be sudical bombers and american soldiers. However it also cost the lives of Japanese Civs would might of survived the war.

Mass starvation from the war continuing would have killed millions of Japanese civilians.
So would a land invasion.

Japan planned on giving pretty much everyone bamboo spears and sending them charging into battle. There would be no civilians. Plus the starvation thing would still happen.

Mass civilians deaths was a given. Regardless of the option.

There likely would have been mass suicides as well, because the Japanese government and military said to the population that the American soldiers would do terrible things to women and children if they were captured. Such mass suicides were seen when Saipan and Okinawa were invaded.

https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/ ... s-suicides

[Mohacian]

Well Pearl Harbor failed the battle BUTT.... theres more, the U.S declared a re-match battle against the Japanese military and the American military BOMBED Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Rusthenia]

May we never forget the Day of Infamy and those who died in this unprovoked attack. May Americans also remember those who died protecting our nation against the forces of evil during this trying time.

The bombing of Pearl Harbour was not unprovoked, the US Navy North Pacific Squadron had been actively extending towards Japan since before it annexed Midway Island in 1867 - named Midway specifically because it was the halfway point between the US and Japan.
US interest had long interferred with Japanese trade and diplomatic relationships with the Kingdom of Hawaii culmination ultimately with the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy during which a US naval vessel had canons aimed at Honululu and its marines marched up to the royal palace. Pearl Harbour was fortified in 1899 following the annexation of Hawaii specifically in response to war in South East Asia (especially Phillipines) in order to become the main base of operations in war against Japan.

Of course the Japanese were equally dickish with their ambitions for an Asian empire as seen in the Invasion of Manchuria and Indochina and its Southern Doctrine, Japans whole intention when it bombed Pearl Harbour was to prevent the US from interferring with its actions in South East Asia

No, I do not see Pearl Harbour being successful for the Japanese. They failed to destroy the US aircraft carriers, which would prove vital in Midway. Destroying older battleships might’ve seemed crucial to the Japanese, who still followed the B.B. doctrine, but it did little to nothing but anger the US into joining the war and activating its war machine. The Japanese would’ve had to attack the US eventually, but this wasn’t the right time or place and only spelled their fate.

one of the ironies is that if Japan had declared war before bombing its likely that the US ships would have been sortied out to deeper water and thus more effectively sunk and made unrecoverable. That would have been a greater blow which may have worked to better cripple the Pacific fleet.

Japan in targeting the Battleships also failed to hit repair yards and refueling stations and also did not sink the Aircraft carriers, which is what the US relied upon when they responded

the rest of course is history

it was for an war with spain. saing it was "JUST JAPAN LOL" isn't right

[The Huskar Social Union]

Well Pearl Harbor failed the battle BUTT.... theres more, the U.S declared a re-match battle against the Japanese military and the American military BOMBED Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Well theres a lot more that happened but yeah sure

[Internationalist Bastard]

Look how well it worked out for them

[Novus America]

What's interesting about this entire event is that I believe Japan sent ambassadors to the United States to get their oil supply back. And I do believe Pearl Harbor was under attack at the time when the ambassadors visited.

Japan did send some ambassadors to negotiate. But the US made it clear Japan would have to end its genocidal war against China to get the sanctions lifted.
Japan decided starting wars against the US, British Commonwealth and Empire, and the Netherlands all at the same time was better than admitting the invasion of China was a mistake.

[Internationalist Bastard]

What's interesting about this entire event is that I believe Japan sent ambassadors to the United States to get their oil supply back. And I do believe Pearl Harbor was under attack at the time when the ambassadors visited.

Japan did send some ambassadors to negotiate. But the US made it clear Japan would have to end its genocidal war against China to get the sanctions lifted.
Japan decided starting wars against the US, British Commonwealth and Empire, and the Netherlands all at the same time was better than admitting the invasion of China was a mistake.

Don’t forget invading Indochina

[South Ccanda]

In before the "FDR DID PEARL HARBOR!" posts.

I happen to be half Japanese my grandfather was in California when had to go to a camp. From what he said it was just a average day except the camps were in poor condition and the tight spaces in some of the rooms.

Would they be able to share a few of their stories?

[Novus America]

Japan did send some ambassadors to negotiate. But the US made it clear Japan would have to end its genocidal war against China to get the sanctions lifted.
Japan decided starting wars against the US, British Commonwealth and Empire, and the Netherlands all at the same time was better than admitting the invasion of China was a mistake.

Don’t forget invading Indochina

True, that was another sticking point but the biggest issue was China.

[Solorni]

A couple notes based on a few of the above posts;

There was absolutely no way the Japanese could have ever defeated the USA. Japan never had more aircraft carriers during the war than they did at the start of it. The USA was producing them at a ridiculous scale and were producing more of them per year than the Japanese ever had.

Secondly, someone said that in the rematch America won by bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This seems to ignore how the Americans did far more damage to other Japanese cities with conventional bombing. There has been a bit of myth-making in focusing on the atomic bombs while ignoring other bombing campaigns that did just as much damage.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Don’t forget invading Indochina

True, that was another sticking point but the biggest issue was China.

Oh I agree it’s just funny to think how the Axis powers just kinda went on a spree of,”let’s go to war with everyone”

[Rusthenia]

True, that was another sticking point but the biggest issue was China.

Oh I agree it’s just funny to think how the Axis powers just kinda went on a spree of,”let’s go to war with everyone”

-Hitler (Probably)

[Earth Luna and Mars]

What's interesting about this entire event is that I believe Japan sent ambassadors to the United States to get their oil supply back. And I do believe Pearl Harbor was under attack at the time when the ambassadors visited.

Japan was also planning a invasion on the Hawaiian islands after they attacked Pearl Harbor. But they knew a invasion on Hawaii will be risky so they didn't go with the plan.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Oh I agree it’s just funny to think how the Axis powers just kinda went on a spree of,”let’s go to war with everyone”

-Hitler (Probably)

I always like to imagine some general standing there
“Mein Fuhrer, maybe we should hold off on Barbarossa until—“
“Nien! And help the Italians with their irrelevant conquests”

[Andsed]

Oh I agree it’s just funny to think how the Axis powers just kinda went on a spree of,”let’s go to war with everyone”

-Hitler (Probably)

I mean the axis did not have many options other than be aggressive. They were all dealing with supply and resource issues over the course of the war with a lack of Oil be a massive issue for Germany and Japan. They needed to be aggressive to not only gain the resources they needed but to make sure they did not get stuck in a protracted war which is what happened.

[Novus America]

A couple notes based on a few of the above posts;

There was absolutely no way the Japanese could have ever defeated the USA. Japan never had more aircraft carriers during the war than they did at the start of it. The USA was producing them at a ridiculous scale and were producing more of them per year than the Japanese ever had.

Secondly, someone said that in the rematch America won by bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This seems to ignore how the Americans did far more damage to other Japanese cities with conventional bombing. There has been a bit of myth-making in focusing on the atomic bombs while ignoring other bombing campaigns that did just as much damage.

Operation Meetinghouse was the deadliest single air attack, more so than either nuclear bomb.
Had the nukes not been used the continuation of conventional air attacks would have killed more as you point out.

[Internationalist Bastard]

-Hitler (Probably)

I mean the axis did not have many options other than be aggressive. They were all dealing with supply and resource issues over the course of the war with a lack of Oil be a massive issue for Germany and Japan. They needed to be aggressive to not only gain the resources they needed but to make sure they did not get stuck in a protracted war which is what happened.

They wouldn’t have gotten caught in a long protracted war they’d lose if they didn’t start said war

[Novus America]

-Hitler (Probably)

I mean the axis did not have many options other than be aggressive. They were all dealing with supply and resource issues over the course of the war with a lack of Oil be a massive issue for Germany and Japan. They needed to be aggressive to not only gain the resources they needed but to make sure they did not get stuck in a protracted war which is what happened.

After they had invaded Poland and China, true.
Though a protracted war was basically inevitable. They did not have a feasible way to win quickly enough.

But they always had the option of not invading Poland and China in the first place.

Basically as soon as they decided to invade Poland and China they were screwed.

[Steampunk World War 1]

In before the "FDR DID PEARL HARBOR!" posts.

I happen to be half Japanese my grandfather was in California when had to go to a camp. From what he said it was just a average day except the camps were in poor condition and the tight spaces in some of the rooms.

Would they be able to share a few of their stories?

He sadly passed away two years ago but, if you want to hear interesting stories about life in a Japanese Interment Camp.

There are plently of websites and books about them in the point of view of a Japanese-American.

[Andsed]

I mean the axis did not have many options other than be aggressive. They were all dealing with supply and resource issues over the course of the war with a lack of Oil be a massive issue for Germany and Japan. They needed to be aggressive to not only gain the resources they needed but to make sure they did not get stuck in a protracted war which is what happened.

They wouldn’t have gotten caught in a long protracted war they’d lose if they didn’t start said war

True but once they go into that war cause you know fuckin Nazis they really had to be aggressive. But yeah not starting a war would have been their best option.

I mean the axis did not have many options other than be aggressive. They were all dealing with supply and resource issues over the course of the war with a lack of Oil be a massive issue for Germany and Japan. They needed to be aggressive to not only gain the resources they needed but to make sure they did not get stuck in a protracted war which is what happened.

After they had invaded Poland and China, true.
But they always had the option of not invading Poland and China in the first place.

Agreed but once they did cause fuckin fascist idiots they had to be aggressive.

[Solorni]

A couple notes based on a few of the above posts;

There was absolutely no way the Japanese could have ever defeated the USA. Japan never had more aircraft carriers during the war than they did at the start of it. The USA was producing them at a ridiculous scale and were producing more of them per year than the Japanese ever had.

Secondly, someone said that in the rematch America won by bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This seems to ignore how the Americans did far more damage to other Japanese cities with conventional bombing. There has been a bit of myth-making in focusing on the atomic bombs while ignoring other bombing campaigns that did just as much damage.

Operation Meetinghouse was the deadliest single air attack, more so than either nuclear bomb.
Had the nukes not been used the continuation of conventional air attacks would have killed more as you point out.

Certainly to get the peace the allies wanted. I believe that Japan had been willing to surrender, just not on the terms that the allies wanted however. So I don't think that more conventional attacks were necessary. I do believe that the emphasis on using nuclear weapons on Japan and the de-emphasis of Japan's war crimes were part of a strategy to bring Japan into the American fold against the Soviet Union and communism.

[Earth Luna and Mars]

Would they be able to share a few of their stories?

He sadly passed away two years ago but, if you want to hear interesting stories about life in a Japanese Interment Camp.

There are plently of websites and books about them in the point of view of a Japanese-American.

I feel like historians don't talk about the Interment Camps that much they always seem to focus on what happen in Europe and Asia and not discuss the human right violations of putting Japanese-Americans into camps.

[Andsed]

He sadly passed away two years ago but, if you want to hear interesting stories about life in a Japanese Interment Camp.

There are plently of websites and books about them in the point of view of a Japanese-American.

I feel like historians don't talk about the Interment Camps that much they always seem to focus on what happen in Europe and Asia and not discuss the human right violations of putting Japanese-Americans into camps.

Yeah the whole Interment Camps were incredibly oppressive and fascist like. I guess it just goes to show that WW2 was not black and white more of a ugly grey area.

[Solorni]

I feel like historians don't talk about the Interment Camps that much they always seem to focus on what happen in Europe and Asia and not discuss the human right violations of putting Japanese-Americans into camps.

Yeah the whole Interment Camps were incredibly oppressive and fascist like. I guess it just goes to show that WW2 was not black and white more of a ugly grey area.

While the internment camps were incredibly awful and unnecessary, I don't think they are very comparable to how oppressive fascists were or compared to war crimes committed abroad.

[Steampunk World War 1]

He sadly passed away two years ago but, if you want to hear interesting stories about life in a Japanese Interment Camp.

There are plently of websites and books about them in the point of view of a Japanese-American.

I feel like historians don't talk about the Interment Camps that much they always seem to focus on what happen in Europe and Asia and not discuss the human right violations of putting Japanese-Americans into camps.

As a Japanese-American citizen I do think it was harsh to put them into Interment Camps. But then again the U.S. was now dragged into a war against Japan and Germany after the events of Pearl Harbor.

So this led to the people and Government to be scared of spies in the country which is why Japanese-American citizens suffered racist attacks.