Must Santa always be an fat old white guy?

[Vassenor]

Looks pretty dark to me.

Based on what, one singular Russian icon from the 18th century?

The man was born a Greek Roman in Anatolia in the 3rd century AD. He was white, or "olive-skinned" if you want to be particular.

But crucially not northern European as everyone is insisting that he must be because tradition.

[Genivaria]

On my works main screen there's a black Santa statue so apparently not.

[Canadensia]

Based on what, one singular Russian icon from the 18th century?

The man was born a Greek Roman in Anatolia in the 3rd century AD. He was white, or "olive-skinned" if you want to be particular.

But crucially not northern European as everyone is insisting that he must be because tradition.

No, not northern European.

As far as historical fact is concerned, his skin colour would likely have been olive, which was pretty much the staple of most cultures surrounding the Mediterranean Basin at the time. Cultural depictions have naturally varied throughout the ages, but that's really neither here nor there.

[Seangoli]

Looks pretty dark to me.

Based on what, one singular Russian icon from the 18th century?

The man was born a Greek Roman in Anatolia in the 3rd century AD. He was white, or "olive-skinned" if you want to be particular.

The Modern depiction ofnSt. Nicholaus is a northern european with extremely pale skin and a flowing white beard and quite rotund.

This depiction is about as close to the real St. Nicholaus as a black St. Nicholaus.

Northern Europeans have stark physical differences from southern Europeans, and screaming "Santa is white!" At the top of your lungs like that means much of anything isnjust silly. People in Anatolia and even in Greece proper would not often appear stereotypical "white", in either the modern or historical sense, which based moreso on on Northern European attributes.

[Canadensia]

Based on what, one singular Russian icon from the 18th century?

The man was born a Greek Roman in Anatolia in the 3rd century AD. He was white, or "olive-skinned" if you want to be particular.

The Modern depiction ofnSt. Nicholaus is a northern european with extremely pale skin and a flowing white beard and quite rotund.

This depiction is about as close to the real St. Nicholaus as a black St. Nicholaus.

Northern Europeans have stark physical differences from southern Europeans, and screaming "Santa is white!" At the top of your lungs like that means much of anything isnjust silly. People in Anatolia and even in Greece proper would not often appear stereotypical "white", in either the modern or historical sense, which based moreso on on Northern European attributes.

Southern Europeans haven't been regarded as 'non-white' since the better part of half-a-century, but even so, there's quite the substantial difference in skin tone between a black and northern european man; as opposed to the difference in skin tone between a northern and southern european.

[Seangoli]

The Modern depiction ofnSt. Nicholaus is a northern european with extremely pale skin and a flowing white beard and quite rotund.

This depiction is about as close to the real St. Nicholaus as a black St. Nicholaus.

Northern Europeans have stark physical differences from southern Europeans, and screaming "Santa is white!" At the top of your lungs like that means much of anything isnjust silly. People in Anatolia and even in Greece proper would not often appear stereotypical "white", in either the modern or historical sense, which based moreso on on Northern European attributes.

Southern Europeans haven't been regarded as 'non-white' since the better part of half-a-century, but even so, there's quite the substantial difference in skin tone between a black and northern european man; as opposed to the difference in skin tone between a northern and southern european.

As an Italian, whose family came from Southern Italy, and whose father is darker skinned than many black people where I come from, I have always found this statement dubious, at best, owing to a comete lack of interaction with Italians and others with "olive" skin. Mediteranean olive skin can range dramatically from fairly white to damn near black, and saying it is more similar to Northern European skin color is hilariously reductionist to the point of absurdity. Many Mediterranean folk look damn near nothing like Northern Europeans (or at least no more similar than they do to a lot of Middle Eastern and African populations) and lumping them together is pretty hilarious, given my experience. Southern Europeans often look more akin to Northern Africans than they do to Northern Europeans, whom in turn look closer to other Africans than they do to Northern Europeans.

Owing to the fact that Mediterranean peoples are heavily mixed ethnically, and have classically been for quite some time.

The reality of population demographics is a hell of a lot more complicated than "All of Europe=White"

[Canadensia]

Southern Europeans haven't been regarded as 'non-white' since the better part of half-a-century, but even so, there's quite the substantial difference in skin tone between a black and northern european man; as opposed to the difference in skin tone between a northern and southern european.

As an Italian, whose family came from Southern Italy, and whose father is darker skinned than many black people where I come from, I have always found this statement dubious, at best, owing to a comete lack of interaction with Italians and others with "olive" skin. Mediteranean olive skin can range dramatically from fairly white to damn near black, and saying it is more similar to Northern European skin color is hilariously reductionist to the point of absurdity. Many Mediterranean folk look damn near nothing like Northern Europeans (or at least no more similar than they do to a lot of Middle Eastern and African populations) and lumping them together is pretty hilarious, giveny experience.

Owing to the fact that Mediterranean peoples are heavily mixed ethnically, and have classically been for quite some time.

Fair enough, but we're talking about 3rd century AD Anatolia here. This is pre-Turkic, Arab and Germanic conquests, so with the exception of maybe Numidia, the Mediterranean Basin is mostly populated by people with a very light shade of olive skin. St. Nicholas wouldn't have been some lily-white northern european, no, but I'd say it's substantially more ridiculous to think that he'd have been pitch-black or some variation thereof.

[Vassenor]

This does still raise the question of why the hell it even matters what colour his skin is.

[Seangoli]

As an Italian, whose family came from Southern Italy, and whose father is darker skinned than many black people where I come from, I have always found this statement dubious, at best, owing to a comete lack of interaction with Italians and others with "olive" skin. Mediteranean olive skin can range dramatically from fairly white to damn near black, and saying it is more similar to Northern European skin color is hilariously reductionist to the point of absurdity. Many Mediterranean folk look damn near nothing like Northern Europeans (or at least no more similar than they do to a lot of Middle Eastern and African populations) and lumping them together is pretty hilarious, giveny experience.

Owing to the fact that Mediterranean peoples are heavily mixed ethnically, and have classically been for quite some time.

Fair enough, but we're talking about 3rd century AD Anatolia here. This is pre-Turkic, Arab and Germanic conquests, so with the exception of maybe Numidia, the Mediterranean Basin is mostly populated by people with a very light shade of olive skin. St. Nicholas wouldn't have been some lily-white northern european, no, but I'd say it's substantially more ridiculous to think that he'd have been pitch-black or some variation thereof.

The point I am getting at is that the modern depiction of Santa Clause as a rotund, jolly, lily-white duse in a red fur coat is about as ckose the actual St. Nicholas as a black Santa. It is a fanciful rendition based on localized folklore amalgamations and localizing his appearance significantly, to the point of being practically unrecognizable when compared with the real-life counterpart. If you are going to argue that Santa should be white because St. Nicholas is white, I am going to point out that the modern depiction of Santa js about as close to the reality as a Black Santa is.

The fact is, the modern depiction of Santa Clause is related to the actual St. Nicholaus in almost name only, and his depiction as a lily-white fat dude is so far from the truth that this argument is defunct. If we are to make allowances for this depiction based on imaginative uses of local folklore, then I see no damn reason why we cannot let others do the same in a manner that is no more absurdist to reality than the modern depiction.

[Dooom35796821595]

This does still raise the question of why the hell it even matters what colour his skin is.

Trick question, his skin is actually a mirror crystalline structure that appears as whatever colour the person who sees him expects. So the only one to blame for his skin tone is your own preconceptions.

In other news, Coca-Cola is developing state of the art camouflage for the DoD.

[Senegalboy]

Saint Nicholas wasn't White,he was from Turkey.

Which was predominantly Greek at the time.

If you're going to be a know-it-all, at least get your facts straight.

Turkey was predominantly Greek in terms of culture and language but in terms of ethnicity Turkey was still inhabited by The Indigenous Anatolians. Also you should change the way you are trying to state your point.

[Shofercia]

So while other countries deal with gun violence, climate change and child sex trafficking, New Zealand this month has faced no less than two controversies concerning Santa and whether Santa parades can have the jolly Elf portrayed 1) by a Women 2) by another ethnicity (in this case a NZ Maori dressed in a red feather cloak)

People have lost jobs over the debate, Media commentators have had a field day and City Mayors have been forced to apologies to the nation. The fact they are debating a fictional character/marketing gimmick seems to have been overlooked in favour of outrage about tradition and anti-PC-ism.

So oh festive revellers of NSG as we wait for the lolly scramble could you gift me with your opinions - would you be outraged/saddened or confused if your communities local public Santa was non-standard Gender or Ethnicity? Can Santa be portrayed as anything other than a fat old white man?

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national ... son-locals
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/109054 ... aori-santa
https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/108860 ... -the-boots

Santa is based on St. Nicholas: https://www.whychristmas.com/customs/fa ... tmas.shtml

That said, numerous people, including women and folks that aren't white, can portray Santa. As for the fat part, that was added by Coca Cola, so unless you really care about offending Coke, thin people can portray Santa too. I think Coke offended itself with Coke Zero, so you can just go ahead and have thin people be Santa.

[The Archregimancy]

Saint Nicholas wasn't White,he was from Turkey.

Which was predominantly Greek at the time.

Hmmm.

Not necessarily.

In the coastal regions such as Myra, very likely yes.

Inland, not so much; at least not in the 3rd to 4th centuries. It rather depended.

[Imperializt Russia]

As an Italian, whose family came from Southern Italy, and whose father is darker skinned than many black people where I come from, I have always found this statement dubious, at best, owing to a comete lack of interaction with Italians and others with "olive" skin. Mediteranean olive skin can range dramatically from fairly white to damn near black, and saying it is more similar to Northern European skin color is hilariously reductionist to the point of absurdity. Many Mediterranean folk look damn near nothing like Northern Europeans (or at least no more similar than they do to a lot of Middle Eastern and African populations) and lumping them together is pretty hilarious, giveny experience.

Owing to the fact that Mediterranean peoples are heavily mixed ethnically, and have classically been for quite some time.

Fair enough, but we're talking about 3rd century AD Anatolia here. This is pre-Turkic, Arab and Germanic conquests, so with the exception of maybe Numidia, the Mediterranean Basin is mostly populated by people with a very light shade of olive skin. St. Nicholas wouldn't have been some lily-white northern european, no, but I'd say it's substantially more ridiculous to think that he'd have been pitch-black or some variation thereof.

So, maybe that 18th century Russian relief isn't so ridiculous after all.

[Rio Cana]

According to a Finnish movie, he liked to boiled kids who were bad. He was giant size and it seems at times not too friendly. That is why the Sami people froze him in a lake. And watch out for the elves. The elves gathered up the bad kids. And they will stop at nothing to do.

Short trailer of that movie called "Rare Exports' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSx0YjOUkMQ

[The Alma Mater]

According to a Finnish movie, he liked to boiled kids who were bad. He was giant size and it seems at times not too friendly. That is why the Sami people froze him in a lake. And watch out for the elves. The elves gathered up the bad kids. And they will stop at nothing to do.

Short trailer of that movie called "Rare Exports' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSx0YjOUkMQ

The original short that spawned said movie is much better

https://vimeo.com/16878465

[Seangoli]

Fair enough, but we're talking about 3rd century AD Anatolia here. This is pre-Turkic, Arab and Germanic conquests, so with the exception of maybe Numidia, the Mediterranean Basin is mostly populated by people with a very light shade of olive skin. St. Nicholas wouldn't have been some lily-white northern european, no, but I'd say it's substantially more ridiculous to think that he'd have been pitch-black or some variation thereof.

So, maybe that 18th century Russian relief isn't so ridiculous after all.

At the very least, no more ridiculous than a fat, jolly, super-white guy in a red fur coat riding a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer.

[The Alma Mater]

So, maybe that 18th century Russian relief isn't so ridiculous after all.

At the very least, no more ridiculous than a fat, jolly, super-white guy in a red fur coat riding a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer.

You mean Odin Allfather ?

[Eurania]

Well, Santa is simply a fictional character. He's been drastically change since the "original" Santa, Saint Nicholas of Myra, was alive. At this point it doesn't matter what he looks like because he's used for commercialization and childhood fantasies, as well as being used to quell children who still believe in him.

[Kiruri]

This kinda sucks... Santa's no more than a tool for commercial gain and I personally find this controversy a little irrelevant in the big picture of what really does matter, inclusion and diverse representation.

Also, what tradition there is linked to the jolly figure is more likely localized and varies the more regions you spread to look at. There's local variants of Jolly Santa a-plenty and some are far more representative than the vanilla "Coca-Cola" Santa I imagined when reading the title of the thread. I say all this because big changes to very ingrained local traditions are ill-received at best and tend to backfire somewhat.

The commercial Coca-Cola Santa is probably stuck as is in stone. Changes may happen gradually, for sure, but they'd be probably small tweaks.

Anywho, that said, I don't see any reason why not to switch up the Santa character to something a little more exotic or at least less vanilla. I welcome it wholeheartedly.

Think about it tho...I mean...I dunno...there's a Mrs. Claus so why not a muscular Santa Jr.; the fit 20-something year old offspring of the merry couple or the hot "daddy"-type 40 year-old younger brother of Santa.

[Settrah]

They can't even decide on the consistency of his beard style/length for heaven's sake. Crazy SJWs be asking way too much.

[Hurdergaryp]

They can't even decide on the consistency of his beard style/length for heaven's sake. Crazy SJWs be asking way too much.

On the contrary, it is my opinion that they are not asking enough.

[Settrah]

They can't even decide on the consistency of his beard style/length for heaven's sake. Crazy SJWs be asking way too much.

On the contrary, it is my opinion that they are not asking enough.

How far would you go?

[Hurdergaryp]

On the contrary, it is my opinion that they are not asking enough.

How far would you go?

Maximum overdrive.

[East Germanic Countries]

New to this forum, but I have to ask you this:

Why does it matter?