NATION

PASSWORD

17 million vs 1 million

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

Would you press the button?

Yes (Holocaust prevented, 17 million saved, 1 million people killed in the present including your friends and family)
40
21%
No (I choose my friends and family, 17 million people from the past stay dead)
147
79%
 
Total votes : 187

User avatar
Fedel
Diplomat
 
Posts: 819
Founded: Mar 08, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Fedel » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:25 pm

I honestly can't understand someone who has a loving family that they're willing to sacrifice along with a million other people in order to prevent the suffering of those who are already long dead.

Like, that decision is honestly unfathomable to me when you consider how much human suffering ( both emotional and physical ) goes on on a daily basis. You'd be preventing the tiniest fraction of human suffering ever to occur in exchange for destroying everybody that's meaningful in your life in the process. The ironic part is that the people who'd be willing to do that don't deserve those people in their lives in the first place.
Last edited by Fedel on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:29 pm, edited 8 times in total.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28016
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:38 pm

Fedel wrote:I honestly can't understand someone who has a loving family that they're willing to sacrifice along with a million other people in order to prevent the suffering of those who are already long dead.

Like, that decision is honestly unfathomable to me when you consider how much human suffering ( both emotional and physical ) goes on on a daily basis. You'd be preventing the tiniest fraction of human suffering ever to occur in exchange for destroying everybody that's meaningful in your life in the process. The ironic part is that the people who'd be willing to do that don't deserve those people in their lives in the first place.


This is 100 percent correct

“But remember what we’ve been taught in school. Holocaust is the ultimate evil. I must sacrifice all my family members and friends...”
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Nazis in Space
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11629
Founded: Aug 24, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nazis in Space » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:24 am

I know what these guys would do.

Thread seems like a neat excuse to link this, so I linked it.

User avatar
Valentine Z
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5694
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Valentine Z » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:29 am

Valentine Z wrote:Probably not... either because of the Butterfly Effect, or because the universe will set things straight that there MUST be a Hitler.

- Butterfly Effect. What if you killed Hitler, and none of those atrocities happen? Granted, 6 million lives will be saved. I am NOT, under any circumstances, justifying Holocaust, but I must also say that you now have 6 million and more people post-War, and more mouths to feed. Malnutrition and mass starvation, and looting and killing would probably take place.

- For the latter option, I feel that even after you killed Hitler, it would become nothing short of a footnote in history, and will later be replaced by a nobody that will take the role of Hitler. Maybe this nobody was supposed to have no significant contributions to the society (e.g. no family, average Joe/factory worker, no one would miss him), but Fate would call him to become the next Hitler to make sure that the timeline is not disrupted. This is also on top of the fact that you can't just kill Hitler himself. Remember that many, many of the higher-ups and his right hand men were also anti-Semitic, so either the random Average Joe, or someone else will take the role of Hitler and continue the history, right until the end of WW2 with an eventual suicide.

Again, I am not justifying Holocaust in any way, shape, or form, and it is an extremely tragic event and a stain in our history. However, thinking about the possibilities of the post-War scarcity, coupled with the extra 6 million people (remember that it was already a bad-enough situation for the world)... I would say I can't kill him, lest the chance of the world being screwed even more is higher.

Of course, I am also aware that a fraction of the 6 million will probably die due to other acts of war (aerial bombardments, caught in the crossfire,...) but yeah, this is definitely something that doesn't have a clear question unless we know the future well enough.


Copied and pasted from the other thread. In other words, no. While I am mournful that the Holocaust happened, I can only imagine the strain it would have on practically the whole of Europe in terms of food demand. Remember that people in those days were already suffering enough on their own, so these "not killed" 6 million will put too much of a stress.

Will I be happy that 6 million people are NOT killed? Yes.
But am I worried that this will screw up the future in some inadvertent manner? Yes.

And of course, there is also the chance that Germany could have been taken over by USSR a little too quickly, who themselves have a motive of their own.
Last edited by Valentine Z on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
NSSCRA 8: #7 - Clarissa A. Star || #15 - Jolyn H. Ceeta || #31 - Gwen T. Allison || #63 - Marcus A. Ariel Baptiste

Clarissa mistaken for Smurf/Avatar: 7 31/32
Valentijn called She: 35 1/3

If you are reading my sig, I want you to have the best day ever ! You are worth it, do not let anyone get you down !
Glory to De Geweldige Sierlijke Katachtige Utopia en Zijne Autonome Machten ov Valentine Z !
>>> >>> >>> Q & A Here! | Heights of NS! Add yours now! <<< <<< <<<
• About me.
• You thought I'm a She!
• Eat my freaking tranquility. - Zenyatta
• Never trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
• World Map is a cat playing with Australia.
NEWS: Valentine Z time-skipped to 2070. Colonised Mars, population at 9+ billion!

User avatar
Sefy the Great
Diplomat
 
Posts: 777
Founded: May 08, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Sefy the Great » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:30 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Fedel wrote:I honestly can't understand someone who has a loving family that they're willing to sacrifice along with a million other people in order to prevent the suffering of those who are already long dead.

Like, that decision is honestly unfathomable to me when you consider how much human suffering ( both emotional and physical ) goes on on a daily basis. You'd be preventing the tiniest fraction of human suffering ever to occur in exchange for destroying everybody that's meaningful in your life in the process. The ironic part is that the people who'd be willing to do that don't deserve those people in their lives in the first place.


This is 100 percent correct

“But remember what we’ve been taught in school. Holocaust is the ultimate evil. I must sacrifice all my family members and friends...”

in my school, history's worst moments didn't even earn an Honourable mention. barely talked about.
they didn't deny that it happened, but just never talked about it.
A 12.7 civilization, according to this index.

Motto is "All shall be well, and all matter of things shall be well." but it didn't fit.
reworking history, please wait...

User avatar
Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7757
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:30 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Fedel wrote:I honestly can't understand someone who has a loving family that they're willing to sacrifice along with a million other people in order to prevent the suffering of those who are already long dead.

Like, that decision is honestly unfathomable to me when you consider how much human suffering ( both emotional and physical ) goes on on a daily basis. You'd be preventing the tiniest fraction of human suffering ever to occur in exchange for destroying everybody that's meaningful in your life in the process. The ironic part is that the people who'd be willing to do that don't deserve those people in their lives in the first place.


This is 100 percent correct

“But remember what we’ve been taught in school. Holocaust is the ultimate evil. I must sacrifice all my family members and friends...”


I think we've been down the whole badly phrased argument/outright holocaust apologia route before you know.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

User avatar
Parhe
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8274
Founded: May 10, 2011
Anarchy

6 million vs 1 million

Postby Parhe » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:35 am

I like my life as it is, no thanks. Plus, without the Nazis and related chain of events, there is no telling how long Japan goes crazy in East Asia. On a more broad note, I'd rather guarantee one million people, my friends and family, remain alive by not pressing the button rather than push the button for the risk that five million more people, net increase, maybe survive.
Hey, it is Parhe :D I am always open to telegrams.
I know it is a Work-In-Progress, but I would love it if y'all looked at my new factbook and gave me some feedback!

BRING BACK THE ICE CLIMBERS

User avatar
Quency
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 101
Founded: Jul 10, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Quency » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:37 am

Valentine Z wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:Granted, 6 million lives will be saved. I am NOT, under any circumstances, justifying Holocaust, but I must also say that you now have 6 million and more people post-War, and more mouths to feed. Malnutrition and mass starvation, and looting and killing would probably take place.
Malthusianism was proven false over a century ago.
anti-ideologicalist

User avatar
The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 9852
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:39 am

Valentine Z wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:Probably not... either because of the Butterfly Effect, or because the universe will set things straight that there MUST be a Hitler.

- Butterfly Effect. What if you killed Hitler, and none of those atrocities happen? Granted, 6 million lives will be saved. I am NOT, under any circumstances, justifying Holocaust, but I must also say that you now have 6 million and more people post-War, and more mouths to feed. Malnutrition and mass starvation, and looting and killing would probably take place.

- For the latter option, I feel that even after you killed Hitler, it would become nothing short of a footnote in history, and will later be replaced by a nobody that will take the role of Hitler. Maybe this nobody was supposed to have no significant contributions to the society (e.g. no family, average Joe/factory worker, no one would miss him), but Fate would call him to become the next Hitler to make sure that the timeline is not disrupted. This is also on top of the fact that you can't just kill Hitler himself. Remember that many, many of the higher-ups and his right hand men were also anti-Semitic, so either the random Average Joe, or someone else will take the role of Hitler and continue the history, right until the end of WW2 with an eventual suicide.

Again, I am not justifying Holocaust in any way, shape, or form, and it is an extremely tragic event and a stain in our history. However, thinking about the possibilities of the post-War scarcity, coupled with the extra 6 million people (remember that it was already a bad-enough situation for the world)... I would say I can't kill him, lest the chance of the world being screwed even more is higher.

Of course, I am also aware that a fraction of the 6 million will probably die due to other acts of war (aerial bombardments, caught in the crossfire,...) but yeah, this is definitely something that doesn't have a clear question unless we know the future well enough.


Copied and pasted from the other thread. In other words, no. While I am mournful that the Holocaust happened, I can only imagine the strain it would have on practically the whole of Europe in terms of food demand. Remember that people in those days were already suffering enough on their own, so these "not killed" 6 million will put too much of a stress.

Will I be happy that 6 million people are NOT killed? Yes.
But am I worried that this will screw up the future in some inadvertent manner? Yes.

And of course, there is also the chance that Germany could have been taken over by USSR a little too quickly, who themselves have a motive of their own.

This thread has a different premise (i.e. no right-wingers waiting in the wings to commit atrocities anyway). From the OP:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
If you press the button, you instantly change the past with the point of diversion being that the Nazis never take power. History changes accordingly, NOTHING is guaranteed except that 1. the Holocaust doesn't happen 2. the Nazis never take power in Germany 3. Your own present existence is not erased 4. Up to the present day NO OTHER VARIATION OF THE HOLOCAUST OCCURS, nothing on this scale


So, you will guarantee there will never be a Holocaust -- or any variation thereof. Absolutely nothing on that scale will ever happen. That is pretty tempting.

I mean, you have to consider your relatives and friends. Would they be happy to make the sacrifice? Quite a few people would, I think -- with that absolute certainty. They'd at least give it some serious thought.

Caracasus wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
This is 100 percent correct

“But remember what we’ve been taught in school. Holocaust is the ultimate evil. I must sacrifice all my family members and friends...”


I think we've been down the whole badly phrased argument/outright holocaust apologia route before you know.

I think we have. In light of that, I might even suggest it's arguably imprudent for IM to too-avidly agree with an individual who describes the Holocaust as "the tiniest fraction of human suffering ever to occur".
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:54 am, edited 4 times in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28016
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:05 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:
Copied and pasted from the other thread. In other words, no. While I am mournful that the Holocaust happened, I can only imagine the strain it would have on practically the whole of Europe in terms of food demand. Remember that people in those days were already suffering enough on their own, so these "not killed" 6 million will put too much of a stress.

Will I be happy that 6 million people are NOT killed? Yes.
But am I worried that this will screw up the future in some inadvertent manner? Yes.

And of course, there is also the chance that Germany could have been taken over by USSR a little too quickly, who themselves have a motive of their own.

This thread has a different premise (i.e. no right-wingers waiting in the wings to commit atrocities anyway). From the OP:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
If you press the button, you instantly change the past with the point of diversion being that the Nazis never take power. History changes accordingly, NOTHING is guaranteed except that 1. the Holocaust doesn't happen 2. the Nazis never take power in Germany 3. Your own present existence is not erased 4. Up to the present day NO OTHER VARIATION OF THE HOLOCAUST OCCURS, nothing on this scale


So, you will guarantee there will never be a Holocaust -- or any variation thereof. Absolutely nothing on that scale will ever happen. That is pretty tempting.

I mean, you have to consider your relatives and friends. Would they be happy to make the sacrifice? Quite a few people would, I think -- with that absolute certainty. They'd at least give it some serious thought.

Caracasus wrote:
I think we've been down the whole badly phrased argument/outright holocaust apologia route before you know.

I think we have. In light of that, I might even suggest it's arguably imprudent for IM to too-avidly agree with an individual who describes the Holocaust as "the tiniest fraction of human suffering ever to occur".


Compared to all of human suffering in history ever, the Holocaust is, objectively speaking (terrible as it is), a tiny fraction of total human suffering.

He's 100% correct.

When you take all of that into consideration, murdering 1 million people from the present to prevent a small percentage of total human suffering is absurd and unethical.

Or are you suggesting that the Holocaust could account for 20% of total human suffering (of all time)? Surely not. It wouldn't even make 1 percent when all of history is counted.

He's absolutely correct that all the time, every day, tons of people suffer. The total volume of that remains overall unchanged, whether or not the Holocaust happens or not. Most of it isn't "exceptional" and may seem like "mundane" suffering, but its suffering nevertheless and when it all adds up, the Holocaust is but a part of all of that.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28016
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:08 am

Parhe wrote:I like my life as it is, no thanks. Plus, without the Nazis and related chain of events, there is no telling how long Japan goes crazy in East Asia. On a more broad note, I'd rather guarantee one million people, my friends and family, remain alive by not pressing the button rather than push the button for the risk that five million more people, net increase, maybe survive.


You sir, have chosen wisely
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7757
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:12 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:This thread has a different premise (i.e. no right-wingers waiting in the wings to commit atrocities anyway). From the OP:


So, you will guarantee there will never be a Holocaust -- or any variation thereof. Absolutely nothing on that scale will ever happen. That is pretty tempting.

I mean, you have to consider your relatives and friends. Would they be happy to make the sacrifice? Quite a few people would, I think -- with that absolute certainty. They'd at least give it some serious thought.


I think we have. In light of that, I might even suggest it's arguably imprudent for IM to too-avidly agree with an individual who describes the Holocaust as "the tiniest fraction of human suffering ever to occur".


Compared to all of human suffering in history ever, the Holocaust is, objectively speaking (terrible as it is), a tiny fraction of total human suffering.

He's 100% correct.

When you take all of that into consideration, murdering 1 million people from the present to prevent a small percentage of total human suffering is absurd and unethical.

Or are you suggesting that the Holocaust could account for 20% of total human suffering (of all time)? Surely not. It wouldn't even make 1 percent when all of history is counted.

He's absolutely correct that all the time, every day, tons of people suffer. The total volume of that remains overall unchanged, whether or not the Holocaust happens or not. Most of it isn't "exceptional" and may seem like "mundane" suffering, but its suffering nevertheless and when it all adds up, the Holocaust is but a part of all of that.


That fails even by your logic IM. If the holocaust is a tiny fraction, then the sudden death (note not tortured, raped to death or shot and buried while still alive or left to choke to death with paralyzed lungs next to their own children suffering the same fate) is even less significant.

There's no reason not to press that button. Fuck it, a million is by your accounting an insignificant speck on the balls of a gnat.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28016
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:15 am

Caracasus wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Compared to all of human suffering in history ever, the Holocaust is, objectively speaking (terrible as it is), a tiny fraction of total human suffering.

He's 100% correct.

When you take all of that into consideration, murdering 1 million people from the present to prevent a small percentage of total human suffering is absurd and unethical.

Or are you suggesting that the Holocaust could account for 20% of total human suffering (of all time)? Surely not. It wouldn't even make 1 percent when all of history is counted.

He's absolutely correct that all the time, every day, tons of people suffer. The total volume of that remains overall unchanged, whether or not the Holocaust happens or not. Most of it isn't "exceptional" and may seem like "mundane" suffering, but its suffering nevertheless and when it all adds up, the Holocaust is but a part of all of that.


That fails even by your logic IM. If the holocaust is a tiny fraction, then the sudden death (note not tortured, raped to death or shot and buried while still alive or left to choke to death with paralyzed lungs next to their own children suffering the same fate) is even less significant.

There's no reason not to press that button. Fuck it, a million is by your accounting an insignificant speck on the balls of a gnat.


There is a reason not to press the button.

Loyalty to your friends and family and a desire not to be a murderer of 1 million.

If you press the button, you objectively murdered 1 million people (and as others pointed out, a world war could still occur in altered timeline though no alternate Holocaust).

If you don't press the button, then you're not a murderer. The people who have died stay dead, that is all.

There is a world of difference.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 9852
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:19 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:This thread has a different premise (i.e. no right-wingers waiting in the wings to commit atrocities anyway). From the OP:


So, you will guarantee there will never be a Holocaust -- or any variation thereof. Absolutely nothing on that scale will ever happen. That is pretty tempting.

I mean, you have to consider your relatives and friends. Would they be happy to make the sacrifice? Quite a few people would, I think -- with that absolute certainty. They'd at least give it some serious thought.


I think we have. In light of that, I might even suggest it's arguably imprudent for IM to too-avidly agree with an individual who describes the Holocaust as "the tiniest fraction of human suffering ever to occur".


Compared to all of human suffering in history ever, the Holocaust is, objectively speaking (terrible as it is), a tiny fraction of total human suffering.

He's 100% correct.

When you take all of that into consideration, murdering 1 million people from the present to prevent a small percentage of total human suffering is absurd and unethical.

Or are you suggesting that the Holocaust could account for 20% of total human suffering (of all time)? Surely not. It wouldn't even make 1 percent.

He's absolutely correct that all the time, every day, tons of people suffer. The total volume of that remains overall unchanged, whether or not the Holocaust happens or not. Most of it isn't "exceptional" and may seem like "mundane" suffering, but its suffering nevertheless and when it all adds up, the Holocaust is but a part of all of that.

Yes, while there has been cruelty throughout history, genocide stands out. The Holocaust stands out as man's inhumanity to man. Why? Because it was systematic, mechanised and against civilians. It was perpetrated on individuals (from infants in arms to elderly people) because of religion, sexuality, political affiliation or nationality. It stands out because it was perpetrated without consideration of age, gender, mental illness of physical disability (frequently because of, in the latter two cases -- even the harsh middle ages wouldn't let someone "of unsound mind" -- as they'd say -- be executed). It was perpetrated with the sole aim of destroying human beings (not to convert, not with any misguided idea of "righteousness" -- as so many atrocities have been committed -- but solely to murder and destroy).

While cruelty has existed throughout history, the Holocaust stands out. And to say otherwise looks like a deliberate or misguided attempt to minimise.

And, as you're back:

My point is that -- while the wishes of my family, friends and close acquaintances matter -- the rest of that random million don't. I owe one million random strangers I don't know, have never met and may not care for no more loyalty than any other member of the human race (which is basic courtesy). If my family and friends would be okay with me pushing the button, I can push it (and won't stop because some random guy 999,999 doesn't like the idea).

But, you never answered how far you'd go for random strangers. Are you loyal to random strangers (which means protecting them over others): would you take a bullet for one, protect one in a bar brawl; comfort a random stranger who vomited on your shoe (a thing most would do for someone they cared about, but not a random drunk at the bus-stop)?

If not, why would those million random strangers impact your decision now. Why should their fate matter more than the 17 million lives (the countless other million more in the war) and all their descendants who could have been alive today?
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

User avatar
Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7757
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:25 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
That fails even by your logic IM. If the holocaust is a tiny fraction, then the sudden death (note not tortured, raped to death or shot and buried while still alive or left to choke to death with paralyzed lungs next to their own children suffering the same fate) is even less significant.

There's no reason not to press that button. Fuck it, a million is by your accounting an insignificant speck on the balls of a gnat.


There is a reason not to press the button.

Loyalty to your friends and family and a desire not to be a murderer of 1 million.

If you press the button, you objectively murdered 1 million people (and as others pointed out, a world war could still occur in altered timeline though no alternate Holocaust).

If you don't press the button, then you're not a murderer. The people who have died stay dead, that is all.

There is a world of difference.


So? In the grand sceme of things that's broadly equivilent to a parking ticket apparently.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28016
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:30 am

Caracasus wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
There is a reason not to press the button.

Loyalty to your friends and family and a desire not to be a murderer of 1 million.

If you press the button, you objectively murdered 1 million people (and as others pointed out, a world war could still occur in altered timeline though no alternate Holocaust).

If you don't press the button, then you're not a murderer. The people who have died stay dead, that is all.

There is a world of difference.


So? In the grand sceme of things that's broadly equivilent to a parking ticket apparently.


One word: Loyalty
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28016
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:32 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Compared to all of human suffering in history ever, the Holocaust is, objectively speaking (terrible as it is), a tiny fraction of total human suffering.

He's 100% correct.

When you take all of that into consideration, murdering 1 million people from the present to prevent a small percentage of total human suffering is absurd and unethical.

Or are you suggesting that the Holocaust could account for 20% of total human suffering (of all time)? Surely not. It wouldn't even make 1 percent.

He's absolutely correct that all the time, every day, tons of people suffer. The total volume of that remains overall unchanged, whether or not the Holocaust happens or not. Most of it isn't "exceptional" and may seem like "mundane" suffering, but its suffering nevertheless and when it all adds up, the Holocaust is but a part of all of that.

Yes, while there has been cruelty throughout history, genocide stands out. The Holocaust stands out as man's inhumanity to man. Why? Because it was systematic, mechanised and against civilians. It was perpetrated on individuals (from infants in arms to elderly people) because of religion, sexuality, political affiliation or nationality. It stands out because it was perpetrated without consideration of age, gender, mental illness of physical disability (frequently because of, in the latter two cases -- even the harsh middle ages wouldn't let someone "of unsound mind" -- as they'd say -- be executed). It was perpetrated with the sole aim of destroying human beings (not to convert, not with any misguided idea of "righteousness" -- as so many atrocities have been committed -- but solely to murder and destroy).

While cruelty has existed throughout history, the Holocaust stands out. And to say otherwise looks like a deliberate or misguided attempt to minimise.

And, as you're back:

My point is that -- while the wishes of my family, friends and close acquaintances matter -- the rest of that random million don't. I owe one million random strangers I don't know, have never met and may not care for no more loyalty than any other member of the human race (which is basic courtesy). If my family and friends would be okay with me pushing the button, I can push it (and won't stop because some random guy 999,999 doesn't like the idea).

But, you never answered how far you'd go for random strangers. Are you loyal to random strangers (which means protecting them over others): would you take a bullet for one, protect one in a bar brawl; comfort a random stranger who vomited on your shoe (a thing most would do for someone they cared about, but not a random drunk at the bus-stop)?

If not, why would those million random strangers impact your decision now. Why should their fate matter more than the 17 million lives (the countless other million more in the war) and all their descendants who could have been alive today?


I would not take a bullet for a total random stranger. But I would for family and friends. But that is not really the point...

Because they are people in the present and I'm deciding whether or not they will live in the future (hence its murder if I proceed with their elimination)

There's a difference between not doing anything to bring back the dead (it it means you have to murder people in the present)... and actually killing/murdering people.
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7757
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:35 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
So? In the grand sceme of things that's broadly equivilent to a parking ticket apparently.


One word: Loyalty


Yep. But when the whole holocaust is a tiny weeny deal, then why should anyone care about loyalty? I mean, we're putting things into perspective here right?

If the extermination of millions is pretty insignificant, then an arbitary concept holding you to approximately what, a couple hundred people maximum, counts for absolutely nothing at all.

All I ask is some consistency here.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28016
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:39 am

Caracasus wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
One word: Loyalty


Yep. But when the whole holocaust is a tiny weeny deal, then why should anyone care about loyalty? I mean, we're putting things into perspective here right?

If the extermination of millions is pretty insignificant, then an arbitary concept holding you to approximately what, a couple hundred people maximum, counts for absolutely nothing at all.

All I ask is some consistency here.


Again, it depends on how much you value loyalty. For me its a line I'm not going to cross. I'm also not going to become a murderer for the sake of people who are already dead.

I consider it murder if you cause the death of 1 million people in the present timeline.

I don't consider it murder if you choose not to eliminate 1 million people from the present timeline (and people who are already dead stay dead).

I also feel, on a fundamental level, that betraying friends and family is a No Go.

That's as succinctly as I can put it.
Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts


Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7757
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:49 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Yep. But when the whole holocaust is a tiny weeny deal, then why should anyone care about loyalty? I mean, we're putting things into perspective here right?

If the extermination of millions is pretty insignificant, then an arbitary concept holding you to approximately what, a couple hundred people maximum, counts for absolutely nothing at all.

All I ask is some consistency here.


Again, it depends on how much you value loyalty. For me its a line I'm not going to cross. I'm also not going to become a murderer for the sake of people who are already dead.

I consider it murder if you cause the death of 1 million people in the present timeline.

I don't consider it murder if you choose not to eliminate 1 million people from the present timeline (and people who are already dead stay dead).

I also feel, on a fundamental level, that betraying friends and family is a No Go.

That's as succinctly as I can put it.


Fair enough. So if you're asking me to extend to you respect and understanding for your emotionally led decision, why the constant attempts to downplay the hollocaust and constant attempts to frame people's disgust at it as overly emotional SJW'ism?

This is why people think you're starting to sound like a hollocaust apologist IM
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

User avatar
The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 9852
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:28 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Yes, while there has been cruelty throughout history, genocide stands out. The Holocaust stands out as man's inhumanity to man. Why? Because it was systematic, mechanised and against civilians. It was perpetrated on individuals (from infants in arms to elderly people) because of religion, sexuality, political affiliation or nationality. It stands out because it was perpetrated without consideration of age, gender, mental illness of physical disability (frequently because of, in the latter two cases -- even the harsh middle ages wouldn't let someone "of unsound mind" -- as they'd say -- be executed). It was perpetrated with the sole aim of destroying human beings (not to convert, not with any misguided idea of "righteousness" -- as so many atrocities have been committed -- but solely to murder and destroy).

While cruelty has existed throughout history, the Holocaust stands out. And to say otherwise looks like a deliberate or misguided attempt to minimise.

And, as you're back:

My point is that -- while the wishes of my family, friends and close acquaintances matter -- the rest of that random million don't. I owe one million random strangers I don't know, have never met and may not care for no more loyalty than any other member of the human race (which is basic courtesy). If my family and friends would be okay with me pushing the button, I can push it (and won't stop because some random guy 999,999 doesn't like the idea).

But, you never answered how far you'd go for random strangers. Are you loyal to random strangers (which means protecting them over others): would you take a bullet for one, protect one in a bar brawl; comfort a random stranger who vomited on your shoe (a thing most would do for someone they cared about, but not a random drunk at the bus-stop)?

If not, why would those million random strangers impact your decision now. Why should their fate matter more than the 17 million lives (the countless other million more in the war) and all their descendants who could have been alive today?


I would not take a bullet for a total random stranger. But I would for family and friends. But that is not really the point...

Because they are people in the present and I'm deciding whether or not they will live in the future (hence its murder if I proceed with their elimination)

There's a difference between not doing anything to bring back the dead (it it means you have to murder people in the present)... and actually killing/murdering people.

It wouldn't actually be murder. There would be no malice aforethought; no ill-will towards the strangers. I would be saving lives (far more lives, proportionally -- including their descendants) at the cost of others. And I would be preventing suffering (a lot of pain and suffering: the stripping of human rights, the people who were put into ghettoes and starved, the human experimentation, those who were shot or gassed) for instantaneous death in the present.

It's a hard decision, but basically the trolley problem: is it better that one person dies (immediately and with no stated pain) than six people die -- or more accurately, 17 people die plus all their descendants (with agonising slowness and a lot of suffering)?

I'm not sure what decision I'd take. I'd have to run it by all the people I care about who would be likely to be impacted.

And my question of the strangers is kind of is the point, by the way. You ask us to consider the lives of random present-day strangers above and beyond that which all people (including you yourself) would do.

You may as well have omitted the strangers. They are an irrelevance to the core dilemma.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

User avatar
Berhakonia
Envoy
 
Posts: 248
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Berhakonia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:41 am

It shouldn't be up to me to decide life and death. Any sane human would agree
A federation of kingdoms, united by the Imperial Throne of Stannismarck
The only competent ruler is he who serves his people, honors them like the Saints in heaven, and devotes his life to God alone.
-Emperor Janius XIV Chrysostom, Son of Axeres VII
Monarchist, Future Tech, Space Travel
Supports:
Orthodox Theocracy, Absolute Monarchism, Environmental Sustainability, Red Toryism, Gun Rights


Against:
Secularism, Enlightenment Filth (Locke, Evola, Marx, their ilk), Democracy, Heretics and Schismatics

User avatar
The Huskar Social Union
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39998
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 am

I thought you were done with this IM because it was the most unpleasant experience you've had.
Scary Spooky Leftist #19879417 An Atheist Irishman from Belfast Loyal to Dragonstone and the King in the Narrow Sea
"They fight bravely. They cannot harm our ships but they continue to try"
"Whether they fight or not they know the will die anyway, so really is this bravery or simple desperation?
"
Yeh: The Red Agenda, Purging the Xenos, Not being a prick, Vidya Gaemz, Art, Science, History, Old Gregg, Blondes, Redheads, Tattooed girls, Erecting fortifications, Tanks.
Neh: The Blue Agenda, Being a prick, Xenos, Racism, National/Religious wankery, Zealots, Gatekeeping, Alt-right/SJW Snowflakes, Random lists, Dismantling Fortifications, Cabbage.

User avatar
Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7757
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:23 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:I thought you were done with this IM because it was the most unpleasant experience you've had.


The additional hidden upside to removing the holocaust is that there'd also be no holocaust apologist/deniers putting forward their 'rational, well reasoned arguments' all over the place.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 133265
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:45 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Not really. You can only betray those who trust you, and no one I know has any reason to believe that there exists a trust between us such that we would each value the other's life over an arbitrarily large number of innocent lives. There doesn't need to be any writing.


then its clear to me that the duty of loyalty means nothing to you

Loyalty doesn't mean that I'll favour my family and friends over an arbitrarily large number of innocent lives.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
the riot
starts

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aggicificicerous, Alvecia, Andsed, Drongonia, Ifreann, Infected Mushroom, Maple Sryup, Samudera Darussalam, SD_Film Artists, Serconas, Slavakino, The Blaatschapen, The Greater Ohio Valley

Advertisement

Remove ads