17 million vs 1 million

[Torrocca]

Just going to add when quickly browsing:

I'm glad to see that close to 25% of posters would betray their friends and family members (condemn them to death) along with 1 million people in the PRESENT just to reverse the historical Holocaust

It really shows that loyalty, family and friendship is increasingly counting for less and less in this day and age

I wonder what the magic number is for this betrayal to seem "justified", is it because you're saving 6-17 million people? What if it was just 3 million? 2 million? 1.7 million?

I think its less the number than the fact that people have been conditioned to think the Holocaust must be reversed at any and all cost (out of sheer notoriety) even though there were many other campaigns of mass murder that had much higher numbers of killings and similar/greater scales of cruelty. Even if it means one must indirectly cause the deaths of all of their friends and family along with 1 million people IN THE PRESENT...

It's all very fascinating to me

Saving seventy million people from murder and hundreds of millions from untold sufferings both stemming from those murders and from both the Holocaust and the whole grand scope of the rest of World War Two is very worthwhile, yes.

[Ifreann]

Just going to add when quickly browsing:

I'm glad to see that close to 25% of posters would betray their friends and family members (condemn them to death) along with 1 million people in the PRESENT just to reverse the historical Holocaust

It really shows that loyalty, family and friendship is increasingly counting for less and less in this day and age

I wonder what the magic number is for this betrayal to seem "justified", is it because you're saving 6-17 million people? What if it was just 3 million? 2 million? 1.7 million?

I think its less the number than the fact that people have been conditioned to think the Holocaust must be reversed at any and all cost (out of sheer notoriety) even though there were many other campaigns of mass murder that had much higher numbers of killings and similar/greater scales of cruelty. Even if it means one must indirectly cause the deaths of all of their friends and family along with 1 million people IN THE PRESENT...

It's all very fascinating to me

Saving seventy million people from murder and hundreds of millions from untold sufferings both stemming from those murders and from both the Holocaust and the whole grand scope of the rest of World War Two is very worthwhile, yes.

You only think that preventing suffering and death is good because you've been conditioned, possibly by Hollywood.

[Torrocca]

Saving seventy million people from murder and hundreds of millions from untold sufferings both stemming from those murders and from both the Holocaust and the whole grand scope of the rest of World War Two is very worthwhile, yes.

You only think that preventing suffering and death is good because you've been conditioned, possibly by Hollywood.

This post made by Death GANG

[Infected Mushroom]

Just going to add when quickly browsing:

I'm glad to see that close to 25% of posters would betray their friends and family members (condemn them to death) along with 1 million people in the PRESENT just to reverse the historical Holocaust

It really shows that loyalty, family and friendship is increasingly counting for less and less in this day and age

I wonder what the magic number is for this betrayal to seem "justified", is it because you're saving 6-17 million people? What if it was just 3 million? 2 million? 1.7 million?

I think its less the number than the fact that people have been conditioned to think the Holocaust must be reversed at any and all cost (out of sheer notoriety) even though there were many other campaigns of mass murder that had much higher numbers of killings and similar/greater scales of cruelty. Even if it means one must indirectly cause the deaths of all of their friends and family along with 1 million people IN THE PRESENT...

It's all very fascinating to me

Saving seventy million people from murder and hundreds of millions from untold sufferings both stemming from those murders and from both the Holocaust and the whole grand scope of the rest of World War Two is very worthwhile, yes.

You didn't even have the decency to AT LEAST SAY (it would still sound reprehensible but you could at least have said it):

"Although I regret having to betray and kill 1 million people in the present including whatever friends and family I have in this altered present (people who have raised me, helped me, known me, trusted me etc)... I find that stopping the Holocaust and saving seventy million [insert the rest of the post]..."

At least try to show the people in your life some actual respect.

[Duhon]

Just going to add when quickly browsing:

I'm glad to see that close to 25% of posters would betray their friends and family members (condemn them to death) along with 1 million people in the PRESENT just to reverse the historical Holocaust

It really shows that loyalty, family and friendship is increasingly counting for less and less in this day and age

I wonder what the magic number is for this betrayal to seem "justified", is it because you're saving 6-17 million people? What if it was just 3 million? 2 million? 1.7 million?

I think its less the number than the fact that people have been conditioned to think the Holocaust must be reversed at any and all cost (out of sheer notoriety) even though there were many other campaigns of mass murder that had much higher numbers of killings and similar/greater scales of cruelty. Even if it means one must indirectly cause the deaths of all of their friends and family along with 1 million people IN THE PRESENT...

It's all very fascinating to me

I love my parents, my aunts and uncles, my cousins, my grandparents. I love myself, I treasure my friends, and I treasure the girls who gave their time and snatch to me. But I would not hesitate erasing us from history if it means a certain dark chapter of history never happened to begin with.

I cannot regret something if I technically did not happen, did I?

[Infected Mushroom]

Just going to add when quickly browsing:

I'm glad to see that close to 25% of posters would betray their friends and family members (condemn them to death) along with 1 million people in the PRESENT just to reverse the historical Holocaust

It really shows that loyalty, family and friendship is increasingly counting for less and less in this day and age

I wonder what the magic number is for this betrayal to seem "justified", is it because you're saving 6-17 million people? What if it was just 3 million? 2 million? 1.7 million?

I think its less the number than the fact that people have been conditioned to think the Holocaust must be reversed at any and all cost (out of sheer notoriety) even though there were many other campaigns of mass murder that had much higher numbers of killings and similar/greater scales of cruelty. Even if it means one must indirectly cause the deaths of all of their friends and family along with 1 million people IN THE PRESENT...

It's all very fascinating to me

I love my parents, my aunts and uncles, my cousins, my grandparents. I love myself, I treasure my friends, and I treasure the girls who gave their time and snatch to me. But I would not hesitate erasing us from history if it means a certain dark chapter of history never happened to begin with.

I cannot regret something if I technically did not happen, did I?

It would depend on how much you value your friends and family and whether you have it in you to betray and kill them

[Torrocca]

Saving seventy million people from murder and hundreds of millions from untold sufferings both stemming from those murders and from both the Holocaust and the whole grand scope of the rest of World War Two is very worthwhile, yes.

You didn't even have the decency to AT LEAST SAY (it would still sound reprehensible but you could at least have said it):

"Although I regret having to betray and kill 1 million people in the present including whatever friends and family I have in this altered present (people who have raised me, helped me, known me, trusted me etc)... I find that stopping the Holocaust and saving seventy million [insert the rest of the post]..."

At least try to show the people in your life some actual respect.

How's 'bout an alternative, then? I die, and those seventy million get to enjoy life?

Seems both fair and fine to me.

[Sefy the Great]

You didn't even have the decency to AT LEAST SAY (it would still sound reprehensible but you could at least have said it):

"Although I regret having to betray and kill 1 million people in the present including whatever friends and family I have in this altered present (people who have raised me, helped me, known me, trusted me etc)... I find that stopping the Holocaust and saving seventy million [insert the rest of the post]..."

At least try to show the people in your life some actual respect.

How's 'bout an alternative, then? I die, and those seventy million get to enjoy life?

Seems both fair and fine to me.

whatever life they had in 1938-1945.

[Ifreann]

I love my parents, my aunts and uncles, my cousins, my grandparents. I love myself, I treasure my friends, and I treasure the girls who gave their time and snatch to me. But I would not hesitate erasing us from history if it means a certain dark chapter of history never happened to begin with.

I cannot regret something if I technically did not happen, did I?

It would depend on how much you value your friends and family and whether you have it in you to betray and kill them

How would it be a betrayal? I've never lead anyone I know to believe that if the choice was between them and preventing the Holocaust, I'd choose them.

You can't break promises you never made.

[Torrocca]

How's 'bout an alternative, then? I die, and those seventy million get to enjoy life?

Seems both fair and fine to me.

whatever life they had in 1938-1945.

A good one for the most part in this case, then, seeing as how the sacrifice would spare them from the atrocities of the Nazis and their allies.

[Kannap]

Any particular reason you're trying to takeaway from a thread I already created?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=454880

I've even seen you on the thread so you can't claim you didn't know.

It does seem extremely shameless I must say...

IM's running out of ideas? I never thought we'd see the day.

[Infected Mushroom]

It would depend on how much you value your friends and family and whether you have it in you to betray and kill them

How would it be a betrayal? I've never lead anyone I know to believe that if the choice was between them and preventing the Holocaust, I'd choose them.

You can't break promises you never made.

that's like saying I can never betray friends or family even if I do betray them because I never put it on paper and in writing that I wouldn't betray them

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

This and the trolley problem both have no completely moral choice, as any decision to kill is immoral.

[Arcturus Novus]

Sounds like a trolley problem with an unnecessary link to the Holocaust because... idk, goyim like putting the Holocaust in hypotheticals, I guess.

[Duhon]

I am neither betraying nor killing them, I am simply throwing the dice of history in such a way that three generations of my family certainly would not be.

Without a Second World War, my maternal grandparents would not have moved from Cebu to Mindanao -- my maternal grandmother would meet death there, care of an assassin's bullet, when my mother was but five. Without a Second World War, my father, born as he was on the year of the liberating desolation of Manila, would not be born in war-torn poverty; my paternal grandfather and great-grandfather would not have been among the casualties of the liberation itself.

I am not betraying them, I am giving them a past that did not have to entail losing their lives, or seeing other people's lives -- their own loved ones' lives -- lost to the void, as well as a future that may not include my generation or the generation after me.

[Duhon]

It does seem extremely shameless I must say...

IM's running out of ideas? I never thought we'd see the day.

He was so repulsed at the thought of someone hypothetically mortgaging his present for the sake of strangers living in a repulsive past he had to make a thread to vent.

[Ifreann]

How would it be a betrayal? I've never lead anyone I know to believe that if the choice was between them and preventing the Holocaust, I'd choose them.

You can't break promises you never made.

that's like saying I can never betray friends or family even if I do betray them because I never put it on paper and in writing that I wouldn't betray them

Not really. You can only betray those who trust you, and no one I know has any reason to believe that there exists a trust between us such that we would each value the other's life over an arbitrarily large number of innocent lives. There doesn't need to be any writing.

[Infected Mushroom]

that's like saying I can never betray friends or family even if I do betray them because I never put it on paper and in writing that I wouldn't betray them

Not really. You can only betray those who trust you, and no one I know has any reason to believe that there exists a trust between us such that we would each value the other's life over an arbitrarily large number of innocent lives. There doesn't need to be any writing.

then its clear to me that the duty of loyalty means nothing to you

[The Free Joy State]

You didn't even have the decency to AT LEAST SAY (it would still sound reprehensible but you could at least have said it):

"Although I regret having to betray and kill 1 million people in the present including whatever friends and family I have in this altered present (people who have raised me, helped me, known me, trusted me etc)... I find that stopping the Holocaust and saving seventy million [insert the rest of the post]..."

At least try to show the people in your life some actual respect.

How's 'bout an alternative, then? I die, and those seventy million get to enjoy life?

Seems both fair and fine to me.

Now, that I'd definitely vote 'for'. It would all be a question of scale. One life -- mine -- to save seveteen million in the Holocaust, all the other millions of people in the War and their descendants, and guarantee (as per the OP) that nothing like it would happen.

I haven't voted on this particular question, because -- while I'm certain that most of my family would prefer me to save all those people over themselves (who wants to live if their life was purchased with the suffering of millions and they -- as per the OP -- know?), I can't speak for everyone. That said, if I had a chance to stop the Holocaust and didn't, I'm not sure I could take the guilt.

But Torra's question of whether someone would sacrifice their own life for all those millions of innocent lives lost is a good one, though.

[Sefy the Great]

Not really. You can only betray those who trust you, and no one I know has any reason to believe that there exists a trust between us such that we would each value the other's life over an arbitrarily large number of innocent lives. There doesn't need to be any writing.

then its clear to me that the duty of loyalty means nothing to you

loyalty to family is just nationalism to dynasty.

[Auze]

I would not kill Hitler cause red alert.

There is worse music to watch Poland to be invaded to.

[Infected Mushroom]

I would not kill Hitler cause red alert.

There is worse music to watch Poland to be invaded to.

*Statue of Liberty crumbles

Soviet voice intercom:

"... You can continue to mourn your liberty... OR SURRENDER... AND JOIN US in the Great SAW-viet Revolution!"

[Auze]

There is worse music to watch Poland to be invaded to.

*Statue of Liberty crumbles

Soviet voice intercom:

"... You can continue to mourn your liberty... OR SURRENDER... AND JOIN US in the Great SAW-viet Revolution!"

I see you are more of a fan of the sequel.

[The Free Joy State]

Not really. You can only betray those who trust you, and no one I know has any reason to believe that there exists a trust between us such that we would each value the other's life over an arbitrarily large number of innocent lives. There doesn't need to be any writing.

then its clear to me that the duty of loyalty means nothing to you

I feel loyalty to my family, my friends and to certain close acquaintances.

The rest of the million present-day people in this scenario are padding. I'd have considered the scenario in the exact same way without their presence.

I do not owe anyone any loyalty to those other people simply because we live in the same era, anymore than I owe loyalty to people with whom I arbitrarily share religion, skin colour, accent, nationality, or any other surface similarity.

When you are loyal to someone, you would support and protect them, valuing them over others.

Imagine you see one million random strangers being attacked in (different) bars; would you always intervene? If you saw a random stranger being mugged, would you chase down the assailant? Would you take a bullet for a completely random stranger?

If you answered "no" to these scenarios, you are not loyal to present-day strangers.

EDIT: Or, for a non-violent example Random Stranger #998 is sick (it's possible they've drunk too much) and they puke on your shoes. You are [a] sympathetic or, [b] disgusted? We accept more from our friends, family and close acquaintances, and we do more for them than we do for strangers. The strangers add nothing here.

[Infected Mushroom]

*Statue of Liberty crumbles

Soviet voice intercom:

"... You can continue to mourn your liberty... OR SURRENDER... AND JOIN US in the Great SAW-viet Revolution!"

I see you are more of a fan of the sequel.

aside from spending countless hours destroying the AIs

all I remember was that multiplayer games resulted in either

1. I pulled a super early tank rush and kill my enemy in less then 10 minutes (or use some trick with engineers in a vehicle)
2. (more likely) the enemy at all points of the game just has more gold and more tanks; I die a slow painful death