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17 million vs 1 million

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Would you press the button?

Yes (Holocaust prevented, 17 million saved, 1 million people killed in the present including your friends and family)
40
21%
No (I choose my friends and family, 17 million people from the past stay dead)
147
79%
 
Total votes : 187

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

17 million vs 1 million

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:19 am

It's very easy for many to say "I will time travel and kill Hitler if given the chance to" because:

1. You get to be a "hero"
2. You prevent the Holocaust
3. We've all been indoctrinated to think Hitler is a legitimate target for all of our hidden politically incorrect urges

and most importantly...

4. There is no element of personal sacrifice (most of these scenarios assume you won't be punished, you can return to the present and/or the killing part is completely risk free); hence "heroism" is cheap in this scenario (its not the kind of hard earned heroism like Jaime Lannister losing a hand and being threatened with the loss of his other hand by mean people, but still standing up for the woman; no, its the type where you can take an action without any price, with total ease, and give yourself a medal)

You cannot be a true hero unless you make a true sacrifice.

But of course, we all want to prevent the Holocaust right?

So I present to you something different, a moral dilemma where you will actually have to sacrifice something if you want to prevent the Holocaust:

You are given a chance to alter history by pressing a magic button.

If you press the button, you instantly change the past with the point of diversion being that the Nazis never take power. History changes accordingly, NOTHING is guaranteed except that 1. the Holocaust doesn't happen 2. the Nazis never take power in Germany 3. Your own present existence is not erased 4. Up to the present day NO OTHER VARIATION OF THE HOLOCAUST OCCURS, nothing on this scale

Perhaps another world war still happens, perhaps not.

However, there is a price. The price is that immediately after pressing the button, you resume your life in the present altered timeline. Instantly, 1 million people are killed, this group includes all of your family members and friends.


So then do you do it or not?

Is it not like the trolley problem?

Would you NOT rather have 1 million people killed instead of 17 million? Is it not selfishness or a lack of empathy if you choose your own people in the present over 17 million strangers in the past?

Do you have compassion for the victims of the Holocaust?

Please discuss:

1. Do you press the button or do you not? (trade 1 million lives in the present including all of your friends and family... to stop the Holocaust the death of 17 million+ in the camps)

2. If you choose not to press the button, what do you say to an extremely confrontational SJW who comes up to you and says to you: "How can you be so selfish? You chose 1 million lives instead of 6 million lives. Your mentality explains why so many people went along and contributed to the Holocaust."(as a point of clarification, this is a purely hypothetical character to provide an extra challenge for those who chose not to sacrifice their family)


1. No, I choose not to press the button. I am more loyal to my friends and my family then to some strangers from the 1930s-40s. The numbers are irrelevant.

2. I would in all honestly say to them: "Go Fuck Yourself."
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:18 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:25 am

Image

I think this sums up my opinion nicely.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:36 am

This historical change seems forgiving enough, I’d press the button.
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Riakou
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Postby Riakou » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:42 am

Any particular reason you're trying to takeaway from a thread I already created?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=454880

I've even seen you on the thread so you can't claim you didn't know.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:00 am

Joke's on you, I don't have any friends :)

And my family dies. That means I inherit.

That said, this is just another trolley problem.

But it's too vague on the specifics if you press.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 am

Riakou wrote:Any particular reason you're trying to takeaway from a thread I already created?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=454880

I've even seen you on the thread so you can't claim you didn't know.

It does seem extremely shameless I must say...
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Deutschess Kaiserreich
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Postby Deutschess Kaiserreich » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:21 am

I would not kill Hitler cause red alert.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:25 am

Deutschess Kaiserreich wrote:I would not kill Hitler cause red alert.

But muh weaponised Tesla coils! >:(
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Sefy the Great
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Postby Sefy the Great » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:29 am

tbh i read that title as a "who would win" scenario, not a "variation of the trolley problem but with 30% more godwin's law" scenario.

but, in consideration, i would not kill Hitler. Time travel and alternate dimensions are weird, vague and dangerously forced into the "What If" scenario. you're drawing a pretty fast conclusion to a scenario that ALTERS THE ENTIRE COURSE OF HISTORY.
if anything, i wouldn't kill him but make sure he stays in art school. i wonder how good of a painter he was.

UPDATE: he was a pretty good artist. real good. just looking at it now. lots of postcard images. now i wonder if he painted his own propaganda posters.
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Trumptonium1
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:32 am

Under no circumstance would I choose to let my family die, whether that means killing ten, thousand, million or one billion people.
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Tursvania
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Postby Tursvania » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:35 am

No. Given that killing Hitler would cause an unimaginable hole that coulf end up with a worse genocide by the Japanese/Soviet/Allies,no.
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Aegis Prime
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Postby Aegis Prime » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:44 am

Tursvania wrote:No. Given that killing Hitler would cause an unimaginable hole that coulf end up with a worse genocide by the Japanese/Soviet/Allies,no.


People forget that before anything else the main enemy of the 3rd Reich was communists and the soviet union, everything else was secondary. Fact is that without the Bulwark the Germans provided the Soviets would have steamrolled Europe and Asia even harder than they did postwar as they would have faced a scattered Allied presence without a resurgent Germany to prime them up.

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Sefy the Great
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Postby Sefy the Great » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:47 am

Aegis Prime wrote:
Tursvania wrote:No. Given that killing Hitler would cause an unimaginable hole that coulf end up with a worse genocide by the Japanese/Soviet/Allies,no.


People forget that before anything else the main enemy of the 3rd Reich was communists and the soviet union, everything else was secondary. Fact is that without the Bulwark the Germans provided the Soviets would have steamrolled Europe and Asia even harder than they did postwar as they would have faced a scattered Allied presence without a resurgent Germany to prime them up.

*contemplates whether this is Neo-nazi or not*
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:48 am

I love these threads.

Having no guarantee the future will be as a good as current present, I can't press the button. Furthermore, losing my family and friends would be too much for me, count this as a personal weakness and not a logical decision if you want.
Due to the butterfly effect, the future in this case could easily be much worse than expected.
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Sefy the Great
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Postby Sefy the Great » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:58 am

-Ocelot- wrote:I love these threads.

Having no guarantee the future will be as a good as current present, I can't press the button. Furthermore, losing my family and friends would be too much for me, count this as a personal weakness and not a logical decision if you want.
Due to the butterfly effect, the future in this case could easily be much worse than expected.

god now i want to know what war crimes were committed if i pressed that button. how worse is the new timeline? entire bloodlines met each other over WW2. some people wouldn't exist anymore although that would be an incredibly nice way to get rid of people you don't like, just change the course of history so their bloodline isn't established. people never needed to evacuate Germany out of political fears or otherwise (I'M LOOKING AT YOU EINSTEIN).
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Aegis Prime
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Postby Aegis Prime » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:04 am

Sefy the Great wrote:
Aegis Prime wrote:
People forget that before anything else the main enemy of the 3rd Reich was communists and the soviet union, everything else was secondary. Fact is that without the Bulwark the Germans provided the Soviets would have steamrolled Europe and Asia even harder than they did postwar as they would have faced a scattered Allied presence without a resurgent Germany to prime them up.

*contemplates whether this is Neo-nazi or not*


How does pointing out historical facts make me a neo-nazi?

For me I would not sacrifice my family and a million other innocents to change history. The 20th century was going to be marked by war no matter what, sometimes there's just no good choice.

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Sefy the Great
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Postby Sefy the Great » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:07 am

Aegis Prime wrote:
Sefy the Great wrote:*contemplates whether this is Neo-nazi or not*


How does pointing out historical facts make me a neo-nazi?

For me I would not sacrifice my family and a million other innocents to change history. The 20th century was going to be marked by war no matter what, sometimes there's just no good choice.

No it doesn't make you a Neo-nazi, it's just the... wording of your previous comment. i just can't quite figure out why...
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:11 am

Firstly the Holocaust killed an estimadted 10-11 million people, 6 million of whom were Jews. Moving on.
Infected Mushroom wrote:1. You get to be a "hero"
2. You prevent the Holocaust
3. We've all been indoctrinated to think Hitler is a legitimate target for all of our hidden politically incorrect urges

1. Who cares.
2. That's a universal positive.
3. Hitler is a legitimate target and also what the fuck? I don't think that reads like you want it to read.

Next.
However, there is a price. The price is that immediately after pressing the button, you resume your life in the present altered timeline. Instantly, 1 million people are killed, this group includes all of your family members and friends.

No death god? No Norwegian Hitler witch?

If you choose not to press the button, what do you say to an extremely confrontational SJW who comes up to you and says to you: "How can you be so selfish? You chose 1 million lives instead of 6 million lives. Your mentality explains why so many people went along and contributed to the Holocaust."

Aside from this option being full of stupid, why am I going around telling people that I allowed the holocaust to occur? Or if there standing behind me why can't they press the fucking button? If this option has a explain yourself to other people bent why do I get to live happily not explaining myself for killing a million now?
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:12 am

Sefy the Great wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:I love these threads.

Having no guarantee the future will be as a good as current present, I can't press the button. Furthermore, losing my family and friends would be too much for me, count this as a personal weakness and not a logical decision if you want.
Due to the butterfly effect, the future in this case could easily be much worse than expected.

god now i want to know what war crimes were committed if i pressed that button. how worse is the new timeline? entire bloodlines met each other over WW2. some people wouldn't exist anymore although that would be an incredibly nice way to get rid of people you don't like, just change the course of history so their bloodline isn't established. people never needed to evacuate Germany out of political fears or otherwise (I'M LOOKING AT YOU EINSTEIN).


What may also happen in this alternative timeline is the continuation and solidification of totalitarianism. The 20th century is characterized by the rise and fall of totalitarian entities that dominated much of the world, most notably the USSR and Nazi Germany. These 2 entities, however, greatly hurt each other during WW2.

Nazi Germany forced the Soviet Union to waste countless soldiers, tanks and missiles during WW2. The Soviet Union essentially ruined Nazi Germany's army. With the Nazis out of the question, the Soviet could have expanded much further into Europe and much sooner.

Furthermore, without Nazi Germany to obliterate Europe's infrastructure and workforce, the USSR would have much greater wealth if they were to capture Europe. If this was to happen, would the cold war end as fast or at all? Would there be a nuclear apocalypse? Would the soviets end up uniting the entire world under the red banner? Would something else happen? Nobody can tell for sure.
Last edited by -Ocelot- on Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:15 am

I wouldn't

I don't wanna change the past, for all I know and care the one of the 6 million could have given Birth to Hitler-Stalin-Mao, a dictator that will wipe out 90% of the Earth before being assassinated by rogue gangsters.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:19 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:I wouldn't

I don't wanna change the past, for all I know and care the one of the 6 million could have given Birth to Hitler-Stalin-Mao, a dictator that will wipe out 90% of the Earth before being assassinated by rogue gangsters.

The Mafia Queen??? :unsure:

:roll:
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:20 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:I wouldn't

I don't wanna change the past, for all I know and care the one of the 6 million could have given Birth to Hitler-Stalin-Mao, a dictator that will wipe out 90% of the Earth before being assassinated by rogue gangsters.

The Mafia Queen??? :unsure:

:roll:

...

Maybe...
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:21 am

-Ocelot- wrote:
Sefy the Great wrote:god now i want to know what war crimes were committed if i pressed that button. how worse is the new timeline? entire bloodlines met each other over WW2. some people wouldn't exist anymore although that would be an incredibly nice way to get rid of people you don't like, just change the course of history so their bloodline isn't established. people never needed to evacuate Germany out of political fears or otherwise (I'M LOOKING AT YOU EINSTEIN).


What may also happen in this alternative timeline is the continuation and solidification of totalitarianism. The 20th century is characterized by the rise and fall of totalitarian entities that dominated much of the world, most notably the USSR and Nazi Germany. These 2 entities, however, greatly hurt each other during WW2.

Nazi Germany forced the Soviet Union to waste countless soldiers, tanks and missiles during WW2. The Soviet Union essentially ruined Nazi Germany's army. With the Nazis out of the question, the Soviet could have expanded much further into Europe and much sooner.

Furthermore, without Nazi Germany to obliterate Europe's infrastructure and workforce, the USSR would have much greater wealth if they were to capture Europe. If this was to happen, would the cold war end as fast or at all? Would there be a nuclear apocalypse? Would the soviets end up uniting the entire world under the red banner? Would something else happen? Nobody can tell for sure.

There was a alt-history youtuber from years ago who every scenario he made basically ended in global communist takeover. Every time I hear people talk like no Nazi's automatically means global Soviet state or Holodomor for all of Europe I think of him.
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:22 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The Mafia Queen??? :unsure:

:roll:

...

Maybe...


[from draft of possible OP]

"... the Mafia Queen has tea with you. She says that she can assassinate the Supreme Overlord, but there will be a price. You would have to..."
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:23 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:...

Maybe...


[from draft of possible OP]

"... the Mafia Queen has tea with you. She says that she can assassinate the Supreme Overlord, but there will be a price. You would have to..."

no
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